George Zimmerman is a piece of crap

[EllRobersonisInnocent]

#dadkilledit

[Cire]

was just coming here to post about O'mara  

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

Zim's attorney is killing it.

Poor choice of words?

It was a pretty darned good closing, but he has the stronger case. I thought the cutouts to compare the size difference b/w the two was particularly effective. I do wish he had given TM's mom a heads up before whipping out the autopsy photo.

You know what was really weird though, not a single mention of SYG. (That one's for you, SD. )

[sonofdaxjones]

So what was up with the Judge and the line of questioning yesterday?  Zimmermans atty's were all 

[MakeItRain]

It's kind of messed up that the legal system doesn't require the jury to know "beyond reasonable doubt" that TM attacked GZ. The defense just has to show that it could have happened.

I mean, I get it, but it's messed up.

Agreed. I understand and support the trade off we made, but I don't always enjoy seeing the results. Dude killed a kid. Whether its stand your ground, concealed carry, whatever, there's a glitch in the system. For me, it's mostly about a kid getting killed and less about GZ walking, though.

yeah

Do you two think deadly force in self defense should always require jail time?  Maybe I'm misreading, but it seems like you're saying a killed b, and no matter the circumstances a deserves jail for killing someone.

This is quite possibly the most opposite of what I was saying. I don't really care about the verdict part. In fact, I'd probably lean toward no/minimal prison time for the same reasons as sys. My point is that the system has a problem when this is a potential result of an over eager neighborhood patrol. Whether that problem is judicial or social or whatever, I don't really know. But Martin died because GZ unnecessarily picked a fight and unnecessarily had a gun.

I'm struggling to find a way to figure out how this

I'd probably lean toward no/minimal prison time

and this

But Martin died because GZ unnecessarily picked a fight and unnecessarily had a gun.

can sensibly coexist in the same coherent thought. Someone please help me out here.

[8manpick]

Because of the way the laws are structured? Discord between what it's right and what is legal or punishable in our justice system?

[Cire]

Prosecutor "He lied"

pretty weak.

[Trim]

He's doing alright.  I might have missed it, but I thought the jury instructions were absolutely settled on by now.  I'd be making my argument with the actual instructions as the framework, not what the sides want them to be.  Both sides seem to be doing the latter.

[felix rex]

I'm struggling to find a way to figure out how this

I'd probably lean toward no/minimal prison time

and this

But Martin died because GZ unnecessarily picked a fight and unnecessarily had a gun.

can sensibly coexist in the same coherent thought. Someone please help me out here.

unnecessarily doesn't mean illegally

[michigancat]

I'm struggling to find a way to figure out how this

I'd probably lean toward no/minimal prison time

and this

But Martin died because GZ unnecessarily picked a fight and unnecessarily had a gun.

can sensibly coexist in the same coherent thought. Someone please help me out here.

unnecessarily doesn't mean illegally

Yeah, I think at some point in this thread that what Zimmerman was most guilty of was being a hot-headed jackass with a gun, but you can't really send someone to prison for that.

[Dr Rick Daris]

I'm struggling to find a way to figure out how this

I'd probably lean toward no/minimal prison time

and this

But Martin died because GZ unnecessarily picked a fight and unnecessarily had a gun.

can sensibly coexist in the same coherent thought. Someone please help me out here.

unnecessarily doesn't mean illegally

Yeah, I think at some point in this thread that what Zimmerman was most guilty of was being a hot-headed jackass with a gun, but you can't really send someone to prison for that.

i personally would if given the chance.

[john "teach me how to" dougie]

I'm struggling to find a way to figure out how this

I'd probably lean toward no/minimal prison time

and this

But Martin died because GZ unnecessarily picked a fight and unnecessarily had a gun.

can sensibly coexist in the same coherent thought. Someone please help me out here.

unnecessarily doesn't mean illegally

Yeah, I think at some point in this thread that what Zimmerman was most guilty of was being a hot-headed jackass with a gun, but you can't really send someone to prison for that.

i personally would if given the chance.

You sound like a hot-head.

[OregonSmock]

Is there reasonable doubt that Travyon Martin is dead?   No.

Is there reasonable doubt that George Zimmerman killed Trayvon Martin?  No.

Is there reasonable doubt that the killing was justified and/or committed in self defense?  Yes. 

Conclusion:  no 2nd degree murder conviction

However, I could see a manslaughter conviction, since the evidence shows that Zimmerman did seem to display a disregard for human life, and acted in an irresponsible manner.

[Spracne]

Is there reasonable doubt that Travyon Martin is dead?   No.

Is there reasonable doubt that George Zimmerman killed Trayvon Martin?  No.

Is there reasonable doubt that the killing was justified and/or committed in self defense?  Yes. 

Conclusion:  no 2nd degree murder conviction

However, I could see a manslaughter conviction, since the evidence shows that Zimmerman did seem to display a disregard for human life, and acted in an irresponsible manner.

self defense burden of proof, tho

[Kat Kid]

Is there reasonable doubt that Travyon Martin is dead?   No.

Is there reasonable doubt that George Zimmerman killed Trayvon Martin?  No.

Is there reasonable doubt that the killing was justified and/or committed in self defense?  Yes. 

Conclusion:  no 2nd degree murder conviction

However, I could see a manslaughter conviction, since the evidence shows that Zimmerman did seem to display a disregard for human life, and acted in an irresponsible manner.

self defense burden of proof, tho

He's a ku grad.  Product of his environment.  Can't blame him for being a dumbass.

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

Is there reasonable doubt that the killing was justified and/or committed in self defense?  Yes. 

Conclusion:  no 2nd degree murder conviction

However, I could see a manslaughter conviction, since the evidence shows that Zimmerman did seem to display a disregard for human life, and acted in an irresponsible manner.

Self defense applies to the manslaughter charge exactly the same as the murder charge. If the jury finds the state failed to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that GZ was not acting in self defense, he must be acquitted on both counts (assuming the jury follows the law).

[Spracne]

Is there reasonable doubt that the killing was justified and/or committed in self defense?  Yes. 

Conclusion:  no 2nd degree murder conviction

However, I could see a manslaughter conviction, since the evidence shows that Zimmerman did seem to display a disregard for human life, and acted in an irresponsible manner.

Self defense applies to the manslaughter charge exactly the same as the murder charge. If the jury finds the state failed to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that GZ was not acting in self defense, he must be acquitted on both counts (assuming the jury follows the law).

female jury, tho

[K-S-U-Wildcats!]

Is there reasonable doubt that the killing was justified and/or committed in self defense?  Yes. 

Conclusion:  no 2nd degree murder conviction

However, I could see a manslaughter conviction, since the evidence shows that Zimmerman did seem to display a disregard for human life, and acted in an irresponsible manner.

Self defense applies to the manslaughter charge exactly the same as the murder charge. If the jury finds the state failed to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that GZ was not acting in self defense, he must be acquitted on both counts (assuming the jury follows the law).

female jury, tho

http://www.mediaite.com/online/ap-reporter-zimmerman-juror-appeared-to-be-wiping-away-a-tear-during-prosecution%E2%80%99s-rebuttal/

 

[Trim]

Is there reasonable doubt that the killing was justified and/or committed in self defense?  Yes. 

Conclusion:  no 2nd degree murder conviction

However, I could see a manslaughter conviction, since the evidence shows that Zimmerman did seem to display a disregard for human life, and acted in an irresponsible manner.

Self defense applies to the manslaughter charge exactly the same as the murder charge. If the jury finds the state failed to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that GZ was not acting in self defense, he must be acquitted on both counts (assuming the jury follows the law).

female jury, tho

http://www.mediaite.com/online/ap-reporter-zimmerman-juror-appeared-to-be-wiping-away-a-tear-during-prosecution%E2%80%99s-rebuttal/

 

One Associated Press reporter tweeted that he saw one juror “whipping away a tear” during the prosecution’s argument.

[Spracne]

Is there reasonable doubt that the killing was justified and/or committed in self defense?  Yes. 

Conclusion:  no 2nd degree murder conviction

However, I could see a manslaughter conviction, since the evidence shows that Zimmerman did seem to display a disregard for human life, and acted in an irresponsible manner.

Self defense applies to the manslaughter charge exactly the same as the murder charge. If the jury finds the state failed to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that GZ was not acting in self defense, he must be acquitted on both counts (assuming the jury follows the law).

female jury, tho

http://www.mediaite.com/online/ap-reporter-zimmerman-juror-appeared-to-be-wiping-away-a-tear-during-prosecution%E2%80%99s-rebuttal/

 

"Listen to your heart"   

[EMAWmeister]

Is there reasonable doubt that the killing was justified and/or committed in self defense?  Yes. 

Conclusion:  no 2nd degree murder conviction

However, I could see a manslaughter conviction, since the evidence shows that Zimmerman did seem to display a disregard for human life, and acted in an irresponsible manner.

Self defense applies to the manslaughter charge exactly the same as the murder charge. If the jury finds the state failed to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that GZ was not acting in self defense, he must be acquitted on both counts (assuming the jury follows the law).

female jury, tho

http://www.mediaite.com/online/ap-reporter-zimmerman-juror-appeared-to-be-wiping-away-a-tear-during-prosecution%E2%80%99s-rebuttal/

 

One Associated Press reporter tweeted that he saw one juror “whipping away a tear” during the prosecution’s argument.

The AP just won't stop playing the race card. 

[OregonSmock]

Lots of wannabe lawyers in this thread. 

[Spracne]

Lots of wannabe lawyers in this thread.

If I were you, I'd put a gag on unless you'd like an attenuation of the taint.

[EllRobersonisInnocent]

BREAKING NEWS:

The Associated Press ?@AP  56s 
BREAKING: Jury in Zimmerman murder trial has a question for judge; they want an index of all evidence. -MM

[michigancat]

Pic of a dead Trayvon on Gawker. Won't post it here

Here it is, I think everyone who has posted in this thread should look at it:

http://gawker.com/this-courtesy-of-msnbc-is-trayvon-martins-dead-body-753370712