Author Topic: Holy War  (Read 139741 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline skycat

  • Katpak'r
  • ***
  • Posts: 1143
    • View Profile
Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #650 on: April 21, 2011, 04:27:42 PM »
Third: You made up every word of your post.

If you have even the tiniest bit of intellectual integrity, you will head over to Google right now and discover that every word of my post is true.

Offline CNS

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 36781
  • I'm Athletes
    • View Profile
Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #651 on: April 21, 2011, 04:28:09 PM »
Be 100% sure you shouldn't kill yourself, or everyone around you - have a reason, then let's continue this discussion.

Fair deal, all?


Cause it's not very nice  :ck:

You should be able to kill yourself if you want.  Did you know it is illegal to commit suicide in many states?

You shouldn't be able to kill others because doing so directly effects the others' ability to live their life.

I wonder what the punishment is.

Death

Offline the KHAN!

  • Katpak'r
  • ***
  • Posts: 1574
  • The Prince of Darkness and Sorrow
    • View Profile
Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #652 on: April 21, 2011, 05:11:11 PM »
Quote
why not?

Seriously?


Only for this reason. These rights are not inalienable if you just declare that you have them. I can declare you don't have them. Then who's right? Whoever is stronger...that's who.

In your opinion rights are just some words written on a piece of paper by some crusty old men....or in this case...they aren't even written down anywhere!
The Scheme Doctor
Up the Banana Wall

Offline Stevesie60

  • Fattyfest Champion
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 17181
    • View Profile
Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #653 on: April 21, 2011, 06:05:34 PM »
Third: You made up every word of your post.

If you have even the tiniest bit of intellectual integrity, you will head over to Google right now and discover that every word of my post is true.

In PoetWarrior's defense, the "oppression of women" part is absolutely made up. Jesus is known as one of the first feminists among people with entirely different backgrounds and beliefs. That's why the story of the Samaritan woman by the well is such a big deal. Everybody was confused why Jesus would be talking to a woman, especially a Samaritan woman.

Offline pike

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 5138
  • BIG GREEN EGG!!!!
    • View Profile
Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #654 on: April 21, 2011, 06:26:00 PM »
good god, PW. We went over this like 18 pages ago.

Just read this and laughed hard, because it's absolutely right  :lol:

Offline pike

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 5138
  • BIG GREEN EGG!!!!
    • View Profile
Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #655 on: April 21, 2011, 06:30:12 PM »
I'm not talking about living happy lives. I'm asking you to care about why and how you live and have a good reason for doing so. You all care about a lot of different things, why not this?

It's obvious that most of you have never thought about it, or at least refuse to when it comes up. Or at the very least believe it is a problem that cannot be solved.  Don't be that lazy or stupid. You're not an animal. You're a person. (Man, animals are so dumb. Cool to look at - dumb as rocks. I'm glad I'm not one.)

Be alone for awhile. Think about things. Don't read, don't talk - think. Think about everything you know. Turn off your cellphone for a couple minutes.


When I realized I was alone, I realized I wasn't alone.


Why do we need a good reason for why we live? I do believe that life on our planet was a huge fluke of things coming together. The universe is so unfathomably big that it had to happen somewhere, and likely has happened more than just here.


There's no reason to look for a reason. We're here just because...

Online michigancat

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 53903
  • change your stupid avatar.
    • View Profile
Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #656 on: April 21, 2011, 07:49:05 PM »
Quote
why not?

Seriously?


Only for this reason. These rights are not inalienable if you just declare that you have them. I can declare you don't have them. Then who's right? Whoever is stronger...that's who.

In your opinion rights are just some words written on a piece of paper by some crusty old men....or in this case...they aren't even written down anywhere!

Like I said, I don't really care what is a "right", or where it came from - I simply believe all people that are not harming others deserve a government that provides equal laws, privileges, or rights - (whatever you want to call them). In my opinion, it is your right to disagree, and yes, who has the freedom to enjoy certain rights is ultimately decided by crusty old men. I don't know why you're trying to turn equal treatment of gays into a semantics argument about where rights come from, but whatever. You haven't said much that makes sense here, anyway.

Offline skycat

  • Katpak'r
  • ***
  • Posts: 1143
    • View Profile
Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #657 on: April 21, 2011, 10:41:42 PM »
Third: You made up every word of your post.

If you have even the tiniest bit of intellectual integrity, you will head over to Google right now and discover that every word of my post is true.

In PoetWarrior's defense, the "oppression of women" part is absolutely made up. Jesus is known as one of the first feminists among people with entirely different backgrounds and beliefs. That's why the story of the Samaritan woman by the well is such a big deal. Everybody was confused why Jesus would be talking to a woman, especially a Samaritan woman.

Yes, but Christians are taught to read the whole Bible, not just what Jesus supposedly said.

The anti-women passages in the Bible would really take up too much room here, but here's a good start: http://www.religioustolerance.org/ofe_bibl.htm

These Christian leaders clearly know their Bible:

Quote from: St. Tertullian (about 155 to 225 CE)
Do you not know that you are each an Eve? The sentence of God on this sex of yours lives in this age: the guilt must of necessity live too. You are the Devil's gateway: You are the unsealer of the forbidden tree: You are the first deserter of the divine law: You are she who persuaded him whom the devil was not valiant enough to attack. You destroyed so easily God's image, man. On account of your desert even the Son of God had to die.

Quote from: St. Augustine of Hippo (354 to 430 CE)
What is the difference whether it is in a wife or a mother, it is still Eve the temptress that we must beware of in any woman......I fail to see what use woman can be to man, if one excludes the function of bearing children.

Quote from: St. Thomas Aquinas (1225 to 1274 CE)
As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active force in the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of woman comes from a defect in the active force or from some material indisposition, or even from some external influence.

Quote from: Martin Luther (1483 to 1546)
If they [women] become tired or even die, that does not matter. Let them die in childbirth, that's why they are there.

I don't make things up, BTW.

Offline Stevesie60

  • Fattyfest Champion
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 17181
    • View Profile
Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #658 on: April 21, 2011, 11:14:42 PM »
Third: You made up every word of your post.

If you have even the tiniest bit of intellectual integrity, you will head over to Google right now and discover that every word of my post is true.

In PoetWarrior's defense, the "oppression of women" part is absolutely made up. Jesus is known as one of the first feminists among people with entirely different backgrounds and beliefs. That's why the story of the Samaritan woman by the well is such a big deal. Everybody was confused why Jesus would be talking to a woman, especially a Samaritan woman.

Yes, but Christians are taught to read the whole Bible, not just what Jesus supposedly said.

The anti-women passages in the Bible would really take up too much room here, but here's a good start: http://www.religioustolerance.org/ofe_bibl.htm

These Christian leaders clearly know their Bible:

Quote from: St. Tertullian (about 155 to 225 CE)
Do you not know that you are each an Eve? The sentence of God on this sex of yours lives in this age: the guilt must of necessity live too. You are the Devil's gateway: You are the unsealer of the forbidden tree: You are the first deserter of the divine law: You are she who persuaded him whom the devil was not valiant enough to attack. You destroyed so easily God's image, man. On account of your desert even the Son of God had to die.

Quote from: St. Augustine of Hippo (354 to 430 CE)
What is the difference whether it is in a wife or a mother, it is still Eve the temptress that we must beware of in any woman......I fail to see what use woman can be to man, if one excludes the function of bearing children.

Quote from: St. Thomas Aquinas (1225 to 1274 CE)
As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active force in the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of woman comes from a defect in the active force or from some material indisposition, or even from some external influence.

Quote from: Martin Luther (1483 to 1546)
If they [women] become tired or even die, that does not matter. Let them die in childbirth, that's why they are there.

I don't make things up, BTW.

I trust Jesus more than Christan leaders. That argument might hold weight against Catholics, but I'm not one. I don't believe that what the saints say should be taken as truth.

And Jesus came to correct all the things that the people in the Old Testament didn't understand, such as oppression to women, anger, revenge, adultery, etc. So I think the oppression of women in the Old Testament is more of an example of how we are wrong, flawed, and don't understand what God is trying to tell us.

Offline skycat

  • Katpak'r
  • ***
  • Posts: 1143
    • View Profile
Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #659 on: April 22, 2011, 05:21:39 AM »
I trust Jesus more than Christan leaders. That argument might hold weight against Catholics, but I'm not one. I don't believe that what the saints say should be taken as truth.

And Jesus came to correct all the things that the people in the Old Testament didn't understand, such as oppression to women, anger, revenge, adultery, etc. So I think the oppression of women in the Old Testament is more of an example of how we are wrong, flawed, and don't understand what God is trying to tell us.


It's strange that teachings that are wrong and flawed comprise the first part of the Bible. Isn't the whole Bible supposedly the word of God?

I included the quotes to show that some of the most prominent leaders in Christianity, people who'd spent much of their lives thinking about the Scriptures, were anti-women. In fact, their attitudes were the norm, not the exception. For most of the history of Christianity, Christians don't seem to have gotten the memo that Christ's teachings replaced the old teachings, and even today many haven't figured it out. The Southern Baptist Convention in recent years said that wives should submit to their husbands. Christians abuse women at a higher rate than non-believers. And it seems like every time I come across one of the religious shows on TV or the Radio, they're preaching fire and brimstone, not tolerance and justice. If the Bible is such a great moral guide, why has it been so easy through the centuries to use it to justify the most horrible atrocities and suffering? How would it not have been better to just throw the damn thing out?

I agree that Jesus had some great teachings, but c'mon, look what they're surrounded by. Thomas Jefferson had the right idea. He took what he thought were the legitimate teachings of Jesus, and he threw the rest of it out. He said Jesus' teachings were "as easily distinguishable as diamonds in a dunghill." The result was the Jefferson Bible. That's a bible I could get behind. Only 46 pages, too.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2011, 05:29:35 AM by skycat »

Offline bakerman

  • Big Salt Spokesperson
  • Katpak'r
  • ***
  • Posts: 1698
    • View Profile
Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #660 on: April 22, 2011, 08:53:15 AM »
The old testament is/what the Law was for mankind and a historical account of the creation of God's people.

The new testament is the new guidelines God provided through Jesus.


And to take what men who relished having complete control over people by creating fear in them as what God wanted, is pretty ludicrous. They may have said it, but that doesn't make it so.

Offline PoetWarrior

  • Katpak'r
  • ***
  • Posts: 2353
    • View Profile
Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #661 on: April 22, 2011, 09:42:43 AM »
wives should submit to their husbands.

The Bible does say that and we are meant to follow it. This is not oppressive, however.


Christians abuse women at a higher rate than non-believers

You're doing it again, dude.

It's strange that teachings that are wrong and flawed comprise the first part of the Bible. Isn't the whole Bible supposedly the word of God?

You don't understand how this works. You should look into it, in honesty.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2011, 09:44:56 AM by PoetWarrior »

Offline KSU187

  • Fan
  • *
  • Posts: 93
    • View Profile
Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #662 on: April 22, 2011, 09:57:52 AM »
Quote
I included the quotes to show that some of the most prominent leaders in Christianity, people who'd spent much of their lives thinking about the Scriptures, were anti-women.

To be fair, at the time when the quotes were made, the entire world could be described into the broad generalization of being "anti-women."  An argument can be made that Eastern Civilization was just as, or more, "anti-women" than the newly developing Christian West.

Quote
The Southern Baptist Convention in recent years said that wives should submit to their husbands.

 :horrorsurprise: :runaway:

Yes, they are speaking about St. Paul's instructions in Ephesians for a Christian household from Ephesians Chapter 5:

 21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. (He is speaking of the spiritual principle of reciprocity in a relationship, not oppression.  He goes on to clearly describe it.)

 22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. (As you do to the Lord, implies that free will is still involved) 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church....

In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body.

31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”[c] 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband. (The last verse he he sums it up in the consensual, mutual, spiritual, reciprocal dedication to God and the marriage)

Earlier in the epistle he gives this instruction:

"Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace." Ephesians 4:1-3

Hardly the "just go beat the bitch" slant you are trying to portray it as.

Quote
If the Bible is such a great moral guide, why has it been so easy through the centuries to use it to justify the most horrible atrocities and suffering?

Human nature my friend, is why atrocities and suffering occur, not "justification" from the Bible.  The Bible has also been used to justify, motivate, and inspire a great amount of good in this world as well.

Finally,
Quote
Christians abuse women at a higher rate than non-believers.

Data? or just a platitude?

I have access to an assload of academic databases due to my work, I would be happy to email you the full text of these studies/articles.

D. B. Sugerman and S. L. Frankel, "Patriarchal Ideology and Wife-Assault: A Meta-Analytic Review," Journal of Family Violence 11 (1996)

"Conservative Protestant Ideology and Wife Abuse: Reflections on the Discrepancy between Theory and Data," Journal of Religion and Abuse 2 (2001)

“Patriarchy and Wife Assault: The Ecological Fallacy,’’ in Violence and Victims Vol. 9, No. 2 (1994)

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3817/is_200709/ai_n29491710/pg_4/


Offline Dirty Sanchez

  • Katpak'r
  • ***
  • Posts: 1749
    • View Profile
Re: Holy War
« Reply #663 on: April 22, 2011, 11:13:40 AM »
That sound you just heard was an aneurysm in stevsie's brain popping.

Offline CHONGS

  • Master of the Atom
  • Administrator
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 19441
    • View Profile
    • goEMAW.com
Re: Holy War
« Reply #664 on: April 22, 2011, 11:23:53 AM »
what's funny is that either side in this "debate" thinks that it's "winning" or putting forward compelling arguments :lol:

its the collision between philosophy 101 students and coffee shop Christians.

Offline KSU187

  • Fan
  • *
  • Posts: 93
    • View Profile
Re: Holy War
« Reply #665 on: April 22, 2011, 11:28:39 AM »
I still love you though Chingon

Offline CHONGS

  • Master of the Atom
  • Administrator
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 19441
    • View Profile
    • goEMAW.com
Re: Holy War
« Reply #666 on: April 22, 2011, 11:32:20 AM »
I still love you though Chingon
everyone does :gocho:

Offline Kat Kid

  • Global Moderator
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 20528
    • View Profile
Re: Holy War
« Reply #667 on: April 22, 2011, 11:37:04 AM »

Offline CHONGS

  • Master of the Atom
  • Administrator
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 19441
    • View Profile
    • goEMAW.com
Re: Holy War
« Reply #668 on: April 22, 2011, 11:39:29 AM »

Offline dohminator

  • Fan
  • *
  • Posts: 66
    • View Profile
Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #669 on: April 22, 2011, 01:25:20 PM »
Be 100% sure you shouldn't kill yourself, or everyone around you - have a reason, then let's continue this discussion.

Fair deal, all?


Because it would increase human suffering and misery and decrease well-being.

Of course, if they were all Christians I would be doing them a favor by sending them to heaven earlier and sparing from the suffering of being on this planet and seperated from God. 

Online michigancat

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 53903
  • change your stupid avatar.
    • View Profile
Re: Holy War
« Reply #670 on: April 22, 2011, 01:30:26 PM »
i consider myself to be a notch below a philosophy 101 student.

Offline Dirty Sanchez

  • Katpak'r
  • ***
  • Posts: 1749
    • View Profile
Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #671 on: April 22, 2011, 01:38:39 PM »
Be 100% sure you shouldn't kill yourself, or everyone around you - have a reason, then let's continue this discussion.

Fair deal, all?


Because it would increase human suffering and misery and decrease well-being.

Of course, if they were all Christians I would be doing them a favor by sending them to heaven earlier and sparing from the suffering of being on this planet and seperated from God. 

But if we're just machines responding to stimuli, then suffering and misery is an illusion.

Offline dohminator

  • Fan
  • *
  • Posts: 66
    • View Profile
Re: Religion,Bible,Church, Etc. Thread
« Reply #672 on: April 22, 2011, 03:20:39 PM »
Be 100% sure you shouldn't kill yourself, or everyone around you - have a reason, then let's continue this discussion.

Fair deal, all?


Because it would increase human suffering and misery and decrease well-being.

Of course, if they were all Christians I would be doing them a favor by sending them to heaven earlier and sparing from the suffering of being on this planet and seperated from God. 

But if we're just machines responding to stimuli, then suffering and misery is an illusion.

The experience of suffering an misery and of love and happiness do reside in our brain.  Our ability to have complex thoughts and to be aware of ourselves also reside in our brain.  Provable by all the effects that chemicals, brain damage, etc. have on our brains and our ability to think.  Mental illness (schizophrenia as a great example) is not a problem of the soul, it is a problem of the brain. 

If you want to think that that breaks down human experience to us just being simple machines then so be it, but the human brain is a wonderful machine and we experience the world in a unique way as a result. 

Offline skycat

  • Katpak'r
  • ***
  • Posts: 1143
    • View Profile
Re: Holy War
« Reply #673 on: April 22, 2011, 03:25:28 PM »
what's funny is that either side in this "debate" thinks that it's "winning" or putting forward compelling arguments :lol:

To win I think I'd have to change some minds, so no, I don't think I'm "winning" the "debate." And my arguments are pretty slapdash. There are loads of books and articles that put forward compelling, thorough arguments, which take a long time to research and formulate, time I don't have. Originally I intended to do only one or two posts to explain how my life has gotten better since I rejected religion.

Compelling arguments don't change many minds, anyway -- they only make people (especially conservative Republicans) cling harder to their deeply held but false beliefs. Someday I'd like to do some reading on how to best persuade these people, drawing from the latest psychology and neuroscience. It's too frustrating arguing with people who are impervious to logic and evidence.

Offline PoetWarrior

  • Katpak'r
  • ***
  • Posts: 2353
    • View Profile
Re: Holy War
« Reply #674 on: April 22, 2011, 03:26:18 PM »
I don't drink coffee.