Sitting the rest of the half w/ 2 fouls

[kougar24]

what if the 3 point basket made in the first possession set the tempo for the rest of the game and led the other team to make mistakes in an effort to catch up with the scoring team.  and then when down by 20 because of all of their mistakes from earlier in the game, they score a 3 pt swish with one minute to go in the game, which basket was more valuable?  because i think we all know the answer here. 

It all depends on whether or not the second three involved a good play drawn up by the coach.

I think it's more dependent on said coach's mannerisms on the sideline and the signals he barked out leading up to the bucket.

[ChiComCat]

I don't think that its the end of game that would be effected defensively.  If someone has 2 fouls at 12 min in the first, they might be a little softer for fear of the foul call.  In the last 2 minutes the value of the stop becomes more critical in a close game and I don't see players worried about fouls as much.  Would love to have defensive efficency numbers when there is foul trouble to see if they show that.

If a player can magically make themselves stop playing softer with 2 minutes left, why couldn't they magically make themselves stop playing softer with 12 minutes left in the first? Just tell the player that if they can't play their normal, tough defense with foul trouble, they won't play at all, even at the end of a game. It's all about maximizing your best players' minutes.

There is no magic, its just inherent risk/reward.  To take it to extremes, if you play with 4 fouls with 30 minutes left in the game, the risk of challenging a shot vs. you sitting out for 30 minutes is different from when you risk sitting out the last 30 seconds of the game to challenge a shot.

[michigancat]

I don't think that its the end of game that would be effected defensively.  If someone has 2 fouls at 12 min in the first, they might be a little softer for fear of the foul call.  In the last 2 minutes the value of the stop becomes more critical in a close game and I don't see players worried about fouls as much.  Would love to have defensive efficency numbers when there is foul trouble to see if they show that.

If a player can magically make themselves stop playing softer with 2 minutes left, why couldn't they magically make themselves stop playing softer with 12 minutes left in the first? Just tell the player that if they can't play their normal, tough defense with foul trouble, they won't play at all, even at the end of a game. It's all about maximizing your best players' minutes.

There is no magic, its just inherent risk/reward.  To take it to extremes, if you play with 4 fouls with 30 minutes left in the game, the risk of challenging a shot vs. you sitting out for 30 minutes is different from when you risk sitting out the last 30 seconds of the game to challenge a shot.

I get that. It's up to the coach to make players realize they won't play at all if they don't challenge shots with 4 fouls. If the coach isn't an idiot, you could explain that the player playing hard for 15 minutes and fouling out is more valuable than playing the first ten minutes, getting 4 fouls, and sitting until the last 30 seconds.These are good players, they can handle it. If they couldn't, they wouldn't be able to change the way they allegedly do with four fouls.

[ChiComCat]

When this conversation has gone on this long, its either the off-season or Tech/TCU week.

[rob mccolley]

If you're interested, this concept has been discussed previously, and extensively. The March 2011 Illinois game at Purdue was the major example.

Illinois was up, way up, when Demetri McCamey got his second foul. Weber pulled him. The lead evaporated. Purdue won.

I was covering that game. Here's my column.
http://www.smilepolitely.com/sports/what_else_is_on_tv/

I noticed that Mark Tupper, the second most senior of the Illini media pool, seemed fixated on the "two fouls" point. I think that's the night his faith in Weber ended.

Loren Tate, the dean of the Illini media (and indeed, the Big Ten media, if you discount Gus Ganakas) addressed the issue earlier this year. He wrote a column in which he praised John Groce for leaving DJamer Richardson in a game, despite picking up his second foul. He ended the column by noting that DJamer finished the game with 2 fouls.

It was the same with McCamey: He didn't foul much.

So the point was that Weber was inflexible. He couldn't adjust to nuances. He employed hard/fast rules.

The "two foul" rule can be useful, but only if you know when to ignore it.

[wetwillie]

If you're interested, this concept has been discussed previously, and extensively. The March 2011 Illinois game at Purdue was the major example.

Illinois was up, way up, when Demetri McCamey got his second foul. Weber pulled him. The lead evaporated. Purdue won.

I was covering that game. Here's my column.
http://www.smilepolitely.com/sports/what_else_is_on_tv/

I noticed that Mark Tupper, the second most senior of the Illini media pool, seemed fixated on the "two fouls" point. I think that's the night his faith in Weber ended.

Loren Tate, the dean of the Illini media (and indeed, the Big Ten media, if you discount Gus Ganakas) addressed the issue earlier this year. He wrote a column in which he praised John Groce for leaving DJamer Richardson in a game, despite picking up his second foul. He ended the column by noting that DJamer finished the game with 2 fouls.

It was the same with McCamey: He didn't foul much.

So the point was that Weber was inflexible. He couldn't adjust to nuances. He employed hard/fast rules.

The "two foul" rule can be useful, but only if you know when to ignore it.

Can we IP ban the state of Illinois? Woof.

[MakeItRain]

Trent Johnson nearly screwed TCU tonight. When those two players got #4 he pulled them at the same time, TCU completely melted on both ends. He took out the rim protector and the only ball handler and KU, well actually Tharp, went on an instant 7-0 run. He should have left at least one of them in.

[sys]

Trent Johnson nearly screwed TCU tonight. When those two players got #4 he pulled them at the same time, TCU completely melted on both ends. He took out the rim protector and the only ball handler and KU, well actually Tharp, went on an instant 7-0 run. He should have left at least one of them in.

coaches are stupid.

[ChiComCat]

Trent Johnson nearly screwed TCU tonight. When those two players got #4 he pulled them at the same time, TCU completely melted on both ends. He took out the rim protector and the only ball handler and KU, well actually Tharp, went on an instant 7-0 run. He should have left at least one of them in.

They ended up getting the lead back without them, but yea, I would've put at least one back in. Especially with it being TCU's depth.  I don't know that Abrom ever got back in but maybe he sucks even worse at FTs than the rest of them

[rob mccolley]

Well, on the one hand, it seemed cogent to a topic being discussed on the EMAW board by regular EMAWs.

Can we IP ban the state of Illinois? Woof.

On the other hand, I believe goEMAW is one of the few boards where one user can tell another go eff yourself with a certain amount of impunity.

Take your pick.

[puniraptor]

It it possible that oscar has this set as a solid rule to absolve himself of some coaching responsibility? "I want to play you, rod, but you know the policy..."

oscar rules is rules?

[pissclams]

If you're interested, this concept has been discussed previously, and extensively. The March 2011 Illinois game at Purdue was the major example.

Illinois was up, way up, when Demetri McCamey got his second foul. Weber pulled him. The lead evaporated. Purdue won.

I was covering that game. Here's my column.
http://www.smilepolitely.com/sports/what_else_is_on_tv/

I noticed that Mark Tupper, the second most senior of the Illini media pool, seemed fixated on the "two fouls" point. I think that's the night his faith in Weber ended.

Loren Tate, the dean of the Illini media (and indeed, the Big Ten media, if you discount Gus Ganakas) addressed the issue earlier this year. He wrote a column in which he praised John Groce for leaving DJamer Richardson in a game, despite picking up his second foul. He ended the column by noting that DJamer finished the game with 2 fouls.

It was the same with McCamey: He didn't foul much.

So the point was that Weber was inflexible. He couldn't adjust to nuances. He employed hard/fast rules.

The "two foul" rule can be useful, but only if you know when to ignore it.

Can we IP ban the state of Illinois? Woof.

you're a complete dumbass.  his was a good post, yours not so much.

[kougar24]

It it possible that oscar has this set as a solid rule to absolve himself of some coaching responsibility? "I want to play you, rod, but you know the policy..."

oscar rules is rules?

It's not limited to just oscar, but I think this is entirely possible (seriously).