0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Quote from: uskndeQuote from: Adam GQuote from: dick_danderAdam for the record I am not a cop/deputy/canadian mounty fellow, i am the guy you call 911 and actually like to see, but i still deal with ignorant arseholes, i agree with the "99% agaisnt the 1% protest, but these people are looking for trouble, when explained by the police, when they are sitting down that they are facing forcable actions, "do you understand?" they agree, and get pepper sprayed then cry about it? nope. and LOL going hands on with a group that is surrounding you. good luck, that "non-threatneing group" may get very threatning in a few seconds. I'm not insensitive to the fact that cops have dangerous jobs. I'm just not willing to give them carte blanche to deal with any given situation based on what their imagination tells them might happen. The facts are what they are and people, cops or not, are only allowed to respond with the minimum amount of force necessary to repel any given attack. That rule goes back several centuries, we took it with us from England. Here is where you are wrong and where most people are wrong in this thread. The police are not charged to end a situation with the absolute minimum force necessary to repel an attack. The police are there to end the situation with the minimum force to prevent jeopardy to their safety and the safety of the perpetrator. To say otherwise ignores logic, legal history, and the law. Take moof's situation for example. If the 16 year old pulls a knife instead of a fist should moof attempt an arrest with his hands, his baton, his gun? Penn St: Student are peaceful at first and than a small group decide to tip over a TV van. Should the police attempt to pic out in a crowd of thousands which ones touched the van or pepper spray the area around the van?The inherent problem here is a complete lack of understanding of what is freedom of speech and assembly. Using permits and regulations to stifle those freedoms if repugnant. The problem is that many times people are using OWS to do as they please. The groups ARE NOT SELF POLICING their message. The most offensive abuse of history and the comparison to the real Civil Rights movement is rooted here. Martin Luther King would not have allowed the kind of nonsense at his movements at what occurs at OWS. Even met with legitimate violent oppression they did less to resist than what the OWS crowd does. At a place like UCD there is little doubt that legal assembly could have been accomplished if they chose to be self policing in their actions. Permits could have been issued, protests in established free speech zones allowed and everyone gets to go home happily. Lets examine the video.The police used many verbal warnings which were specific, cited the laws the crowd were in violation of (a common talking point for resistance). From 4 minutes or so to 6 minutes we find now that the crowd moves aggressively towards the cops. They have now changed. MLK would have never allowed his citizens to move aggressively. That is not to say they would have not moved towards cops. The difference is that when you approach a cop in your path it can still be non violent. When you alter your path as a group to confront a cop while demanding a course of action you are no longer a peaceful protest. You are attempting to use force and physical intimidation to demand the release of legally arrested squatters. The mob was interlocked in their arms chanting a slogan of illegal actions. Finally the violence escalates to surrounding the cops around legally arrested people. The situation was escalated ENTIRELY by OWS NOT BY THE POLICE. "If you let them go, we will let you leave". These are not the actions of peaceful crowd. I agree that the people on the sidewalk are there keeping the police their against their will. They have cut off and surrounded the police from their duty. The mod continues their violent actions. Anytime you use physical force to get your message across you are not a peaceful protest. I'm sure many OWS think they are being cute with their eff the police chants and arm locking, but they have changed the game by surrounding the cops. To say that they use their voice they use their weapons is laughable at best. They have now used physical force to interfere with the legitimate police powers. You cannot claim the mantel of protest by attempting to impose consequences through physical force. The mob attempts to negotiate a 'peaceful' solution at their grip of control weakens over the police when the police begin to resist their violent actions. Here is the inherent problem. The people were pepper sprayed, not for typical OWS talking points, but because they chose to use violent actions against the police. When ever you use physical force to attempt the effect of your goals it is violent. The general populace, and certainly not a "peaceful" protest do not have an inherent right to violence. Any level of physical force, whether it be beatings with batons or physically blocking a pathway to safety is violent. I'm very surprised at how many people here still choose to be offended by police actions. I'm honestly disappointed in Scotter for his comments. If this was a situation where people were protesting a legitimate issue than they should not be harmed. But when you attack the police and attempt to impose your physical will on another person you are no longer being peaceful. To compare these clones to the real civil rights workers is laughable at best and honestly dishonors the sacrifice many civil rights workers made/make. UCD has no systematic inequalities that can even come close to parallel what happened to people in the South. No OWS protesters were be lynched by police later that night. No OWS protesters are going to have to face fire hoses or police dogs attacking them because they attempted to vote or speak peacefully. No OWS has been denied freedom of movement like these police were.
Quote from: Adam GQuote from: dick_danderAdam for the record I am not a cop/deputy/canadian mounty fellow, i am the guy you call 911 and actually like to see, but i still deal with ignorant arseholes, i agree with the "99% agaisnt the 1% protest, but these people are looking for trouble, when explained by the police, when they are sitting down that they are facing forcable actions, "do you understand?" they agree, and get pepper sprayed then cry about it? nope. and LOL going hands on with a group that is surrounding you. good luck, that "non-threatneing group" may get very threatning in a few seconds. I'm not insensitive to the fact that cops have dangerous jobs. I'm just not willing to give them carte blanche to deal with any given situation based on what their imagination tells them might happen. The facts are what they are and people, cops or not, are only allowed to respond with the minimum amount of force necessary to repel any given attack. That rule goes back several centuries, we took it with us from England. Here is where you are wrong and where most people are wrong in this thread. The police are not charged to end a situation with the absolute minimum force necessary to repel an attack. The police are there to end the situation with the minimum force to prevent jeopardy to their safety and the safety of the perpetrator. To say otherwise ignores logic, legal history, and the law. Take moof's situation for example. If the 16 year old pulls a knife instead of a fist should moof attempt an arrest with his hands, his baton, his gun? Penn St: Student are peaceful at first and than a small group decide to tip over a TV van. Should the police attempt to pic out in a crowd of thousands which ones touched the van or pepper spray the area around the van?The inherent problem here is a complete lack of understanding of what is freedom of speech and assembly. Using permits and regulations to stifle those freedoms if repugnant. The problem is that many times people are using OWS to do as they please. The groups ARE NOT SELF POLICING their message. The most offensive abuse of history and the comparison to the real Civil Rights movement is rooted here. Martin Luther King would not have allowed the kind of nonsense at his movements at what occurs at OWS. Even met with legitimate violent oppression they did less to resist than what the OWS crowd does. At a place like UCD there is little doubt that legal assembly could have been accomplished if they chose to be self policing in their actions. Permits could have been issued, protests in established free speech zones allowed and everyone gets to go home happily. Lets examine the video.The police used many verbal warnings which were specific, cited the laws the crowd were in violation of (a common talking point for resistance). From 4 minutes or so to 6 minutes we find now that the crowd moves aggressively towards the cops. They have now changed. MLK would have never allowed his citizens to move aggressively. That is not to say they would have not moved towards cops. The difference is that when you approach a cop in your path it can still be non violent. When you alter your path as a group to confront a cop while demanding a course of action you are no longer a peaceful protest. You are attempting to use force and physical intimidation to demand the release of legally arrested squatters. The mob was interlocked in their arms chanting a slogan of illegal actions. Finally the violence escalates to surrounding the cops around legally arrested people. The situation was escalated ENTIRELY by OWS NOT BY THE POLICE. "If you let them go, we will let you leave". These are not the actions of peaceful crowd. I agree that the people on the sidewalk are there keeping the police their against their will. They have cut off and surrounded the police from their duty. The mod continues their violent actions. Anytime you use physical force to get your message across you are not a peaceful protest. I'm sure many OWS think they are being cute with their eff the police chants and arm locking, but they have changed the game by surrounding the cops. To say that they use their voice they use their weapons is laughable at best. They have now used physical force to interfere with the legitimate police powers. You cannot claim the mantel of protest by attempting to impose consequences through physical force. The mob attempts to negotiate a 'peaceful' solution at their grip of control weakens over the police when the police begin to resist their violent actions. Here is the inherent problem. The people were pepper sprayed, not for typical OWS talking points, but because they chose to use violent actions against the police. When ever you use physical force to attempt the effect of your goals it is violent. The general populace, and certainly not a "peaceful" protest do not have an inherent right to violence. Any level of physical force, whether it be beatings with batons or physically blocking a pathway to safety is violent. I'm very surprised at how many people here still choose to be offended by police actions. I'm honestly disappointed in Scotter for his comments. If this was a situation where people were protesting a legitimate issue than they should not be harmed. But when you attack the police and attempt to impose your physical will on another person you are no longer being peaceful. To compare these clones to the real civil rights workers is laughable at best and honestly dishonors the sacrifice many civil rights workers made/make. UCD has no systematic inequalities that can even come close to parallel what happened to people in the South. No OWS protesters were be lynched by police later that night. No OWS protesters are going to have to face fire hoses or police dogs attacking them because they attempted to vote or speak peacefully. No OWS has been denied freedom of movement like these police were.
Quote from: dick_danderAdam for the record I am not a cop/deputy/canadian mounty fellow, i am the guy you call 911 and actually like to see, but i still deal with ignorant arseholes, i agree with the "99% agaisnt the 1% protest, but these people are looking for trouble, when explained by the police, when they are sitting down that they are facing forcable actions, "do you understand?" they agree, and get pepper sprayed then cry about it? nope. and LOL going hands on with a group that is surrounding you. good luck, that "non-threatneing group" may get very threatning in a few seconds. I'm not insensitive to the fact that cops have dangerous jobs. I'm just not willing to give them carte blanche to deal with any given situation based on what their imagination tells them might happen. The facts are what they are and people, cops or not, are only allowed to respond with the minimum amount of force necessary to repel any given attack. That rule goes back several centuries, we took it with us from England.
Adam for the record I am not a cop/deputy/canadian mounty fellow, i am the guy you call 911 and actually like to see, but i still deal with ignorant arseholes, i agree with the "99% agaisnt the 1% protest, but these people are looking for trouble, when explained by the police, when they are sitting down that they are facing forcable actions, "do you understand?" they agree, and get pepper sprayed then cry about it? nope. and LOL going hands on with a group that is surrounding you. good luck, that "non-threatneing group" may get very threatning in a few seconds.
KU is right on par with Notre Dame ... when it comes to adding additional conference revenue
Beer pro tip: never drink anything other than BL, coors, pbr, maybe a few others that I'm forgetting
It was pretty obvious from the original news stories that what happened in that long-ass video is how it went down.And yeah, those were the dumbest riot cops on the planet.
Quote from: michigancat on December 29, 2011, 02:48:06 PMIt was pretty obvious from the original news stories that what happened in that long-ass video is how it went down.And yeah, those were the dumbest riot cops on the planet.I don't think its fair to call them dumb. What else would want them to do on that campus? All things considered for the amount of crap they go, it was pretty level.
long-ass video
Quote from: ednksu on December 29, 2011, 09:38:08 PMQuote from: michigancat on December 29, 2011, 02:48:06 PMIt was pretty obvious from the original news stories that what happened in that long-ass video is how it went down.And yeah, those were the dumbest riot cops on the planet.I don't think its fair to call them dumb. What else would want them to do on that campus? All things considered for the amount of crap they go, it was pretty level. I'm being very fair. Why were they just hanging out with the people arrested instead of taking them straight to jail? Because they're dumb, that's why.
Quote from: michigancat on December 29, 2011, 10:24:22 PMQuote from: ednksu on December 29, 2011, 09:38:08 PMQuote from: michigancat on December 29, 2011, 02:48:06 PMIt was pretty obvious from the original news stories that what happened in that long-ass video is how it went down.And yeah, those were the dumbest riot cops on the planet.I don't think its fair to call them dumb. What else would want them to do on that campus? All things considered for the amount of crap they go, it was pretty level. I'm being very fair. Why were they just hanging out with the people arrested instead of taking them straight to jail? Because they're dumb, that's why.from my understanding they were wrapping up arresting the overnight campers when they were surrounded by the larger group. Seems like they were trying to move slowly and deliberately to prevent a larger issue. The problem being that the larger issue was forced on them by the dirty hippies.
So you might end up with some fugitives wanted for illegal camping if you don't catch them when you return with backup. BFD.
