Author Topic: Landmark night for civil rights  (Read 26137 times)

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Offline sys

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Re: Landmark night for civil rights
« Reply #25 on: November 07, 2012, 01:00:58 AM »
The gay marriage votes are outstanding.

yeah, they really are.
"a garden city man wondered in april if the theologians had not made a mistake in locating the garden of eden in asia rather than in the arkansas river valley."

Offline star seed 7

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Re: Landmark night for civil rights
« Reply #26 on: November 07, 2012, 01:04:00 AM »
FWIW, if we're going to talk about this here, I'm torn on this issue.  As a true liberal I feel as if we have an obligation to look after each other & I think that marijuana is a gateway drug; moreso than alcohol or tobacco.  Other countries that have much more lenient laws on marijuana don't already have the other inherent drug issues that we have.  Suburbanites are thrilled for the chance to toke up without being bothered, I'm worried about the effect on the inner cities and young people.

maybe i'm naive, but i don't think anyone in the inner cities really cares that pot is already not legal.
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline jtksu

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Re: Landmark night for civil rights
« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2012, 01:04:56 AM »
FWIW, if we're going to talk about this here, I'm torn on this issue.  As a true liberal I feel as if we have an obligation to look after each other & I think that marijuana is a gateway drug; moreso than alcohol or tobacco.  Other countries that have much more lenient laws on marijuana don't already have the other inherent drug issues that we have.  Suburbanites are thrilled for the chance to toke up without being bothered, I'm worried about the effect on the inner cities and young people.

One neat part of CO's plan was that the first 40 million of revenues raised go to education.  So that's good. 

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Landmark night for civil rights
« Reply #28 on: November 07, 2012, 01:07:58 AM »
FWIW, if we're going to talk about this here, I'm torn on this issue.  As a true liberal I feel as if we have an obligation to look after each other & I think that marijuana is a gateway drug; moreso than alcohol or tobacco.  Other countries that have much more lenient laws on marijuana don't already have the other inherent drug issues that we have.  Suburbanites are thrilled for the chance to toke up without being bothered, I'm worried about the effect on the inner cities and young people.

maybe i'm naive, but i don't think anyone in the inner cities really cares that pot is already not legal.

Don't be dumb, legalization of pot (or anything) makes it much more accessible to everyone, abuse rates will absolutely climb in areas where weed is legal.  And this is another side issue that has me slightly worried, Colorado now will have legal weed and conceal carry.  I don't love that.

Offline Stevesie60

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Re: Landmark night for civil rights
« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2012, 01:12:00 AM »
FWIW, if we're going to talk about this here, I'm torn on this issue.  As a true liberal I feel as if we have an obligation to look after each other & I think that marijuana is a gateway drug; moreso than alcohol or tobacco.  Other countries that have much more lenient laws on marijuana don't already have the other inherent drug issues that we have.  Suburbanites are thrilled for the chance to toke up without being bothered, I'm worried about the effect on the inner cities and young people.

maybe i'm naive, but i don't think anyone in the inner cities really cares that pot is already not legal.

Don't be dumb, legalization of pot (or anything) makes it much more accessible to everyone, abuse rates will absolutely climb in areas where weed is legal.  And this is another side issue that has me slightly worried, Colorado now will have legal weed and conceal carry.  I don't love that.

I'm under the impression that a lot of people have smoked pot at least once in their life, but based on this post that you are not one of them. There is no way smoking pot makes you more likely to use a gun you are carrying, ESPECIALLY when you are comparing it to alcohol. So unless we are going to ban alcohol and concealed carry, the pot issue should not even be brought up.

Offline jtksu

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Re: Landmark night for civil rights
« Reply #30 on: November 07, 2012, 01:13:24 AM »
FWIW, if we're going to talk about this here, I'm torn on this issue.  As a true liberal I feel as if we have an obligation to look after each other & I think that marijuana is a gateway drug; moreso than alcohol or tobacco.  Other countries that have much more lenient laws on marijuana don't already have the other inherent drug issues that we have.  Suburbanites are thrilled for the chance to toke up without being bothered, I'm worried about the effect on the inner cities and young people.

maybe i'm naive, but i don't think anyone in the inner cities really cares that pot is already not legal.

Don't be dumb, legalization of pot (or anything) makes it much more accessible to everyone, abuse rates will absolutely climb in areas where weed is legal.  And this is another side issue that has me slightly worried, Colorado now will have legal weed and conceal carry.  I don't love that.

Not real worried about the people who pass the background checks to obtain a CC license.  Also, you can't carry if you've been drinking, i would expect a similar approach to weed.

Offline nicname

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Re: Landmark night for civil rights
« Reply #31 on: November 07, 2012, 01:13:31 AM »
FWIW, if we're going to talk about this here, I'm torn on this issue.  As a true liberal I feel as if we have an obligation to look after each other & I think that marijuana is a gateway drug; moreso than alcohol or tobacco.  Other countries that have much more lenient laws on marijuana don't already have the other inherent drug issues that we have.  Suburbanites are thrilled for the chance to toke up without being bothered, I'm worried about the effect on the inner cities and young people.

maybe i'm naive, but i don't think anyone in the inner cities really cares that pot is already not legal.

Don't be dumb, legalization of pot (or anything) makes it much more accessible to everyone, abuse rates will absolutely climb in areas where weed is legal.  And this is another side issue that has me slightly worried, Colorado now will have legal weed and conceal carry.  I don't love that.

So are you saying that prohibition of these substances might be decreasing criminal activity, particularly violent crime in these areas?  I would think that legalizing a lot of these drugs would go a long way to preventing violent crime.  It's def. more scary to think about that with things like heroine, meth and coke than weed or alcohol, but I wouldn't say that prohibition of alcohol was a real positive for keeping the crime rate down.
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Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Landmark night for civil rights
« Reply #32 on: November 07, 2012, 01:19:44 AM »
FWIW, if we're going to talk about this here, I'm torn on this issue.  As a true liberal I feel as if we have an obligation to look after each other & I think that marijuana is a gateway drug; moreso than alcohol or tobacco.  Other countries that have much more lenient laws on marijuana don't already have the other inherent drug issues that we have.  Suburbanites are thrilled for the chance to toke up without being bothered, I'm worried about the effect on the inner cities and young people.

maybe i'm naive, but i don't think anyone in the inner cities really cares that pot is already not legal.

Don't be dumb, legalization of pot (or anything) makes it much more accessible to everyone, abuse rates will absolutely climb in areas where weed is legal.  And this is another side issue that has me slightly worried, Colorado now will have legal weed and conceal carry.  I don't love that.

I'm under the impression that a lot of people have smoked pot at least once in their life, but based on this post that you are not one of them. There is no way smoking pot makes you more likely to use a gun you are carrying, ESPECIALLY when you are comparing it to alcohol. So unless we are going to ban alcohol and concealed carry, the pot issue should not even be brought up.

I am not a smoker, but I've smoked enough to know not everyone handles being high the same, just as some people get drunk and want to screw, some want to sleep, and some want to fight.

The weed isn't the issue with conceal carry, as you pointed out drunk people can & do stupid crap with guns.  It's a bit disconcerting to me that you can legally get high or drunk and legally carry a Saturday night special on your hip.  The weed is just another brick in the wall of the issues with these laws.

Offline sys

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Re: Landmark night for civil rights
« Reply #33 on: November 07, 2012, 01:37:44 AM »
Don't be dumb, legalization of pot (or anything) makes it much more accessible to everyone, abuse rates will absolutely climb in areas where weed is legal.

Quote
The Netherlands’s system of quasi-legal retail marijuana sales – steadily evolving since 1976 – may have modestly increased the number of marijuana users, but does not seem to have intensified their use of marijuana or the likelihood that they will move on to harder drugs

http://newscenter.berkeley.edu/2011/09/13/lessons-from-dutch-cannabis-system/
"a garden city man wondered in april if the theologians had not made a mistake in locating the garden of eden in asia rather than in the arkansas river valley."

Offline jtksu

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Re: Landmark night for civil rights
« Reply #34 on: November 07, 2012, 01:44:29 AM »
Don't be dumb, legalization of pot (or anything) makes it much more accessible to everyone, abuse rates will absolutely climb in areas where weed is legal.

Quote
The Netherlands’s system of quasi-legal retail marijuana sales – steadily evolving since 1976 – may have modestly increased the number of marijuana users, but does not seem to have intensified their use of marijuana or the likelihood that they will move on to harder drugs

http://newscenter.berkeley.edu/2011/09/13/lessons-from-dutch-cannabis-system/

Portugal is having similar results.

Offline sys

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Re: Landmark night for civil rights
« Reply #35 on: November 07, 2012, 01:47:03 AM »
Portugal is having similar results.

i've never had so many people desperate to sell me crap as in lisbon.  made me question my personal appearance.
"a garden city man wondered in april if the theologians had not made a mistake in locating the garden of eden in asia rather than in the arkansas river valley."

Offline jtksu

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Re: Landmark night for civil rights
« Reply #36 on: November 07, 2012, 01:48:55 AM »
Quote
The resulting effect: a drastic reduction in addicts, with Portuguese officials and reports highlighting that this number, at 100,000 before the new policy was enacted, has been halved in the following ten years. Portugal's drug usage rates are now among the lowest of EU member states, according to the same report.

One more outcome: a lot less sick people. Drug related diseases including STDs and overdoses have been reduced even more than usage rates, which experts believe is the result of the government offering treatment with no threat of legal ramifications to addicts.

Portugal decriminalized nearly all drugs.  (No country has truly legalized even marijuana.)

 http://www.businessinsider.com/portugal-drug-policy-decriminalization-works-2012-7

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Landmark night for civil rights
« Reply #37 on: November 07, 2012, 02:03:01 AM »
Don't be dumb, legalization of pot (or anything) makes it much more accessible to everyone, abuse rates will absolutely climb in areas where weed is legal.

Quote
The Netherlands’s system of quasi-legal retail marijuana sales – steadily evolving since 1976 – may have modestly increased the number of marijuana users, but does not seem to have intensified their use of marijuana or the likelihood that they will move on to harder drugs

http://newscenter.berkeley.edu/2011/09/13/lessons-from-dutch-cannabis-system/

fairly certain I addressed this in the very next sentence that was cut from my quote above

Offline sys

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Re: Landmark night for civil rights
« Reply #38 on: November 07, 2012, 02:42:24 AM »
fairly certain I addressed this in the very next sentence that was cut from my quote above

no, your next sentence raised the spectre of zoned-out druggies running around with legally concealed handguns.
"a garden city man wondered in april if the theologians had not made a mistake in locating the garden of eden in asia rather than in the arkansas river valley."

Offline felix rex

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Landmark night for civil rights
« Reply #39 on: November 07, 2012, 02:57:13 AM »
There's already a pretty unprecedented legalization movement in Latin America right now, with Colombia's Prez seen as sort of the lynchpin. It will be interesting to see if they corner Obama on it at the next Summit of the Americas and how that plays out in his domestic policies. Well, interesting to some, at least.

But back to MIR's thread, it is good to see gay marriage becoming less stigmatized. For the life of me, I can't understand why conservatives would give a eff about this. Same with weed and immigration. On the one hand, you say if you outlaw guns, "only outlaws will have guns" and then on the other you say "outlaw everything I didn't grow up with."
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Offline sys

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Re: Landmark night for civil rights
« Reply #40 on: November 07, 2012, 02:59:09 AM »
There's already a pretty unprecedented legalization movement in Latin America right now, with Colombia's Prez seen as sort of the lynchpin.

thought uruguay was leading the charge on legalization.
"a garden city man wondered in april if the theologians had not made a mistake in locating the garden of eden in asia rather than in the arkansas river valley."

Offline SuperG

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Re: Landmark night for civil rights
« Reply #41 on: November 07, 2012, 03:55:20 AM »
FWIW, if we're going to talk about this here, I'm torn on this issue.  As a true liberal I feel as if we have an obligation to look after each other & I think that marijuana is a gateway drug; moreso than alcohol or tobacco.  Other countries that have much more lenient laws on marijuana don't already have the other inherent drug issues that we have.  Suburbanites are thrilled for the chance to toke up without being bothered, I'm worried about the effect on the inner cities and young people.

Once marijuana is normalized it won't have the "gateway" effect at all... Or at least more than any other intoxicating legal substance. Not really sure if I believe in that sort of thing in the first place. Some people are inclined to expirament, some people aren't.

I think most people that have significant experience with both booze and weed (personally or otherwise) will tell you alcoholism has more destructive properties or capabilities than frequent marijuana use.

Offline felix rex

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Landmark night for civil rights
« Reply #42 on: November 07, 2012, 05:24:07 AM »
There's already a pretty unprecedented legalization movement in Latin America right now, with Colombia's Prez seen as sort of the lynchpin.

thought uruguay was leading the charge on legalization.

Uruguay doesn't have the pull to lead. Central America needs some big producing countries to get on board and force the issue (Colombia and Peru would be most effective with the US, even though Brazil might have the most regional political leverage).
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Offline Stupid Fitz

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Re: Landmark night for civil rights
« Reply #43 on: November 07, 2012, 06:27:12 AM »
FWIW, if we're going to talk about this here, I'm torn on this issue.  As a true liberal I feel as if we have an obligation to look after each other & I think that marijuana is a gateway drug; moreso than alcohol or tobacco.  Other countries that have much more lenient laws on marijuana don't already have the other inherent drug issues that we have.  Suburbanites are thrilled for the chance to toke up without being bothered, I'm worried about the effect on the inner cities and young people.

One neat part of CO's plan was that the first 40 million of revenues raised go to education.  So that's good.

LOL, yep that will happen just like the lottery, casinos, cigarette taxes, etc. 

Offline "storm"nut

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Re: Landmark night for civil rights
« Reply #44 on: November 07, 2012, 08:24:39 AM »
Grats to Maine, Maryland, Minnesota, & Washington  :D

I'm still not a fan of having civil rights up to popular vote, but tonight I'm a little less cynical.

BTW how could Minnesota vote for this and Michele Bachmann?  Well she'll win an election but may lose her husband.  She may no longer be a beard.

My personal beliefs is that Gay Marriage is wrong but I let that blind me to the fact that Government has not business telling people who they can marries, or even how many (yea, Mormons and Muslims). At the same time government should but out of my faith. The more and more I think about it, I think I need to switch parties.
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Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Landmark night for civil rights
« Reply #45 on: November 07, 2012, 08:56:40 AM »
:shakesfist: MINNESOTA :curse:




Oh also nice job Cali on somewhat fixing that ridiculous 3 strikes law

Offline Bloodfart

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Re: Landmark night for civil rights
« Reply #46 on: November 07, 2012, 09:10:07 AM »
HEY GUYS! Salina hates gays and lesbians.  Saline County voted in favor of repealing legislation to protect gay & lesbian rights.

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Re: Landmark night for civil rights
« Reply #47 on: November 07, 2012, 09:18:21 AM »
HEY GUYS! Salina hates gays and lesbians.  Saline County voted in favor of repealing legislation to protect gay & lesbian rights.

Truth be know, why should the government tell people who to not hate and place specific groups of people above others. Of course its wrong to hate on people just because of their race, sex, or etc but I don't need the government making it illegal. Get off my eff lawn Government.
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Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Landmark night for civil rights
« Reply #48 on: November 07, 2012, 09:24:30 AM »
HEY GUYS! Salina hates gays and lesbians.  Saline County voted in favor of repealing legislation to protect gay & lesbian rights.

Saying Salina and Hutchinson hates gays is a bit shortsighted.  They both had anti-discrimination ordinances on the books but the citizens of the cities used legal measures to force votes on civil rights.  As disappointing as those two votes turned out to be, its largely ceremonial and will be even less relevant very soon.

This article is why the majority shouldn't be trusted with the rights of minority groups.  This Keith Waggoner guy is possibly the worst person ever, he doesn't hide his hate well despite his efforts to do so.

http://www.kansas.com/2012/11/07/2558845/opposition-leads-in-early-returns.html#storylink=omni_popular

Gay-rights measures fail in Hutch, Salina
BY ROY WENZL
The Wichita Eagle
Voters in Salina and Hutchinson rejected ordinances offering legal protection from discrimination to members of the gay community.
At 10 p.m. Tuesday, with about 80 percent of the vote counted, Awaken Hutchinson, which had fought the anti-discrimination measure saying it was unnecessary, declared victory. The proposed ordinance was defeated, 58 to 42 percent. “It’s looking like a good, clean win,” said Paul Waggoner, a businessman who helped lead the effort against the anti-discrimination ordinance.
“It’s clear we have a lot more educating to do,” said Jon Powell, who, along with the Kansas Equality Coalition, led the group that tried to get the issue passed.
In Salina, voters repealed a five-month-old ordinance that had given legal protection to gay and lesbian residents. Unofficial results show the ordinance was repealed 54 to 46 percent.
It had required landlords, any vendor who works for the city, and city parks and buildings to adhere to the anti-discrimination policy.
In Hutchinson, Powell, who has led the effort to gain protections for gay people in the workplace, housing and public places, argued that the ballot measure would prevent people from being fired or having landlords refuse to rent to them because of their sexual orientation.
But Waggoner and others argued that people already have all the protections they need under current state and local laws. And with Hutchinson’s long history of people being good to each other, including people who are different, many wondered why it was necessary to put the community through a wrenching, divisive campaign, Waggoner said.
It has made sense in the past to enact government laws to protect the disabled, Waggoner said, and to protect people from discrimination because of race or ethnic origin. But those are classes of people, he said. “But sexual behavior is a personal characteristic, not a class,” he said. “It would be terrible public policy to treat it as such.”
It would ensnare employers in yet one more slippery regulation, he said. It would open a danger to employers of being sued if they said anything that could be construed as critical of gays, including if they uttered the criticism in the context of voicing their religious beliefs, or in voicing opinions that freedom of speech entitles them to make, he said.
Waggoner posed a question that he said Powell and the rest of the Kansas Equality Coalition never adequately answered: Why was the ballot issue and the rancor it caused even necessary, considering how decent and welcoming that Hutchinson residents are to each other? “There is an absolute zero history here of anyone being harmed because of their sexual orientation,” Waggoner said.
But Powell, who is openly gay, said that is not true. And he said he would not relate any specific stories of persecution or discrimination because there are no protections in the state of Kansas or the city of Hutchinson for people who have been persecuted, or taunted, or evicted, or fired. That fear hampered them throughout the months that the two sides argued, Powell said. Most of the stories he’s heard, he said, are coming from people who don’t want anyone else to know — because they have none of the protections the ballot issue would have given them.
A few minutes after Powell and his group conceded defeat, President Obama was declared the winner by a national TV network. “Thank God,” Powell said. “That’s how we’re going to get our rights now.”
Little common ground

In the run-up to the election in Hutchinson, neither side found much common ground.
“Both sides talked past each other,” Waggoner said. “It was as though they were speaking two languages mutually incomprehensible, like Greek and German.”
The two sides disagreed strenuously; both were surprised at the level of anger they saw and said the rancor was startling.
Waggoner said Hutchinson is known for its neighborliness. Though Powell did not agree with nearly anything else Waggoner and his allies have said, Powell agreed with that. Powell said that he’d never personally felt discriminated against in his hometown, although he said he hadn’t lived in Hutchinson for all 47 of his years.
“Hutchinson really is a good town with lots of good people in it,” he said.
But neighborliness may be diminished now. People from both sides said cruel, insensitive things and carped over every detail, including, in recent days, theft of political yard signs advocating for differing freedoms. "Vote Yes – for fairness." "Vote No – Protect religious liberty."
“The Kansans Equality Coalition pitch has been “Oh, poor us, we are so persecuted,” Waggoner said. “But I’ve lost count of the yard signs stolen from our side, probably close to 150. And that involves criminal trespass, theft — and a low-grade form of bullying.”
But Powell said his side lost a lot of yard signs too, and that most of the gay-rights group is made up of people in their 40s who are not in any physical shape to go running through yards and stealing.
Other cities

Twenty-one states and 400 cities have measures offering protection to gay and lesbian residents. The federal government offers no such protections.
The Salina City Commission passed an ordinance in May, and it went into effect in June, providing protection from discrimination. However, petitions were circulated over the summer calling for the city either to repeal the ordinance or put it on the ballot.
Voter turnout in Salina was good, driven in part by the repeal effort, said Saline County clerk Don Merriman.
Lawrence is the only city in Kansas with a blanket anti-discrimination ordinance shielding the lesbian and gay community.
Wichita City Council members were asked in the spring to consider a similar ordinance that would broaden gay, lesbian and bisexual rights. But there is little sentiment on the council to take it up. Vice Mayor Janet Miller said the ordinance is not needed because she believes it would duplicate state law, and issues governed by the Kansas Human Rights Commission.
Contributing: Bill Wilson and Fred Mann of The Wichita Eagle

© 2012 Wichita Eagle and wire service sources. All Rights Reserved. http://www.kansas.com

Read more here: http://www.kansas.com/2012/11/07/v-print/2558845/opposition-leads-in-early-returns.html#storylink=cpy

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Landmark night for civil rights
« Reply #49 on: November 07, 2012, 09:30:48 AM »
HEY GUYS! Salina hates gays and lesbians.  Saline County voted in favor of repealing legislation to protect gay & lesbian rights.

Truth be know, why should the government tell people who to not hate and place specific groups of people above others. Of course its wrong to hate on people just because of their race, sex, or etc but I don't need the government making it illegal. Get off my eff lawn Government.

The government isn't telling you who to hate, they're telling you not to discriminate.  The country was founded on this basic principle, read the bill of rights at some point.

Attitudes like this are again why people shouldn't be trusted with the rights of others.  65% of Americans literally aren't smart enough to understand this stuff.  It's offensive that morons like stormnut has the same weight that I do.  Thankfully dummies generally keep to themselves and those of us that are informed can work and be agents for change.