Recruiting: When you wish upon a star

[catzacker]

So as to seperate recruiting as a historical discussion (here) and recruiting as a curent discussion (recruiting thread):

You can’t look at “recruiting” under Bill through a short sighted lens.  It’s coverage (and therefore “star rating” or recruiting coverage in general) during most of Bill's first run  was not remotely close to being as robust as it is now.  I wouldn’t even call it remotely close to what it is now until maybe 2000.  And certainly not the juco system. 

Secondly, that “recruiting” in those years in which there was no real recruiting coverage produced players that today would have been highly rated recruits if they were coming out today (If you want to debate that point, fine, there’s really no way to definitively determine this)  AND those people doing that recruiting either still are (bob, mikey) or were (venzy, mangino) in this conference recruiting directly against us.  You’ll notice that once those guys were out of our staff and recruiting against us, we began to slowly erode internally.  Instead of Ben Leber backing up Mark Simoneau, it was Matt Butler backing up Ted Sims.  Instead of John McGraw backing up Lamar Chapman, it was Marcus Watts backing up Jesse Tetuan. 

You can argue results, I won’t disregard them, however I’ll point to where those results began to deteriorate and why they did so.  There is a direct correlation to people that once recruited for us that then began to out recruit us somewhere else.  Coupled with a program like OSU that began to treat Wichita as an instate city (again, because of our inability to recruit) and in general teams beginning to play the Juco game (and do it better than us).

IMO, what Snyder does in recruiting, given the CURRENT environment, is unsustainable.  And I believe this based on the absolute wrecking of our program during a period which most closely resembles the current environment.  Even the core of the staff at the end of the first run is here now. 

[steve dave]

we recruited complete studs (actual and recruiting rankings) until about 2000 or so. we had stud recruiting assistants then.

["storm"nut]

we recruited complete studs (actual and recruiting rankings) until about 2000 or so. we had stud recruiting assistants then.

Would argue that recruiting landscape changed around that time and fewer kids went under-noticed due in part to the internet and sites like rivals. But agree the caliber of recruiters did fall off but it was not the sole reason. Also big dog schools started recruiting the juco ranks harder, in part to our success.

[Skipper44]

Instead of Ben Leber backing up Mark Simoneau, it was Matt Butler backing up Ted Sims.  Instead of John McGraw backing up Lamar Chapman, it was Marcus Watts backing up Jesse Tetuan. 

While I agree Snyder has not maximized his opportunities in recruiting, I am not sure you examples do much to support your message.  All those guys were DITRs that came from outside major recruiting areas. 

The one thing the good ones had in common is they had at least a combo off adequate size and speed for their position while the guys above that were not as good did not have both (and in some cases they had neither).

[chum1]

Our level of recruiting has always been about the same and will always stay about the same.  Big programs get the studs.  Everyone else gets the same three stars. 

[catzacker]

Instead of Ben Leber backing up Mark Simoneau, it was Matt Butler backing up Ted Sims.  Instead of John McGraw backing up Lamar Chapman, it was Marcus Watts backing up Jesse Tetuan. 

While I agree Snyder has not maximized his opportunities in recruiting, I am not sure you examples do much to support your message.  All those guys were DITRs that came from outside major recruiting areas. 

The one thing the good ones had in common is they had at least a combo off adequate size and speed for their position while the guys above that were not as good did not have both (and in some cases they had neither).

Leber was a Parade All American, Simoneau was Honorable Mention Parade All American. 

Lamar and to a certain extent Jon, were examples of where the recruiting evaluation was at the time.  Those kids, with their athletic ability would have been highly regarded players coming out of HS.  Both were all around fantastic athletes in HS.

[GoodForAnother]

it would be cool to have more good players

[Unruly]

zacker thread.

[Sandstone Outcropping]

Anyone else watch the replay of the 1998 Alamo Bowl on ESPN Classic last night?

So many freak/stud athletes on that team... Hey, let's stick Frank Murphy in to return KOs, Hey, lets have David Allen play RB for a while... the list goes on and on.

[treysolid]

wow, this thread went places.   

[michigancat]

The 99 class was really good. (rankings and performance)

[yosh]

I remember the pre 00 classes to be mostly garbage in the rankings.  I have all that crap saved on an old hard drive.  Perhaps I'll get motivated to look.

FWIW, I think the "stars matter" people are right when it comes to recruiting as a whole, but...for whatever reason, Snyder is just an unexplainable exception to the rule.  I think the recruiting sites started inflating JUCOs after the Bishop/McDonald/Kelly class did so well, but they still got most of it wrong, and have since become more stingy with JUCO stars in recent years (stingy on the whole actually).  There were a ton of 4 and 5 star JUCOs for a while, but it was pretty random in the results.  I followed football recruiting as intently as basketball for about 8 years.  What I got out of it, was that Snyder recruiting was fairly impossible to gauge.  Again, this is not a "stars don't matter" post.  They do matter.  Just not so much with Snyder.    

[wetwillie]

Why do people think that our 2012 big 12 championship is some kind of magic bullet for recruiting?  Mike Gundy couldn't land a top 25 class after winning the championship last year.  Our staff sucks at relationships and closing the deal, that is the entirety of the problem.  Bill won't hire the people necessary to recruit well.

[OB_Won]

...Again, this is not a "stars don't matter" post.  They do matter.  Just not so much with Snyder.   

I somewhat disagree.  I still think stars matter just as much, it's just that Bill is so damn good in other areas that he can more readily make up for his lack of recruiting.  It's not like he isn't offering these guys, he just isn't landing them so he has to make DITR.  Imagine what he could consistently do with legitimate top 25-50 classes.  I'm just saddened to see so much potential go untapped.  He will go to the hall of fame, and deservedly so.  However, he could have been even better (Dr. P's & MNC games) with a couple great recruiters. 

[OB_Won]

<--SCHEMED!  Pretty good day, Bill.   

[wetwillie]

...Again, this is not a "stars don't matter" post.  They do matter.  Just not so much with Snyder.   

I somewhat disagree.  I still think stars matter just as much, it's just that Bill is so damn good in other areas that he can more readily make up for his lack of recruiting.  It's not like he isn't offering these guys, he just isn't landing them so he has to make DITR.  Imagine what he could consistently do with legitimate top 25-50 classes.  I'm just saddened to see so much potential go untapped.  He will go to the hall of fame, and deservedly so.  However, he could have been even better (Dr. P's & MNC games) with a couple great recruiters. 

He had great recruiters and still failed.  WTF do you call stoops bros, mangino, venzy, leavitt etc?

[OB_Won]

He had great recruiters and still failed.  WTF do you call stoops bros, mangino, venzy, leavitt etc?

You mean the guys that ushered in one of the greatest turnarounds in history, then bailed right before we came an eyelash away from winning said Dr. P and going to a MNC?  Thanks for reaffirming my point.

[steve dave]

we recruited like monsters with the stoops bros, vency, leavitt, etc. on staff. dumbasses always try to say we didn't, we were going up against OU and TX on every kid and winning. stupid revisionist history talking point always gets paraded around.

[yosh]

we recruited like monsters with the stoops bros, vency, leavitt, etc. on staff. dumbasses always try to say we didn't, we were going up against OU and TX on every kid and winning. stupid revisionist history talking point always gets paraded around.

  No.  This just isn't the case.

[chum1]

Historically, we've beaten Texas out for one guy.  And that could be a stretch.

[steve dave]

we recruited like monsters with the stoops bros, vency, leavitt, etc. on staff. dumbasses always try to say we didn't, we were going up against OU and TX on every kid and winning. stupid revisionist history talking point always gets paraded around.

  No.  This just isn't the case.

Bullshit

[yosh]

we recruited like monsters with the stoops bros, vency, leavitt, etc. on staff. dumbasses always try to say we didn't, we were going up against OU and TX on every kid and winning. stupid revisionist history talking point always gets paraded around.

  No.  This just isn't the case.

Bullshit

Sorry.

[Rage Against the McKee]

Historically, we've beaten Texas out for one guy.  And that could be a stretch.

We just beat them out for Waters yesterday . . .

[kso_FAN]

we recruited like monsters with the stoops bros, vency, leavitt, etc. on staff. dumbasses always try to say we didn't, we were going up against OU and TX on every kid and winning. stupid revisionist history talking point always gets paraded around.

  No.  This just isn't the case.

I'd say recruiting rankings (and recruiting in general) was quite a bit different up until the late 90s when people started following it on the internet when rivals/scout type sites became popular.

A lot of guys were players we developed that would be 2/3 star types today.

When I look at the Snyder era All Americans I don't think a lot of these guys were really highly touted guys.

1993 Jaime Mendez, FS (1st team)
1993 Thomas Randolph, CB (2nd team)
1993 Andre Coleman, KR (3rd team)
1994 Tim Colston, DT (3rd team)
1995 Chris Canty, CB (1st team)
Tim Colston, DT (2nd team)
Percell Gaskins, LB (3rd team)
1996 Chris Canty, CB (1st team)
Kevin Lockett, WR (3rd team)
1997 Martin Gramatica, PK (1st team)
1998 David Allen, PR (1st team)
Jeff Kelly, LB (1st team)
Martin Gramatica, PK (2nd team)
Mark Simoneau, LB (2nd team)
Michael Bishop, QB (3rd team)
Darnell McDonald, WR (3rd team)
1999 Mark Simoneau, LB (1st team)
David Allen, PR (2nd team)
Darren Howard, DE (3rd team)
Jamie Rheem, PK (3rd team)
2000 Mario Fatafehi, DT (2nd team)
Aaron Lockett, All-Purp. (2nd team)
Jamie Rheem, PK (2nd team)
2001 Ben Leber, LB (3rd team)
2002 Terence Newman, CB (1st team)
2003 Darren Sproles, RB (1st team)
Josh Buhl, LB (2nd team)
2007 Jordy Nelson, WR (1st team)

Probably the highest touted recruits would've been Canty, Kelly, Bishop, Buhl, Sproles.

Even guys like Simoneau and Newman weren't more than a 3 star kid today. Gaskins was just a freak athlete that turned into a really good linebacker. Howard was way undersized when he got here and developed into a stud. I don't think with most of the guys that we were beating out OU or UT on to get.

[wetwillie]

He had great recruiters and still failed.  WTF do you call stoops bros, mangino, venzy, leavitt etc?

You mean the guys that ushered in one of the greatest turnarounds in history, then bailed right before we came an eyelash away from winning said Dr. P and going to a MNC?  Thanks for reaffirming my point.

What on earth he did the exact same thing with a group of old retreads and mediocre recruiting classes.  Snyders failed on the largest stage and he alone owns that.