Author Topic: Those damn liberal activist framers of the Constitution  (Read 2152 times)

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Offline ednksu

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http://www.tnr.com/print/article/politics/102620/individual-mandate-history-affordable-care-act

If Health Insurance Mandates Are Unconstitutional, Why Did the Founding Fathers Back Them?
Einer Elhauge April 13, 2012 | 12:00 am

In making the legal case against Obamacare’s individual mandate, challengers have argued that the framers of our Constitution would certainly have found such a measure to be unconstitutional. Nevermind that nothing in the text or history of the Constitution’s Commerce Clause indicates that Congress cannot mandate commercial purchases. The framers, challengers have claimed, thought a constitutional ban on purchase mandates was too “obvious” to mention. Their core basis for this claim is that purchase mandates are unprecedented, which they say would not be the case if it was understood this power existed.

But there’s a major problem with this line of argument: It just isn’t true. The founding fathers, it turns out, passed several mandates of their own. In 1790, the very first Congress—which incidentally included 20 framers—passed a law that included a mandate: namely, a requirement that ship owners buy medical insurance for their seamen. This law was then signed by another framer: President George Washington. That’s right, the father of our country had no difficulty imposing a health insurance mandate.

That’s not all. In 1792, a Congress with 17 framers passed another statute that required all able-bodied men to buy firearms. Yes, we used to have not only a right to bear arms, but a federal duty to buy them. Four framers voted against this bill, but the others did not, and it was also signed by Washington. Some tried to repeal this gun purchase mandate on the grounds it was too onerous, but only one framer voted to repeal it.

Six years later, in 1798, Congress addressed the problem that the employer mandate to buy medical insurance for seamen covered drugs and physician services but not hospital stays. And you know what this Congress, with five framers serving in it, did? It enacted a federal law requiring the seamen to buy hospital insurance for themselves. That’s right, Congress enacted an individual mandate requiring the purchase of health insurance. And this act was signed by another founder, President John Adams.

Not only did most framers support these federal mandates to buy firearms and health insurance, but there is no evidence that any of the few framers who voted against these mandates ever objected on constitutional grounds. Presumably one would have done so if there was some unstated original understanding that such federal mandates were unconstitutional. Moreover, no one thought these past purchase mandates were problematic enough to challenge legally.

True, one could try to distinguish these other federal mandates from the Affordable Care Act mandate. One could argue that the laws for seamen and ship owners mandated purchases from people who were already engaged in some commerce. But that is no less true of everyone subject to the health-insurance mandate: Indeed, virtually all of us get some health care every five years, and the few exceptions could hardly justify invalidating all applications of the statute. One could also argue (as the challengers did) that activity in the health care market isn’t enough to justify a purchase mandate in the separate health insurance market. But the early mandates required shippers and seamen to buy health insurance without showing they were active in any market for health insurance or even health care, which was far more rare back then.

Nor do any of these attempted distinctions explain away the mandate to buy guns, which was not limited to persons engaged in commerce. One might try the different distinction that the gun purchase mandate was adopted under the militia clause rather than the commerce clause. But that misses the point: This precedent (like the others) disproves the challengers’ claim that the framers had some general unspoken understanding against purchase mandates.

In oral arguments before the court two weeks ago, the challengers also argued that the health insurance mandate was not “proper” in a way that allows it to be justified under the Necessary and Proper Clause. These precedents rebut that claim because they indicate that the framers thought not just purchase mandates but medical insurance mandates were perfectly proper indeed.

Einer Elhauge is a professor at Harvard Law School. He joined an amicus brief supporting the constitutionality of the mandate.

Correction: This article originally identified John Adams as a framer. It should have identified him as a founder, since he was not at the constitutional convention. We regret the error.


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Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Those damn liberal activist framers of the Constitution
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2012, 07:08:09 PM »
That's interesting and hilarious, but I honestly still do not care about what the founding fathers' opinion would have been on any modern issue, and I cannot fathom why anybody else does.

Offline p1k3

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Re: Those damn liberal activist framers of the Constitution
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2012, 07:33:06 PM »
That's interesting and hilarious, but I honestly still do not care about what the founding fathers' opinion would have been on any modern issue, and I cannot fathom why anybody else does.

this. Opining for the founding fathers on stuff like this is the most Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) thing anyone can do.

Offline SdK

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Re: Those damn liberal activist framers of the Constitution
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2012, 07:36:02 PM »
I agree with the two previous replies.

Offline ednksu

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Re: Those damn liberal activist framers of the Constitution
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2012, 08:09:28 PM »
so we should just scrap constitutional law?
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Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Those damn liberal activist framers of the Constitution
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2012, 09:09:12 AM »
so we should just scrap constitutional law?

We should go by what is actually written in the constitution, not try to create arguments based upon what some old white men from the 1700s would have thought about any particular issue.

Some people treat the founding fathers like religious figures.

Offline HeinBallz

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Re: Those damn liberal activist framers of the Constitution
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2012, 04:06:39 PM »
I think it's important to note that the founding fathers disagreed on a LOT.  You have to remember they were just escaping large government and a lot of their principles by some of the framers of the constitution were not that far removed from the British rule.   I think of it like Ron Paul people combining forces with Santorum people - because they're both fighting to keep a conservative viewpoint alive.   Ron Pauls people wanting to be fiscally conservative and Santorums people wanting to be socially conservative.  Two groups of people that I would consider polar opposite - yet drawn together through a common enemy. 

Regardless, I found the article amusing and would rather justify Obamacare as a gigantic pile of crap for hundreds of other reasons than it being "unconstitutional". 

People screaming that it's unconstitutional are just ignorant and trying to find some argument for their side of the debate.  This article seems to mirror the stupidity by justifying an ignorant statement with an ignorant response.   
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Offline john "teach me how to" dougie

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Re: Those damn liberal activist framers of the Constitution
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2012, 04:37:23 PM »
I think it's important to note that the founding fathers disagreed on a LOT.  You have to remember they were just escaping large government and a lot of their principles by some of the framers of the constitution were not that far removed from the British rule.   I think of it like Ron Paul people combining forces with Santorum people - because they're both fighting to keep a conservative viewpoint alive.   Ron Pauls people wanting to be fiscally conservative and Santorums people wanting to be socially conservative.  Two groups of people that I would consider polar opposite - yet drawn together through a common enemy. 

Regardless, I found the article amusing and would rather justify Obamacare as a gigantic pile of crap for hundreds of other reasons than it being "unconstitutional". 

People screaming that it's unconstitutional are just ignorant and trying to find some argument for their side of the debate.  This article seems to mirror the stupidity by justifying an ignorant statement with an ignorant response.

The editorial is pretty hilarious in that he is claiming that regulations over a small group of employers, in a dangerous business, or, that drafting the populous to defend the country because there was no real military, could some how equate to forcing 250 million to buy health insurance. Obama must have aced his class at Harvard.

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Re: Those damn liberal activist framers of the Constitution
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2012, 07:52:29 PM »
 :lol:

I'm sure there are no examples of the framers and founders going the exact opposite way.  Goodness, what a maroon.

Wonder which state those ships were in? Wonder how many state and local ordinances are preempted by that mandatory gun law.

LoL this thread is elitely Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!).
 :lol:
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Offline ednksu

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Re: Those damn liberal activist framers of the Constitution
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2012, 11:39:10 AM »
I think it's important to note that the founding fathers disagreed on a LOT.  You have to remember they were just escaping large government and a lot of their principles by some of the framers of the constitution were not that far removed from the British rule.   I think of it like Ron Paul people combining forces with Santorum people - because they're both fighting to keep a conservative viewpoint alive.   Ron Pauls people wanting to be fiscally conservative and Santorums people wanting to be socially conservative.  Two groups of people that I would consider polar opposite - yet drawn together through a common enemy. 

Regardless, I found the article amusing and would rather justify Obamacare as a gigantic pile of crap for hundreds of other reasons than it being "unconstitutional". 

People screaming that it's unconstitutional are just ignorant and trying to find some argument for their side of the debate.  This article seems to mirror the stupidity by justifying an ignorant statement with an ignorant response.

The editorial is pretty hilarious in that he is claiming that regulations over a small group of employers, in a dangerous business, or, that drafting the populous to defend the country because there was no real military, could some how equate to forcing 250 million to buy health insurance. Obama must have aced his class at Harvard.
you are right about the first part.  Nearly totally wrong about the second. 

That's interesting and hilarious, but I honestly still do not care about what the founding fathers' opinion would have been on any modern issue, and I cannot fathom why anybody else does.

this. Opining for the founding fathers on stuff like this is the most Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) thing anyone can do.
This still bottles my mind.  Do you guys not see the basic principle of the government forcing two private people into a contract as an issue?
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Offline HeinBallz

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Those damn liberal activist framers of the Constitution
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2012, 11:44:43 AM »

This still bottles my mind.  Do you guys not see the basic principle of the government forcing two private people into a contract as an issue?

Does it really bottle your mind? Could you sell it afterwards?   Bottled minds...  I think you may have something there.



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Offline john "teach me how to" dougie

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Re: Those damn liberal activist framers of the Constitution
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2012, 12:21:57 PM »
I think it's important to note that the founding fathers disagreed on a LOT.  You have to remember they were just escaping large government and a lot of their principles by some of the framers of the constitution were not that far removed from the British rule.   I think of it like Ron Paul people combining forces with Santorum people - because they're both fighting to keep a conservative viewpoint alive.   Ron Pauls people wanting to be fiscally conservative and Santorums people wanting to be socially conservative.  Two groups of people that I would consider polar opposite - yet drawn together through a common enemy. 

Regardless, I found the article amusing and would rather justify Obamacare as a gigantic pile of crap for hundreds of other reasons than it being "unconstitutional". 

People screaming that it's unconstitutional are just ignorant and trying to find some argument for their side of the debate.  This article seems to mirror the stupidity by justifying an ignorant statement with an ignorant response.

The editorial is pretty hilarious in that he is claiming that regulations over a small group of employers, in a dangerous business, or, that drafting the populous to defend the country because there was no real military, could some how equate to forcing 250 million to buy health insurance. Obama must have aced his class at Harvard.
you are right about the first part.  Nearly totally wrong about the second. 


You're right, he probably got a C-

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Re: Those damn liberal activist framers of the Constitution
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2012, 08:50:21 PM »
 :lol:

Exactly how I read it.
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Offline ednksu

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Re: Those damn liberal activist framers of the Constitution
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2012, 09:08:59 PM »
I think it's important to note that the founding fathers disagreed on a LOT.  You have to remember they were just escaping large government and a lot of their principles by some of the framers of the constitution were not that far removed from the British rule.   I think of it like Ron Paul people combining forces with Santorum people - because they're both fighting to keep a conservative viewpoint alive.   Ron Pauls people wanting to be fiscally conservative and Santorums people wanting to be socially conservative.  Two groups of people that I would consider polar opposite - yet drawn together through a common enemy. 

Regardless, I found the article amusing and would rather justify Obamacare as a gigantic pile of crap for hundreds of other reasons than it being "unconstitutional". 

People screaming that it's unconstitutional are just ignorant and trying to find some argument for their side of the debate.  This article seems to mirror the stupidity by justifying an ignorant statement with an ignorant response.

The editorial is pretty hilarious in that he is claiming that regulations over a small group of employers, in a dangerous business, or, that drafting the populous to defend the country because there was no real military, could some how equate to forcing 250 million to buy health insurance. Obama must have aced his class at Harvard.
you are right about the first part.  Nearly totally wrong about the second. 


You're right, he probably got a C-
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Offline john "teach me how to" dougie

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Re: Those damn liberal activist framers of the Constitution
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2012, 12:15:32 AM »
I think it's important to note that the founding fathers disagreed on a LOT.  You have to remember they were just escaping large government and a lot of their principles by some of the framers of the constitution were not that far removed from the British rule.   I think of it like Ron Paul people combining forces with Santorum people - because they're both fighting to keep a conservative viewpoint alive.   Ron Pauls people wanting to be fiscally conservative and Santorums people wanting to be socially conservative.  Two groups of people that I would consider polar opposite - yet drawn together through a common enemy. 

Regardless, I found the article amusing and would rather justify Obamacare as a gigantic pile of crap for hundreds of other reasons than it being "unconstitutional". 

People screaming that it's unconstitutional are just ignorant and trying to find some argument for their side of the debate.  This article seems to mirror the stupidity by justifying an ignorant statement with an ignorant response.

The editorial is pretty hilarious in that he is claiming that regulations over a small group of employers, in a dangerous business, or, that drafting the populous to defend the country because there was no real military, could some how equate to forcing 250 million to buy health insurance. Obama must have aced his class at Harvard.
you are right about the first part.  Nearly totally wrong about the second. 


You're right, he probably got a C-


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