Party identification and Kansas State Basketball: Loyalists and Revolutionaries

[ChiComCat]

Not only were we above our traditional place, but Frank hadn't done anything to deserve being ran off.  He supposedly "lost the team", as he did Jake's senior year before ripping off a bunch of wins.  eff "losing the team."  He won.  Every year.  If he stops winning and "loses the team" then light the torches and gather the pitchforks, but we can't run off our only consistently winning coach because Currie/Sprads start rumors.  Its a lot easier to recruit a mediocre guard or hire an AD at K-State than a winning basketball coach, as the stupid rough ridin' oscar hire proves.

[0.42]

don't be ridiculous, he will absolutely be widely accepted if the next five years look like the last five. ie-ncaa tournament 4/5 years. deep run one of those years. winning conf record every single year. beat ku a few times.  i'd love him if he can do that. that would be great.

Well, I consider you to be fairly representative of the Frankite faction so perhaps I overestimated the oscar hatred.

Not only were we above our traditional place, but Frank hadn't done anything to deserve being ran off.  He supposedly "lost the team", as he did Jake's senior year before ripping off a bunch of wins.  eff "losing the team."  He won.  Every year.  If he stops winning and "loses the team" then light the torches and gather the pitchforks, but we can't run off our only consistently winning coach because Currie/Sprads start rumors.  Its a lot easier to recruit a mediocre guard or hire an AD at K-State than a winning basketball coach, as the stupid rough ridin' oscar hire proves.

I don't know how much of the "lost the team" rumors to believe, but that's not why I feel like Frank peaked. Recruiting kept getting thinner over time and that was going to be a big potential problem. That said, I would've been fine with keeping Frank for many of the reasons you and others have listed and only would've been ok with replacing him if we could've gotten a home run hire. With the BTF that should've been possible, but it wasn't because Currie's a control freak.

It's possible to think Frank peaked but have a nuanced approach about it. It's not like all of us who thought he hit his ceiling wanted him gone because of that.

[ChiComCat]

The thinner recruiting is the same as the "lost the team" to me.  If its an issue, I think Frank has earned the right to let it manifest itself.  I think it is quite possible Frank peaked, but we don't know.  He did nothing but win here.  I feel like this is exactly where KU was when Mangino left.  I am afraid that both schools will have similar results to live with.

[Kat Kid]

The thinner recruiting is the same as the "lost the team" to me.  If its an issue, I think Frank has earned the right to let it manifest itself.  I think it is quite possible Frank peaked, but we don't know.  He did nothing but win here.  I feel like this is exactly where KU was when Mangino left.  I am afraid that both schools will have similar results to live with.

I doubt we go winless in conference.

[ChiComCat]

The thinner recruiting is the same as the "lost the team" to me.  If its an issue, I think Frank has earned the right to let it manifest itself.  I think it is quite possible Frank peaked, but we don't know.  He did nothing but win here.  I feel like this is exactly where KU was when Mangino left.  I am afraid that both schools will have similar results to live with.

I doubt we go winless in conference.

Yea.  KU set the mark pretty high on that.  But in general, destroying a potential blossoming program.

[puniraptor]

Posters need to be tagged with a label of their ideological BB standing so we can know what they are probably saying before reading their posts.

[Ghost of Stan Parrish]

Seriously, am I the only who can find Weber's actual record online?  I can't be.

Even if you thow out his first two years at Illinois, he's had a solid career.  He built Southern Illnois and then he rebuilt Illinois with his own players after Self's team graduated.  Yeah, he did have two losing seasons in conference, but he's had lots more winning season.  I just can't wrap my mind around this idea this was a train-wreck hire...  So I guess that makes me a Revolutionary.  Cool.

Am I liking what I see out of the team this year?  No, no I'm not.  (We're 7-1, but I worry we can't hang with Gonzaga or Florida.)  If Rod gets untracked, there's a chance we can turn things around in conference.  But I can't blame Weber completely for Rod being Rod.  He's an above-average player, but dude looks seriously depressed, and he's always had that tendency.

P.S.  Really fantastic post KK.

[CNS]

I agree that Frank earned the right to manifest losing the team or bad recruiting.  I think Frank understands power and manipulation.  He may have burnt some bridges but with the new facilities and a good record, especially with transfers, to point to I firmly believe that he would have found a way around burnt bridges to new bridges to other recruiting.

The absolute only thing that would make getting rid of Frank ok in my opinion is if the NCAA contacted Currie and showed him proof that would have severely, like more than suspensions, damaged our program for in a significant way and Currie talked them out of hit and showed that he was solving the problem by getting rid of Frank.  That said, nothing visible points to this other than some cryptic posts by CC that never revealed anything and it's not realistic to think that the NCAA would slow it's roll without someone at least getting publicly called out rather than allowing parties to go separate ways with no repercussions. so, it's obvious this didn't happen and the fact that some involved have inferred that something troubling was brewing pisses me off more as does the recurring theme of kicking dirt on frank rather than just talking up oscar. 

I also fully agree with the post that noted that basketball was ours.  It really felt like that.  It no longer does.  I know a lot of that is my personal anger, but jesus the OOD is not the OOD anymore(at least not yet) and if oscar is truly something to get excited about, I just don't understand how that building and that crowd went from 100mph to speed bump in one off season. 

crap hurts.  I honestly still am having a hard time wrapping myself around this for the future.

[kso_FAN]

The remnants of Frank leaving, the role of Currie, and the hire of oscar Weber will have long term ramifications on goEMAW basketball discussion, at least through this season and probably longer.

I don't think oscar is as bad as he's been made out to be, I said that a long time. But I also can't ignore the things that are concerns, namely the way he lost a team last year that by all measures looks to be a very good basketball team this year. And the way that he is struggling with a decent (but not great) group of players that he inherited, especially a real inability to make shots.

My expectations for this team are unchanged; upper half finish and an NCAA tournament win. I will continue to look at the play on the court and the corresponding numbers for what they are, and right now I won't deny that there are plenty of concerns with this team. However, I also realize that these players are used to yearly roller coaster rides and with a new coach trying to do some different things I'm not surprised we're still seeing some of that. I look forward to the next two Saturdays against Top 10 opponents to see how this team will respond. And I look forward to January basketball and this team having not just those two games, but a long stretch of practices without classes that will be a real chance for this team to come together.

[MakeItRain]

sys 

He is ignorant as crap when it comes to OSU but he killed it here

[kso_FAN]

martin was a better coach than kstate bball coach is a job.  if martin had reached a ceiling, bfd.  that ceiling was higher than kstate bball's natural place in the world.  we allowed something common to chase away something rare

Great comment.

sys 

[Cire]

John Currie is the bad guy.  Never forget

[michigancat]

Frank Loyalists:

Is it possible that Frank had lost enough of the team to seriously jeopardize the path going forward?

No, you're the victim of a great PR campaign by Currie, the Spradlings, and Suther. Do I think Frank was a dick to players? Yes. Was he he always a dick to players not named Bill or Beasley? Yes.

As for the recruiting jeopardizing the team, again, you're the victim of the Suther campaign. 2011 was easily his best crop of non-DCA freshmen, and Upshaw was his most impressive recruiting victory he'd ever had. If you need further evidence that recruiting wasn't dead in the water, just look at a couple of his commitments at USC:

http://rivals.yahoo.com/kansasstate/basketball/recruiting/player-Sindarius-Thornwell-114666;_ylt=AhXFLbW.4AhldIAPRIdceN3asJB4

http://rivals.yahoo.com/kansasstate/basketball/recruiting/player-Marcus-Stroman-132073;_ylt=As9zaMZiKmCkw16mEapGaX_asJB4

What value do you put on the image of a program?  Did Frank compromise that?  Will oscar improve it?

Frank enhanced our image and made us a national brand. He was on TV all the goddam time. The media loved him - notice how the anti-currie spin came from EVERYONE after Frank left. oscar will make our image worse. No one cares about us any more.

Think long and hard about what your vision is for K-State's Basketball program.  What benchmarks do you have for progress?

I'd love to have what Eddie Sutton had at Oklahoma State, and although we were behind that slightly, we weren't by much. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Sutton

I was fine with Frank carrying on what he was producing for as long as we'd have him. I would like to be off the bubble every year, but I'll settle for worse every few years. I don't know, all I know is I was happy with where we were.

Now compare those benchmarks to other Big 12 programs:  who would have been fired based upon that criteria?

Not sure what this means or if it's relevant. I really don't care about other programs. I think our expectations should be comparable to OU and OSU, and maybe a little higher than ISU.

Would K-State be better off with your vocal support, then vocal criticism or with what you are doing now?  If you feel like you are being fed propaganda, what would be the most effective response?

What I say or think or want doesn't matter.

Would Frank's record at South Carolina and beyond inform any of your positions going forward?  What would it say if he was a success?  A failure?  Had problems with professionalism/players leaving?

His recruiting has already shown the "his recruiting was spiraling downward" talking point was complete nonsense. Simply getting USC to an NCAA tournament before he leaves would be a clear success. Don't care about "professionalism/players leaving". Frank's gonna Frank.

At what point will oscar be given credit for his successes and be responsible for his failures?

If he fails this season, he should be given full credit for it. No credit for success until Angel's gone.

[Skipper44]

I will give oscar credit if one of his recruits becomes the best player on the team; basically Foster = Alec Burks

[sys]

I also fully agree with the post that noted that basketball was ours.  It really felt like that.  It no longer does.

yeah, that was a good post.  good insight.

[the KHAN!]

TL:DR, I get the idea of the classification, but where do you put people who think Currie is/was a complete rough ridin' assclown, and that Frank was a whiny bitch for leaving?

[ew2x4]

I hate everyone not named gottlieb in this situation, fyi. No idea how good he would have been, but what a fun ride it would be.

[StocktonCat]

Excellent post Kat Kid

Just a little comment on MichCat post in this thread about expectations on Weber.  Here is his post

If he fails this season, he should be given full credit for it. No credit for success until Angel's gone.

So if we are going to credit or discredit Weber based on this shouldn't we do the same for Frank?  We judge Frank on 5 years??? oscar on 1???  We judge Weber on Franks boys???  We judge Frank on Huggins boys??  I'd take Huggins boys any day...Beasley, Walker, Pullen...You say no credit for success until Angel's gone.  Well for Frank we shouldn't judge him until Pullen's gone, right???  Let's see ... a 5th place conference finish.  OK for Weber when Angel's gone as long as we finish 5th we are good??  Right?? 

[steve dave]

I agree with that. If you are discounting any success oscar will have with frank players you have to discount any success frank had with huggins' GRCOAT. I don't think it should be discounted at all, though I don't expect him to have significant success with them anyway so it will be a non-point.

[michigancat]

Excellent post Kat Kid

Just a little comment on MichCat post in this thread about expectations on Weber.  Here is his post

If he fails this season, he should be given full credit for it. No credit for success until Angel's gone.

So if we are going to credit or discredit Weber based on this shouldn't we do the same for Frank?  We judge Frank on 5 years??? oscar on 1???  We judge Weber on Franks boys???  We judge Frank on Huggins boys??  I'd take Huggins boys any day...Beasley, Walker, Pullen...You say no credit for success until Angel's gone.  Well for Frank we shouldn't judge him until Pullen's gone, right???  Let's see ... a 5th place conference finish.  OK for Weber when Angel's gone as long as we finish 5th we are good??  Right??

A coach who was just fired after nine(?) seasons a comparable school should be held to a different standard than a complete unknown.

But yeah, if oscar finishes fifth, is solidly in the tourney, and wins a tourney game the year after Angel leaves, that would definitely be acceptable, assuming he hasn't mumped up before then.

[michigancat]

Also consider the state ofthe program when each took over.

[Ghost of Stan Parrish]

Also consider the state ofthe program when each took over.

I'm not sure what you're getting at, but Frank inherited extremely high-flying talent.  You don't have argue "the cupboard is bare now" for it to be obviously true that Frank was better set up in that way.  Frank got to recruit to a school that had just signed the top recruit in the country (and some other top ones).  I'd say the state of the program was at least as well set up long-term for Frank then, as it is for Weber now with the school coming off 4/5 appearances in the NCAA.  (And much better set up for Frank short-term.)   

[michigancat]

Frank was set up better for one year of success, for sure. But not for long term success.

So I'm really going easy on oscar.

[StocktonCat]

Also consider the state ofthe program when each took over.

Yes, let's consider the state of the program and fanbase..Frank came in after a year with Huggins and 3 solid recruits. 2 were NBA types and one borderline ( Beasley, Walker, Pullen ).  Sort of a goldmine for a new coach who had never coached D1 ball wouldn't you say with a fanbase ready to explode in enthusiasm and support.  Would you say never a better starting point?????  Compare this to Weber taking over a team that finished 5th with all the fans thinking he had a goldmine and many thinking it was an elite 8 team or better.  Also consider the 5th place team that ended there because of JO playing the greatest 5 or so games of his life in 3 years and everyone thought that would be the starting point this year for him.  Without JO's 5 games last year the team would have finished lower than 5 and more or less a trainwreck for fans. The question is to be answered...who is JO?  The player who was here 3 years or the player that played out of his mind for 5 games? The team weber inherited was deemed to be the team that finished 5th.  So far that's not the case.

  Let's do what you suggested earlier compare Weber's team after Angel leaves to Martin's after Pullen left.  In the meantime can we all get behind the Cat's like we were behind Martin and see if the crowd and fanbase can help the team win a few close ones!!!  Go Cats!

[Ghost of Stan Parrish]

Frank was set up better for one year of success, for sure. But not for long term success.

So I'm really going easy on oscar.

I guess I just see the program as seeming more "sexy" and "up and coming" to a recruit being hosted by Beasley and Walker than it is to a recruit being shown banners.  But I forgot about the practice facility when I wrote my original post.  So, I'll change my mind and say oscar and Frank were equally well set up long-term.