If only the ball was oblong: Big 12 bids over/under

[kso_FAN]

Texas losing to UCLA in front of less than 3K fans at Reliant Stadium Saturday was pretty great.

[pissclams]

Texas losing to UCLA in front of less than 3K fans at Reliant Stadium Saturday was pretty great.

i love seeing lil' bro struggle but i don't want them to completely suck and go off and fire rick and bring in someone more capable.  not saying rick's not capable, but he could be doing more imo.  3 reg season 'trophs and 0 tore-ney 'trophs in 16 years.  althought their .688% winning percentage is stout.

[0.42]

A strong Texas basketball team helps lend major credibility to the league as a whole. If they suck like they do right now, I can laugh at them and their terrible, awful fanbase. It's really a win-win situation.

[pissclams]

A strong Texas basketball team helps lend major credibility to the league as a whole. If they suck like they do right now, I can laugh at them and their terrible, awful fanbase. It's really a win-win situation.

just wanted to horns-down your post (sp?)

[0.42]

A strong Texas basketball team helps lend major credibility to the league as a whole. If they suck like they do right now, I can laugh at them and their terrible, awful fanbase. It's really a win-win situation.

just wanted to horns-down your post (sp?)

i just tried editing your post by striking out the dash between horns and down and I think I just made it bigger

[michigancat]

they won't find someone better than Rick IMO.

[0.42]

they won't find someone better than Rick IMO.

i will not derail this thread. i will not derail this thread. i will not derail this thread.

[Rage Against the McKee]

they won't find someone better than Rick IMO.

I agree. It would be a shame to see Rick get fired just one year too late for him to coach here.

[Skipper44]

they won't find someone better than Rick IMO.

Isn't UT the job Buzz has been waiting for?

[MakeItRain]

they won't find someone better than Rick IMO.

Isn't UT the job Buzz has been waiting for?

he has a better job now

[0.42]

they won't find someone better than Rick IMO.

Isn't UT the job Buzz has been waiting for?

he has a better job now

  <-------------------except like 1000x bigger

[Mr Bread]

they won't find someone better than Rick IMO.

Isn't UT the job Buzz has been waiting for?

he has a better job now

  <-------------------except like 1000x bigger

I'd like to hear the explanation.  I assume it would be along the lines that MU is basketball-first/Buzz is the number one ticket in town and that they pay him well.  I can't say for certain, but I think it would be easier to recruit top-talent on a consistent basis to UT versus MU; that or Barnes is just totally out-classing the likes of Crean and Buzz.  Not to say they were competing for recruits, but UT has blown MU out of the water rankings-wise during their contemporaneous tenures.  I also assume because it's MiR that it will be condescending, dickish and unnessecarily adversarial.

[michigancat]

Buzz is great, but doubt he would do much better than Rick at UT.

[OregonSmock]

The Big 12 needs to add Louisville and Cincinnati.  If not, might as well just drop basketball and ship KU to the big 10.

[CNS]

The Big 12 needs to add Louisville and Cincinnati.  If not, might as well just drop basketball and ship KU to the big 10.

Man, Tubbs would have a heart attack.  Just when he thinks he is getting away, we reel his ass back in.

[MakeItRain]

they won't find someone better than Rick IMO.

Isn't UT the job Buzz has been waiting for?

he has a better job now

  <-------------------except like 1000x bigger

I'd like to hear the explanation.  I assume it would be along the lines that MU is basketball-first/Buzz is the number one ticket in town and that they pay him well.  I can't say for certain, but I think it would be easier to recruit top-talent on a consistent basis to UT versus MU; that or Barnes is just totally out-classing the likes of Crean and Buzz.  Not to say they were competing for recruits, but UT has blown MU out of the water rankings-wise during their contemporaneous tenures.  I also assume because it's MiR that it will be condescending, dickish and unnessecarily adversarial.

stop crying bread, of all people you should have thicker skin

MU has a huge basketball budget
MU has a better, more enthusiastic fan base
MU has a richer history
MU plays in a better building, UT has a bigger practice facility, that thing is WOAH, but MU's facility is newer
MU has expectations which makes for a better situation for a coach who's a winner
MU cares about basketball, alot, UT never ever will

They both have put players in the league

UT is in Austin, TX well Milwaukee 

Texas is more desirable for Texas kids, but MU has Chicago and the entire rust belt

MU could be as big as Duke, Texas will never be that, all you have to do is look at Florida. UT is in a great city, they have the best practice facility in the world, and they are in a good conference. The Big East was another advantage for MU, it may not be for long but still could be a very good basketball conference if they somehow hold on to UCONN and not take shitty football schools and not expand west. Essentially the non-football schools need to break away from the Southern Miss' of the world. MU is able to pay as much as anyone, you have a very good recruiting budget and have good money for assistants.  The caring about basketball thing is huge, UT has its limits and they are imposed by the people who should be supporting the program and those limits aren't going away.

If the jobs were paying equal, I can't imagine why a coach would want to go to UT over a place that gives a damn.

Oh and yes, Barnes is a great recruiter, UT didn't get the kids they got before he was there.

[Cire]

they won't find someone better than Rick IMO.

Isn't UT the job Buzz has been waiting for?

he has a better job now

Oh christ, he'll come  for 3+ mill

[Mr Bread]

stop crying bread, of all people you should have thicker skin

I can't help it if you're too mean.

[0.42]

If the jobs were paying equal, I can't imagine why a coach would want to go to UT over a place that gives a damn.

Three words: Eternal job security.

[MakeItRain]

If the jobs were paying equal, I can't imagine why a coach would want to go to UT over a place that gives a damn.

Three words: Eternal job security.

Winners don't like apathy.  If Marquette played UCLA at Miller Park or the Metrodome I assure you it wouldn't have resembled what happened on Saturday in Houston.  That was a joke, a complete embarrassment and a ringing endorsement on the perception of that program within the state.  I was furious watching that, I cared more than Texans cared and that's sad.

[0.42]

If the jobs were paying equal, I can't imagine why a coach would want to go to UT over a place that gives a damn.

Three words: Eternal job security.

Winners don't like apathy.  If Marquette played UCLA at Miller Park or the Metrodome I assure you it wouldn't have resembled what happened on Saturday in Houston.  That was a joke, a complete embarrassment and a ringing endorsement on the perception of that program within the state.  I was furious watching that, I cared more than Texans cared and that's sad.

I think what's happening is you're substituting your own values for coaches' values. I bet if you asked a large number of them how much fan intensity or history plays into their decision making, a lot of them would say they DGAF about those things if the price and the situation is right. At Texas you have the city, the talent base, and the facilities to get whatever recruits you want and an ungodly amount of money to work with. Plus, as long as you're not going to the NIT every year and you make a run into the tournament every once in a while, you can sit around and get paid millions for minimal effort in comparison to other coaches around the country. You only have one major power and 3-4 others who can be a pain in the ass to deal with every year at Texas. At Marquette you're just another hammerhead in a crowd of sharks. Which place are you more likely to get fired at? I guarantee you that's at the front of every coach's mind when they're comparing jobs.

Also, if winners hate apathy, why's Billy Donovan still at Florida?

[Mr Bread]

stop crying bread, of all people you should have thicker skin

MU has a huge basketball budget
MU has a better, more enthusiastic fan base
MU has a richer history
MU plays in a better building, UT has a bigger practice facility, that thing is WOAH, but MU's facility is newer
MU has expectations which makes for a better situation for a coach who's a winner
MU cares about basketball, alot, UT never ever will

They both have put players in the league

UT is in Austin, TX well Milwaukee 

Texas is more desirable for Texas kids, but MU has Chicago and the entire rust belt

MU could be as big as Duke, Texas will never be that, all you have to do is look at Florida. UT is in a great city, they have the best practice facility in the world, and they are in a good conference. The Big East was another advantage for MU, it may not be for long but still could be a very good basketball conference if they somehow hold on to UCONN and not take shitty football schools and not expand west. Essentially the non-football schools need to break away from the Southern Miss' of the world. MU is able to pay as much as anyone, you have a very good recruiting budget and have good money for assistants.  The caring about basketball thing is huge, UT has its limits and they are imposed by the people who should be supporting the program and those limits aren't going away.

If the jobs were paying equal, I can't imagine why a coach would want to go to UT over a place that gives a damn.

Oh and yes, Barnes is a great recruiter, UT didn't get the kids they got before he was there.

I look at what Matta has done at Ohio State or Donovan at Florida and see an even better situation at Texas.  Tremendous resources and conference affiliation.  Phenomenal in-state recruiting pool.  You get all the love when you win, but like half the hate when you underachieve at a football school like that.  Football is over come tournament time, so they get super excited if you're kicking ass.  Down year?  No prob, we've got the spring game coming up.  Having a "better, more enthusiastic fanbase" as you put it is a major double edged sword, at least in this context.  I imagine that their constant bitching and over-analyzing at the slightest bump in the road would get pretty old as a coach.  When you're the only ticket in town, the light gets uncomfortably bright at times.

MU hasn't done well recruiting Chicago (outside of D-Wade who was a lightly-recruited partial qualifier) in my lifetime; the guys they get are generally second-tier in terms of top-program interest.  They don't win major recruiting battles in the city.  MU really doesn't move the needle nationally either.  Texas may not have before Barnes, but it does now, particularly with recruits.  Another coach wouldn't have to rebuild that rep, he could just expand on it.  I'd pick Texas in a heartbeat. 

[Mr Bread]

Obviously I second many of 42's points.

[MakeItRain]

I think what's happening is you're substituting your own values for coaches' values. I bet if you asked a large number of them how much fan intensity or history plays into their decision making, a lot of them would say they DGAF about those things if the price and the situation is right. At Texas you have the city, the talent base, and the facilities to get whatever recruits you want and an ungodly amount of money to work with. Plus, as long as you're not going to the NIT every year and you make a run into the tournament every once in a while, you can sit around and get paid millions for minimal effort in comparison to other coaches around the country. You only have one major power and 3-4 others who can be a pain in the ass to deal with every year at Texas. At Marquette you're just another hammerhead in a crowd of sharks. Which place are you more likely to get fired at? I guarantee you that's at the front of every coach's mind when they're comparing jobs.

Also, if winners hate apathy, why's Billy Donovan still at Florida?

Yeah, no crap I'm projecting that what people do when discussing hypotheticals, you're doing the same.  I don't know what coaches you know or which ones you've heard talking but most I know and have heard love feeling the love.  Having passion within a program is very important in college athletics, to say otherwise is just being contrarian to not concede a point.  As to the other part I bolded, what you're not getting is that the price is/can be the same so the other stuff is important.  They are passionate as hell at Wichita State, but nothing else is equal so their passion doesn't mean anything.  You're out of your mind if you don't think Barnes was pissed that the State of Texas embarassed his program like that on national television on Saturday.  I'm sure the recruits watching were equally impressed.

That being said, you and bread are waaaayyyy overselling Texas as some kind of traditional power program.  Fact is there is no historical basis for calling UT a great program.  They had always been an also-ran before Barnes, just another program.  I had a high school teammate play for UT under Penders.  He was in the same class so I was very familiar with his recritment.  They weren't a national program then, not even close.  We were happy that he got interest in and eventually committed to Texas but that was because we were from a small town in Western Kansas, it was nothing like it is now.  There is no evidence that this isn't just all Rick Barnes, Texas hasn't come close to this level of success ever.  Want to know their Elite 8's before Barnes; '39, '43, '47, and '90.  How about Final Fours before Barnes; '43 and '47.  So what we know about Texas is they have far and away the greatest coach they've ever had and no one gives a crap, but the AD is willing to pay Barnes what other top coaches are making.

Donovan has been rumored for several other jobs, don't know why he hasn't left yet, maybe he likes being in a place where he is invisible for 10 months a year.  Some dudes are like that.

MU hasn't done well recruiting Chicago (outside of D-Wade who was a lightly-recruited partial qualifier) in my lifetime; the guys they get are generally second-tier in terms of top-program interest.  They don't win major recruiting battles in the city.  MU really doesn't move the needle nationally either.  Texas may not have before Barnes, but it does now, particularly with recruits.  Another coach wouldn't have to rebuild that rep, he could just expand on it.  I'd pick Texas in a heartbeat. 

MU doesn't need to recruit Chicago anymore than UT doesn't need to recruit Texas.  Its nice that it is there for both programs but you are expected to bring in national recruits at both places.  As already stated this wasn't the case before Barnes at UT.  Buzz's '13 class is in the top 10 his '10 class was #17 and his '09 class was #14, seems he is moving the needle nationally fine.  He is 5 years in and only 40 years old, stands to reason his recruiting isn't getting worse.  I wonder if any coach at perennial national power Texas had 3 out of his first 6 recruiting classes in the top 20

[Mr Bread]

MU hasn't done well recruiting Chicago (outside of D-Wade who was a lightly-recruited partial qualifier) in my lifetime; the guys they get are generally second-tier in terms of top-program interest.  They don't win major recruiting battles in the city.  MU really doesn't move the needle nationally either.  Texas may not have before Barnes, but it does now, particularly with recruits.  Another coach wouldn't have to rebuild that rep, he could just expand on it.  I'd pick Texas in a heartbeat. 

MU doesn't need to recruit Chicago anymore than UT doesn't need to recruit Texas.  Its nice that it is there for both programs but you are expected to bring in national recruits at both places.  As already stated this wasn't the case before Barnes at UT.  Buzz's '13 class is in the top 10 his '10 class was #17 and his '09 class was #14, seems he is moving the needle nationally fine.  He is 5 years in and only 40 years old, stands to reason his recruiting isn't getting worse.  I wonder if any coach at perennial national power Texas had 3 out of his first 6 recruiting classes in the top 20

You brought up Chicago as a positive for MU, I just pointed out that while it is geographically close, they don't compete for top-Chicago kids.  They just don't get them.  The best one aside from Wade, who they only got because all the other big names passed him up, was Jerel McNeal (Rivals #99 in 2005).  They didn't beat out anyone big-time for him.  Point being, it's actually not a plus in their column.   

As to the remainder, I'd say you're better than this, but evidently not.  You're not honestly suggesting that Texas before Barnes is the same as Texas after 15 years of Barnes are you?  What Texas was when some guy you went to school with got recruited is not even remotely similar to what Barnes has built it into, and therefore not relevant to the present discussion.  It is a national name amongst recruits now.  It is one of a handful of schools that is commonly accepted amongst 5-star kids as a possible destination without any special circumstances surrounding their recruitment.  The three years you throw out as achievements for Buzz at MU are down years in recruiting for Texas now.  Did Barnes make it so?  Certainly, but it won't just disappear once he's gone.  He's doing that crap with underachievement on the court (as judged by the very recruiting standards he himself set).  If they hire another good/great recruiter who is actually a strong coach as well, they won't be taking a step back.  Texas is unquestionably a football first school, but they aren't about to let basketball slip in today's college athletics financial environment.  It matters too much with what they want to do in marketing and selling themselves.  They won't accept mediocrity, because it's too easy with their resources not to be.  That and with programs like Ohio State and Florida dominating on the basketball court, they're not about to take a back seat in terms of overall AD prestige.  MU doesn't hold a candle to what Texas has/is capable of, particularly with the Big East crumbling.  They are dangerously close to being knocked down a peg, while Texas isn't going anywhere.  More than likely they'll only get better as the funding disparity grows.