They think we'll be good

[catzacker]

I’ve beat this drum a lot, but hopefully it will sink in:  oscar Weber’s recruiting only got better over the last 3 years because of one man:  Jerrance Howard.  Otherwise, recruiting under his tenure has been underwhelming considering the available, local talent.

oscar took over a program that had, for the 11 years prior to his arrival had made it to the post season 10 times and in the previous 6 six years had been to the S16 and E8.  And by year 5 of Weber, Illinois didn’t make the post season and then subsequently made it to the ncaa twice in the 4 years after that. 

To say that expecting this to happen at KSU isn’t being “objective” is absurd.  If anything, it’s entirely objective.  And the roster he has with KSU now is nothing compared to the roster he stepped into at Illinois. 

This team should be an NCAA tourney team that makes it to the s16.  They should finish in the top 3 of the conference. They should.  That’s not setting unreasonable expectations.  Winning next year is moot.  It would have been expected even if House Burner was still our coach.

[Pete]

This.

[Belvis Noland]

I’ve beat this drum a lot, but hopefully it will sink in:  oscar Weber’s recruiting only got better over the last 3 years because of one man:  Jerrance Howard.  Otherwise, recruiting under his tenure has been underwhelming considering the available, local talent.

Where was K-State recruiting headed without Frank's Jerrance Howard (i.e. Dalonte Hill)?

Moral of the story, any successful coach needs successful recruiters.  Huggins had one.  Frank had one.  Weber had one.  Weber gets to claim credit for Howard's recruits just like Frank/Huggins got to claim credit for Dalonte's recruits.  Just like Self gets to claim credit for Dooley's recruits.  And so on and so forth.     

[michigancat]

If you land a crap load of highly rated players and can't make the tournament with them, you did a poor job recruiting.

[wetwillie]

I’ve beat this drum a lot, but hopefully it will sink in:  oscar Weber’s recruiting only got better over the last 3 years because of one man:  Jerrance Howard.  Otherwise, recruiting under his tenure has been underwhelming considering the available, local talent.

Where was K-State recruiting headed without Frank's Jerrance Howard (i.e. Dalonte Hill)?

I’ve beat this drum a lot, but hopefully it will sink in:  oscar Weber’s recruiting only got better over the last 3 years because of one man:  Jerrance Howard.  Otherwise, recruiting under his tenure has been underwhelming considering the available, local talent.

Where was K-State recruiting headed without Frank's Jerrance Howard (i.e. Dalonte Hill)?

Moral of the story, any successful coach needs successful recruiters.  Huggins had one.  Frank had one.  Weber had one.  Weber gets to claim credit for Howard's recruits just like Frank/Huggins got to claim credit for Dalonte's recruits.  Just like Self gets to claim credit for Dooley's recruits.  And so on and so forth.     

Moral of the story, any successful coach needs successful recruiters.  Huggins had one.  Frank had one.  Weber had one.  Weber gets to claim credit for Howard's recruits just like Frank/Huggins got to claim credit for Dalonte's recruits.  Just like Self gets to claim credit for Dooley's recruits.  And so on and so forth.     

I don't even

[Dr Rick Daris]

i was just confused when your response had something to do with him inheriting 3* players and then judging him moving forward based on whether or not he would be able to continue it, when the fact of the matter is that weber had 4* players at illinois and was still 11 games under .500 in conference play during his last six years there. it just seemed like a weird thing to post in the first place and then even weirder to quote me and then post it since it had absolutely nothing to do with the post that you were quoting.

What's your point, ultimately?  Bad coach or a bad recruiter?  I guess I thought your point was bad recruiter.  i.e., he'll win with Frank's players like he did with Self's players, but he'll suck with his own players just like he did at Illini.  That's why I raise the argument about Frank's 3* players.  If he can recruit average talent, we're pretty much in the same spot as with Martin.  That's my point. 

Weber isn't a bad coach.  He's not an elite coach either.  Just like Frank.

But, to say he will take our program back to the Asbury/Woolridge era is one of the more Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!) goEMAW talking points.

The Negative:  Weber had 2 shitty seasons at Illinois.  no question.  rough ridin' terrible.  He was 5-13 (9th) (10 scholarship players/5 freshmen), 6-12 (9th) (6 freshmen). 

The Positive:  Taken 2 different schools to NCAA, 3 sweet 16s, 1 national title appearance.  Won 4 Conference Championships (2 @S.Ill., 2 @ Ill.).  He's got a .670 career winning record.   

btw, his 2011 recruiting class had 6 top 100 guys.  one could make the argument that the 2012 season was bad because these guys were freshmen.

my point is that recruiting 3* and 4* talent has very little to do with winning when you have a poor system, are a poor motivator and are very bad at roster management.

give frank 3* and 4* players that he alone recruited, put together and coached during the 5 year period he was here and he went 50-32 in conference. give oscar weber 3* and 4* players that he alone recruited, put together and coached during the same period of time when he was at illinois and he went 41-49 in conference.

my point is that i want to WIN. i want WINNING basketball. W.I.N. i don't care if we only beat ft hays state by four points in november, i want to win. i don't care if our bbpf is worth 20 million or 13.5, i want to win.

frank proved that he could do it at ksu and weber proved that he could not at illinois.

[Belvis Noland]

If you land a crap load of highly rated players and can't make the tournament with them, you did a poor job recruiting.

Or, they were inexperienced freshmen.  If we had a team full of Angel's we wouldn't have been in the tourney. 

[Rage Against the McKee]

If you land a crap load of highly rated players and can't make the tournament with them, you did a poor job recruiting.

Or, they were inexperienced freshmen.  If we had a team full of Angel's we wouldn't have been in the tourney.

Maybe he should have recruited a balanced team, then.

[Belvis Noland]

my point is that i want to WIN. i want WINNING basketball. W.I.N. i don't care if we only beat ft hays state by four points in november, i want to win. i don't care if our bbpf is worth 20 million or 13.5, i want to win.

frank proved that he could do it at ksu and weber proved that he could not at illinois.

Weber at Illinois = 210-101 .675%
Frank at KSU = 117-54 .684%

[Dr Rick Daris]

my point is that i want to WIN. i want WINNING basketball. W.I.N. i don't care if we only beat ft hays state by four points in november, i want to win. i don't care if our bbpf is worth 20 million or 13.5, i want to win.

frank proved that he could do it at ksu and weber proved that he could not at illinois.

Weber at Illinois = 210-101 .675%
Frank at KSU = 117-54 .684%

 

[SleepFighter]

From a Basketball Prospectus link that _FAN shared earlier:



 

[kso_FAN]

From a Basketball Prospectus link that _FAN shared earlier:



 

Yep, his offensive efficiency is a concern.

To be fair, Frank's offense was often at or below average too. Only the Beasley year was our offense in league play in the Top 4 in the league.

[naturalselection]

btw, his 2011 recruiting class had 6 top 100 guys.  one could make the argument that the 2012 season was bad because these guys were freshmen.

You probably meant to type 4.  He had 4 (out of 6 total) top 100 players in his 11 class.  Still very good to be sure.  Those 4 guys were from Chicago.  If oscar Weber is able to recruit Illinois the way he recruited Illinois at Illinois you will NEVER hear me complain about his recruiting. 

Or, they were inexperienced freshmen.  If we had a team full of Angel's we wouldn't have been in the tourney.

KSU 2007-2008?

[Belvis Noland]

Maybe he should have recruited a balanced team, then.

I will concede the idea about poor recruiting management.  Clearly, it's a flawed strategy to roll in 5-6 FR every 3-4 years.  The resulting 2 seasons of mediocrity speak for themselves.  07-08 and 11-12 were abysmal. 

But, that 06-07 recruiting class (balanced 2(G), 2(F), 1(C))went on to 2 NCAAs and 1 NIT and 2nd, 4th, 5th place finishes in the Big10.  Very Frankesque performance. 

The 2010-2011 was a top-25 recruiting class.  and balanced.  1(PG) 2(SF), 1(PF), 2(C).  We'll see how they do in the next 3-4 years.  They'll probably be pretty successful. 

Look, I'm not saying BW is Coach K.  I'd clearly rather have Frank.  But, you guys are melting down about how this guy is Jim Wooldridge or Tom Asbury and will return this program to the dark ages. 

I just think his track record is a bit better than that.  He's been a good coach.  good recruiter.  poor recruiting management.  Wooldrige and Asbury were terrible in all facets.     
   

[catzacker]

I don't think he's Wooly or Asbury.  I think he's Altman (in two years).

[kso_FAN]

I don't think he's Wooly or Asbury.  I think he's Altman (in two years).

I'll admit, I threw him in with Wooly and Asbury and it wasn't fair. I think it's likely he'll be better than all 3.

[Belvis Noland]

 

It is funny, right?   

I figured Martin's winning percentage would have been much greater than Weber's.  Alas, Martin and Weber are really about the same in terms of being a College Basketball Coach.   

[Dr Rick Daris]

Weber at Illinois = 210-101 .675%
Frank at KSU = 117-54 .684%

 

It is funny, right?   

I figured Martin's winning percentage would have been much greater than Weber's.  Alas, Martin and Weber are really about the same in terms of being a College Basketball Coach.   
[/quote]

i was laughing because my post had to do with how they compared with teams that they were pretty much solely reposible for recruiting, putting together and the subsequently coaching. franks five years and webers last five and specifically in conference. then you deleted that part of my post, completely ignored it and instead posted their total overall winning percentage which is largely skewed by the nba roster that bill self handed over to weber. it was pretty lol.

[Belvis Noland]

I don't think he's Wooly or Asbury.  I think he's Altman (in two years).

Altman
68-54 (.557) overall
19-37 (.339) conference

Weber
210–101 (.675) overall
89–65 (.578) conference

Weber may fail.  It's certainly possible.  Frank may fail at South Carolina without the DC Assault pipeline.  It's possible.  That's college athletics. 

But, if you look at his track record, the odds are that Weber will take this program to the NCAA tournament most years, the NIT some years, and it's possible we may miss the post-season altogether. 

Time will tell.  Again, the dude has some flaws.  Just like Frank had flaws.  I'm just willing to give him a chance.  I guess others are not.     


 

[catzacker]

their starting points were entirely different.  their locations were entirely different. 

[kso_FAN]

I don't think he's Wooly or Asbury.  I think he's Altman (in two years).

Altman
68-54 (.557) overall
19-37 (.339) conference

Weber
210–101 (.675) overall
89–65 (.578) conference

Weber may fail.  It's certainly possible.  Frank may fail at South Carolina without the DC Assault pipeline.  It's possible.  That's college athletics. 

But, if you look at his track record, the odds are that Weber will take this program to the NCAA tournament most years, the NIT some years, and it's possible we may miss the post-season altogether. 

Time will tell.  Again, the dude has some flaws.  Just like Frank had flaws.  I'm just willing to give him a chance.  I guess others are not.   

I've come around, I'm willing as well. I agree with all you said there as well. Weber was much better at winning road games than those guys, even the last 6 years, though not as good as Frank.

[michigancat]

If you land a crap load of highly rated players and can't make the tournament with them, you did a poor job recruiting.

Or, they were inexperienced freshmen.  If we had a team full of Angel's we wouldn't have been in the tourney. 

Illinois was was #244 in experience on kenpom, Kansas State was #238.

[michigancat]

Time will tell.  Again, the dude has some flaws.  Just like Frank had flaws.  I'm just willing to give him a chance.   

Why do people keep repeating this? Illinois gave him his chance and failed. He got fired! That was his chance!

[ChiComCat]

If you land a crap load of highly rated players and can't make the tournament with them, you did a poor job recruiting.

Or, they were inexperienced freshmen.  If we had a team full of Angel's we wouldn't have been in the tourney. 

Illinois was was #244 in experience on kenpom, Kansas State was #238.

Well if you're going to keep poking holes in his excuses, you really aren't giving him much of a chance to do what he does.

[AzCat]

If you land a crap load of highly rated players and can't make the tournament with them, you did a poor job recruiting.

Or a poor job coaching.  Or both.