the human mind is an amazing thing.

[deputy dawg]

That's pretty impressive.  Not only does he try to blame Frank for oscar's ineptitude, but he also tries to give oscar credit for John Groce's success so far at Illinois.  All the while knowing that K-State was better last year under Frank and Illinois was far worse under oscar.  That is a special combination of willful ignorance and respect logic there.  Curious to see if K-State rebounds and Illinois tanks will Frank get the credit and oscar get the blame (respectively).

Question for you Mr. Bread:  Are you a tuck if you read those kstatfans posts and they actually merit consideration?  That happened to me, but I also was at a local pub watching both the K-State and ku games last night.  I watched the 'Cats struggle with a 1-9 Texas Southern, and ku double up several times on a 10 win Richmond team.  In short, the evaluation called for in the kstatefans posts make sense, but I cannot reconcile them to the reality I watched last night.

WTF does KU have to do with oscar Weber being a shitty coach?

Perhaps if you compared what I saw last night with a program that actually plays good basketball, you'd understand the concern.  I just used ku as that benchmark.

[Saulbadguy]

cliff's please.

Your access to this site's forums is revoked

FORMER MOD to getting banned? HOW DOES THAT HAPPEN

[deputy dawg]

That's pretty impressive.  Not only does he try to blame Frank for oscar's ineptitude, but he also tries to give oscar credit for John Groce's success so far at Illinois.  All the while knowing that K-State was better last year under Frank and Illinois was far worse under oscar.  That is a special combination of willful ignorance and respect logic there.  Curious to see if K-State rebounds and Illinois tanks will Frank get the credit and oscar get the blame (respectively).

Question for you Mr. Bread:  Are you a tuck if you read those kstatfans posts and they actually merit consideration?  That happened to me, but I also was at a local pub watching both the K-State and ku games last night.  I watched the 'Cats struggle with a 1-9 Texas Southern, and ku double up several times on a 10 win Richmond team.  In short, the evaluation called for in the kstatefans posts make sense, but I cannot reconcile them to the reality I watched last night.

If you find yourself arguing that oscar's new team failing with him and his old one succeeding without him are a positive for oscar then I think it's safe to say you're the worst kind of tuck; the kind that makes it possible for a guy like oscar Weber to stay employed at Illinois four years too long and to get a job like K-State immediately after that.  oscar is only able to keep on Brucing because of people like that.  He doesn't exist without them.  He is not the enemy; they are.

Not arguing that at all, but the argument that our players are being asked to play a more structured game, and the learning curve that comes with that, makes poor play sound reasonable.  It's reasonable, only if there's improved play once the more structured approach is mastered by the players.  You cite the "time will tell" approach in your post, which is what I'm saying here.  So, I hope you're not the worst kind of tuck, either. 

[KsJoey]

Outside of mainly 2-3 posters, the board over there has turned on Weber.  About time...

[8manpick]

Outside of mainly 2-3 posters, the board over there has turned on Weber.  About time...

Oh man, I almost posted that it would be good if KsJoey posted over here, and here he is

[kso_FAN]

Outside of mainly 2-3 posters, the board over there has turned on Weber.  About time...

Where do you get your numbers, particularly shots off screens. Good stuff.

[KsJoey]

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/college-basketball-rapidreports/21420196/kansas-state-slow-to-adjust-to-oscar-webers-motion

http://www.hoop-math.com/KANSAS%20STATE2013.html

[kso_FAN]

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/college-basketball-rapidreports/21420196/kansas-state-slow-to-adjust-to-oscar-webers-motion

http://www.hoop-math.com/KANSAS%20STATE2013.html

Oh man. I haven't seen hoop-math before. That's a good one.

[CNS]

That's pretty impressive.  Not only does he try to blame Frank for oscar's ineptitude, but he also tries to give oscar credit for John Groce's success so far at Illinois.  All the while knowing that K-State was better last year under Frank and Illinois was far worse under oscar.  That is a special combination of willful ignorance and respect logic there.  Curious to see if K-State rebounds and Illinois tanks will Frank get the credit and oscar get the blame (respectively).

Question for you Mr. Bread:  Are you a tuck if you read those kstatfans posts and they actually merit consideration?  That happened to me, but I also was at a local pub watching both the K-State and ku games last night.  I watched the 'Cats struggle with a 1-9 Texas Southern, and ku double up several times on a 10 win Richmond team.  In short, the evaluation called for in the kstatefans posts make sense, but I cannot reconcile them to the reality I watched last night.

If you find yourself arguing that oscar's new team failing with him and his old one succeeding without him are a positive for oscar then I think it's safe to say you're the worst kind of tuck; the kind that makes it possible for a guy like oscar Weber to stay employed at Illinois four years too long and to get a job like K-State immediately after that.  oscar is only able to keep on Brucing because of people like that.  He doesn't exist without them.  He is not the enemy; they are.

Not arguing that at all, but the argument that our players are being asked to play a more structured game, and the learning curve that comes with that, makes poor play sound reasonable.  It's reasonable, only if there's improved play once the more structured approach is mastered by the players.  You cite the "time will tell" approach in your post, which is what I'm saying here.  So, I hope you're not the worst kind of tuck, either.

Our old Offense was pretty structured and the mental requirements of Franks D is something many ppl just completely don't give enough credit to. 

[slimz]

Outside of mainly 2-3 posters, the board over there has turned on Weber.  About time...

Where do you get your numbers, particularly shots off screens. Good stuff.

I've been trying to find those numbers, because I've been banging the "good luck running a jump-shot offense with a bunch of guys who aren't very good jump shooters" drum since Weber's hire and I wanted to see whether it was actually borne out by the numbers or not.

[KsJoey]

Outside of mainly 2-3 posters, the board over there has turned on Weber.  About time...

Where do you get your numbers, particularly shots off screens. Good stuff.

I've been trying to find those numbers, because I've been banging the "good luck running a jump-shot offense with a bunch of guys who aren't very good jump shooters" drum since Weber's hire and I wanted to see whether it was actually borne out by the numbers or not.

After Rodneys better game last night, it definately skews the numbers from what it was.  But hoops-math is pretty good at showing the comparisons between the seasons.

[felix rex]

Outside of mainly 2-3 posters, the board over there has turned on Weber.  About time...

Welcome, friend.

[KSUTOMMY]

cliff's please.

Your access to this site's forums is revoked

Nice work on the revocation.

Cliff's - the usual, the majority of our fanbase is rough ridin' Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!). Blaming Bruces horribleness on Frank not teaching players how to play fundamentally sound ball. Additonally, giving oscar credit for "teaching" the Illinois players and that's why they are kicking ass right now.

[bigwillie20]

bigpurpleman is a real treat over there, 1/2 of his responses are when someone blasts Bruceketball

"He is better than Frank"

"Go away, we will not miss your fanhood"

[Mr Bread]

That's pretty impressive.  Not only does he try to blame Frank for oscar's ineptitude, but he also tries to give oscar credit for John Groce's success so far at Illinois.  All the while knowing that K-State was better last year under Frank and Illinois was far worse under oscar.  That is a special combination of willful ignorance and respect logic there.  Curious to see if K-State rebounds and Illinois tanks will Frank get the credit and oscar get the blame (respectively).

Question for you Mr. Bread:  Are you a tuck if you read those kstatfans posts and they actually merit consideration?  That happened to me, but I also was at a local pub watching both the K-State and ku games last night.  I watched the 'Cats struggle with a 1-9 Texas Southern, and ku double up several times on a 10 win Richmond team.  In short, the evaluation called for in the kstatefans posts make sense, but I cannot reconcile them to the reality I watched last night.

If you find yourself arguing that oscar's new team failing with him and his old one succeeding without him are a positive for oscar then I think it's safe to say you're the worst kind of tuck; the kind that makes it possible for a guy like oscar Weber to stay employed at Illinois four years too long and to get a job like K-State immediately after that.  oscar is only able to keep on Brucing because of people like that.  He doesn't exist without them.  He is not the enemy; they are.

Not arguing that at all, but the argument that our players are being asked to play a more structured game, and the learning curve that comes with that, makes poor play sound reasonable.  It's reasonable, only if there's improved play once the more structured approach is mastered by the players.  You cite the "time will tell" approach in your post, which is what I'm saying here.  So, I hope you're not the worst kind of tuck, either.

It's like this, I've seen the same thing you're seeing now on the court at Illinois over a number of different seasons with numerous different combinations of players who have all been under oscar's tutelage, and in his system, for 3-4 years.  Guys he exclusively recruited and coached up.  The only group that actually "got it" on oscar's watch at Illinois was a once in a career group of players for oscar.  The rest looked like total crap far more often than not.  I don't care how well you know your system as a coach; if you can't get players to adhere and execute it, then it's crap.  Production rough ridin' counts, not theory.

Could this simply be a case of players struggling to learn a new system?  Sure.  What I've personally seen over years and across different groups of players is that this is the norm for a oscar Weber offense.  2004-05 at Illinois was the outlier, not the expectation.  Ignoring this information when viewing what's happening now at K-State makes you not just a tuck, but a moron.  It's not happening in a rough ridin' vacuum. 

[deputy dawg]

It's like this, I've seen the same thing you're seeing now on the court at Illinois over a number of different seasons with numerous different combinations of players who have all been under oscar's tutelage, and in his system, for 3-4 years.  Guys he exclusively recruited and coached up.  The only group that actually "got it" on oscar's watch at Illinois was a once in a career group of players for oscar.  The rest looked like total crap far more often than not.  I don't care how well you know your system as a coach; if you can't get players to adhere and execute it, then it's crap.  Production rough ridin' counts, not theory.

Could this simply be a case of players struggling to learn a new system?  Sure.  What I've personally seen over years and across different groups of players is that this is the norm for a oscar Weber offense.  2004-05 at Illinois was the outlier, not the expectation.  Ignoring this information when viewing what's happening now at K-State makes you not just a tuck, but a moron.  It's not happening in a rough ridin' vacuum.

Well, this moron had the misfortune to simultaneously watch a good BB team (ku) and K-State play at the same time (side by side TV's at a local bar).  The totally inverted quality of play as compared to a good team was very discouraging.  You're telling me this is a oscar norm, and that our players won't "get it' and dramatically improve their quality of play.  Well, that sucks, but thanks for letting me know.

[kougar24]

cliff's please.

Your access to this site's forums is revoked

FORMER MOD to getting banned? HOW DOES THAT HAPPEN

[kso_FAN]

It's like this, I've seen the same thing you're seeing now on the court at Illinois over a number of different seasons with numerous different combinations of players who have all been under oscar's tutelage, and in his system, for 3-4 years.  Guys he exclusively recruited and coached up.  The only group that actually "got it" on oscar's watch at Illinois was a once in a career group of players for oscar.  The rest looked like total crap far more often than not.  I don't care how well you know your system as a coach; if you can't get players to adhere and execute it, then it's crap.  Production rough ridin' counts, not theory.

Could this simply be a case of players struggling to learn a new system?  Sure.  What I've personally seen over years and across different groups of players is that this is the norm for a oscar Weber offense.  2004-05 at Illinois was the outlier, not the expectation.  Ignoring this information when viewing what's happening now at K-State makes you not just a tuck, but a moron.  It's not happening in a rough ridin' vacuum. 

This is the key information to me.

Looking at the surface the talking points make logical sense. Its no surprise to see K-State's offensive issues because of the differences in the systems and offensive expectations of oscar compared to Frank.

But the Illinois fan experience and observations with oscar can't just be dismissed, especially Bread's since a) he has stuck around here and b) based on his posting has solid basketball acumen.

[michigancat]

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/college-basketball-rapidreports/21420196/kansas-state-slow-to-adjust-to-oscar-webers-motion

http://www.hoop-math.com/KANSAS%20STATE2013.html

[bigwillie20]

http://deadspin.com/5969263/the-15-or-so-most-watchable-teams-in-college-basketball-a-weekly-ranking

15. Illinois. Guard Brandon Paul is quite possibly the most improved player in the country. He's shooting better both inside and outside the arc, and for the first time in his up-and-down college career, he is an efficient offensive player (his offensive rating is 118.0). Until this year, Paul was one of those smooth, gliding players who so looked the part of an elite scorer—good handle, nice form on the jumper, long limbs, springy athleticism—that you were shocked when you saw his mediocre numbers. What changed? This is just speculation, but maybe his new coach, John Groce—a mathematics major at Taylor University who at Ohio was one of the first high-major coaches to pay attention to Ken Pomeroy and tempo-based statistics—did some smart tinkering with the senior's game. Paul's use of the pick-and-roll has become more diverse; too often last year the guard favored picks set on the right side of the court. Now he is increasingly driving left, even going away from picks at times, and the constant movement is giving him more options and better looks in a system that is to oscar Weber's offense what the Apollo space program was to the Wright Brothers.

 

[CNS]

 

Yet oscar's is too complex for our guys to pick up by now.

Pfft

[michigancat]

basketball is a simple game. Way simpler than people think. Coaches are more likely to eff things up than make them better.

[sonofdaxjones]

I clearly didn't give Frank enough credit for his coaching . . . mea culpa.

But in terms of actual basketball talent, he really didn't recruit for $hit a number of years.    Woeful shooters, deplorable court awareness, low energy, low B-ball IQ . . . I never fully understood and appreciated why Frank had to be a complete maniac all the time.   

When you've got a team of I3 grade diamonds, it takes a maniacal level of polishing just to get them good enough to even bother displaying in public.

I see no way oscar Weber can bring in enough talent to run his weak sister/weak knee-ed system at K-State.   Maybe at MVC-Mid-Major Southern Illinois, maybe with a bunch of bon-a-fide studs, but not with this bunch, and not with his recruits.   The talent will need to be much higher, the mix of talent and ability will need to be nearly perfect all the time, or it will be a train wreck all the time.

[LickNeckey]

this same team beat two top 5 teams on the road and nearly made the sweet 16.


and i still have tucks tell me we play better d this year and oscar is way better at coaching offense   

[wetwillie]

Team is not untalented.  Might be the  worst talking point ever.