Our offense is stupid

[sonofdaxjones]

One major factor that tends to help out most teams on the offensive side of the floor is the recruitment, signing and subsequent playing of very good basketball players.

Is it just me, or is dax pretty much mailing his LBIQ contributions in at this point? He used to put some effort into it.

And why anyone would "lose it" when we were shredding WVU's 1-3-1 is beyond me. That was the best our O has looked all year.

Only you Kougs .  . . only you. 

Stick to bad posts on phog and to ksf.

[Stupid Fitz]

One major factor that tends to help out most teams on the offensive side of the floor is the recruitment, signing and subsequent playing of very good basketball players.

Is it just me, or is dax pretty much mailing his LBIQ contributions in at this point? He used to put some effort into it.

And why anyone would "lose it" when we were shredding WVU's 1-3-1 is beyond me. That was the best our O has looked all year.

Yeah, I was scrolling down and pretty happy people were ignoring him, until......  Good job Kougs. 

[sonofdaxjones]

Want to fix the offense?  Fix the worst 3 point shooting in the Big 12 . . . by far.

This team in transition:      

[one/64th]

_Fan basically says that our offense is fine except we can't hit shots.  You're right, it would be fine if we were making shots.  Well, when you're not hitting shots what should you do?  When I played I just kept shooting.  But if you want to win games, you try to get shots that you can/will make.  The shots that this team is making are the one's coming from Gipson on the low block.  Henceforth and therefore, he should not be getting the ball on the high block, turning to the face the basket and trying to hit Sprads/Tay/Angel on the low block or cutting to the basket.  It's pretty simple really.  Or we can keep running this crap and hope and wish that we make more 3 pointers and open 15-18 footers.   

[bubbles4ksu]

1. General poor lack of spacing offensively.

does the fball team's poor spacing also drive you crazy?  it's the same concept.

I was losing it when WVU went 1-3-1 on us and apparently none of our players could recognize the zone or have any idea what to do. (go to the middle of the zone- high post).

kstate's zone offense was fine.  more than fine.

this is just another thread for outing dumbshits, sys.

cas has always been awful x and o poster(no offense cas) but if you want to hear re-grumbled garbage that you here from analysts or some other dumb asses then boom he's your guy.

  (apologies to cas)

[michigancat]

_Fan basically says that our offense is fine except we can't hit shots.  You're right, it would be fine if we were making shots.  Well, when you're not hitting shots what should you do?  When I played I just kept shooting.  But if you want to win games, you try to get shots that you can/will make.  The shots that this team is making are the one's coming from Gipson on the low block.  Henceforth and therefore, he should not be getting the ball on the high block, turning to the face the basket and trying to hit Sprads/Tay/Angel on the low block or cutting to the basket.  It's pretty simple really.  Or we can keep running this crap and hope and wish that we make more 3 pointers and open 15-18 footers.   

hey dumbass, Gipson already gets a ridiculously high number of touches and shots:

http://kstateupdate.com/kansas-state-basketball/stats (click on "Advanced Stats")

I know you won't understand, these stats, so I'll explain. Gipson takes 27% of the team's shots when he's on the court. That's the highest for a post since Beasley, (who had the luxury of creating his own shot). For comparison, Curtis Kelly took about 22% of the teams shot's last year (third highest Shot% for a FM post) and 19.7% the year befor that. So Gipson makes a few passes from the top of the key. BFD. It would be extremely difficult to get him more shots than he's already getting.

And you're actually right about one thing, even though you're being a sarcastic moron. We HAVE to keep taking open shots if we want Gipson to get touches. The shooting percentages WILL get better.

[kso_FAN]

_Fan basically says that our offense is fine except we can't hit shots.  You're right, it would be fine if we were making shots.  Well, when you're not hitting shots what should you do?  When I played I just kept shooting.  But if you want to win games, you try to get shots that you can/will make.  The shots that this team is making are the one's coming from Gipson on the low block.  Henceforth and therefore, he should not be getting the ball on the high block, turning to the face the basket and trying to hit Sprads/Tay/Angel on the low block or cutting to the basket.  It's pretty simple really.  Or we can keep running this crap and hope and wish that we make more 3 pointers and open 15-18 footers.  

What I look for is fairly simple: 1) are we moving without the ball? 2) our we generating good shots, both inside and out? 3) Are there any numbers (shooting, TOs, ORs) that are completely out of wack?

To me this is similar to running/passing in football; you have to have balance in your offense. I'm not sure that this team (or any Frank Martin team) is capable of just running some halfcourt offense where we only try to pound it inside. If we had guards that were bigger dribble penetration threats, maybe, or if we had another back to the basket player like Gipson maybe. There is a reason we went to this offense over what Frank ran his first couple of years, which is probably more what you are talking about. We had Beasley, then we had a pair of penetrating/scoring guards with Denis/Pullen In those cases an offense that kept our bigs in the paint and tried to create more high-low opportunities worked great, but last year when we only had 1 penetrator with Pullen we struggled. Until we went to this offense which forced offensive movement and gave us better opportunities, both inside and out. And I'd say at this point we have to stick with the same plan, because we don't have the guards to run what you propose. JMHO.

[michigancat]

Also, Gipson's TO% is ridiculously good (12.1%). No one last season had a TO% under 15%. He won't stay that good for the entire season, but that number is crazy and means it's good to have him handling the ball as much as is reasonable (which we are close to). This includes passing to other players.

[_33]

I hate non-penetrating guards.

[one/64th]

_Fan basically says that our offense is fine except we can't hit shots.  You're right, it would be fine if we were making shots.  Well, when you're not hitting shots what should you do?  When I played I just kept shooting.  But if you want to win games, you try to get shots that you can/will make.  The shots that this team is making are the one's coming from Gipson on the low block.  Henceforth and therefore, he should not be getting the ball on the high block, turning to the face the basket and trying to hit Sprads/Tay/Angel on the low block or cutting to the basket.  It's pretty simple really.  Or we can keep running this crap and hope and wish that we make more 3 pointers and open 15-18 footers.   

hey dumbass, Gipson already gets a ridiculously high number of touches and shots:

http://kstateupdate.com/kansas-state-basketball/stats (click on "Advanced Stats")

I know you won't understand, these stats, so I'll explain. Gipson takes 27% of the team's shots when he's on the court. That's the highest for a post since Beasley, (who had the luxury of creating his own shot). For comparison, Curtis Kelly took about 22% of the teams shot's last year (third highest Shot% for a FM post) and 19.7% the year befor that. So Gipson makes a few passes from the top of the key. BFD. It would be extremely difficult to get him more shots than he's already getting.

And you're actually right about one thing, even though you're being a sarcastic moron. We HAVE to keep taking open shots if we want Gipson to get touches. The shooting percentages WILL get better.

So angry...I like it.  So what you're saying is that you are satisfied with our offense and how we run it?  You just hope we make more shots from the outside?  I don't know if you know this, so I'll explain it to you.  The more touches and the more success Gipson has from the LOW BLOCK, the more open our guards become on the outside or even midrange.  Thus allowing them to get higher percentage shots, THUS our guards shooting a higher percentage.  BUT with Gipson on the high block, it doesn't open much up for our guards on the outside especially since 2 of the 3 are cutting to spots under the basket.  

And wrong, it would not be EXTREMELY difficult to get him more shots.  He was 10-18 in 37 minutes.  A few of those shots were offensive boards or loose balls that didn't come as a result of the offense.  But you keep throwing out your "advanced statistics" and hope for better shooting from our guards.  dumbass.

[one/64th]

I hate non-penetrating guards.

This. 

[one/64th]

_Fan basically says that our offense is fine except we can't hit shots.  You're right, it would be fine if we were making shots.  Well, when you're not hitting shots what should you do?  When I played I just kept shooting.  But if you want to win games, you try to get shots that you can/will make.  The shots that this team is making are the one's coming from Gipson on the low block.  Henceforth and therefore, he should not be getting the ball on the high block, turning to the face the basket and trying to hit Sprads/Tay/Angel on the low block or cutting to the basket.  It's pretty simple really.  Or we can keep running this crap and hope and wish that we make more 3 pointers and open 15-18 footers.  

What I look for is fairly simple: 1) are we moving without the ball? 2) our we generating good shots, both inside and out? 3) Are there any numbers (shooting, TOs, ORs) that are completely out of wack?

To me this is similar to running/passing in football; you have to have balance in your offense. I'm not sure that this team (or any Frank Martin team) is capable of just running some halfcourt offense where we only try to pound it inside. If we had guards that were bigger dribble penetration threats, maybe, or if we had another back to the basket player like Gipson maybe. There is a reason we went to this offense over what Frank ran his first couple of years, which is probably more what you are talking about. We had Beasley, then we had a pair of penetrating/scoring guards with Denis/Pullen In those cases an offense that kept our bigs in the paint and tried to create more high-low opportunities worked great, but last year when we only had 1 penetrator with Pullen we struggled. Until we went to this offense which forced offensive movement and gave us better opportunities, both inside and out. And I'd say at this point we have to stick with the same plan, because we don't have the guards to run what you propose. JMHO.

This is a very fair assessment.  I agree with 93% of it. 

[kso_FAN]

If we were jacking 3s like crazy it would be another thing. 3PT shots are only 29.5% of our shot attempts on the season, lower than any Frank Martin coached team. If anything this team is trying to get the ball inside more than we have in the past. I really don't have a major problem with the offense. Perhaps we could run a few more sets to get shots in the paint for Gipson and others, but I really believe the biggest problem is not hitting (open) 3PT shots.

[8manpick]

Hey guys, I've got an idea: since Gipson is the only one who can score the basketball, let's pass it to him every time and let him shoot.  Makes sense right?


Some rough ridin' morons on here, Spradling, McGruder, Angel, and even Martavious will shoot better for the rest of the season.  All but Spradling (41% 3P) will improve significantly on their threes.  We will start making a better percentage on layups.  Gipson has been great, but only a dumbass thinks we will do markedly better for the rest of the year by getting him tons more touches.  We are already getting lots of touches on the block, lots of open threes, and lots of layups that we need to do a better job of making.  Our offense has done a great job of getting us open shots in places we can make them.  If it continues to do this, we will be fine.

[michigancat]

_Fan basically says that our offense is fine except we can't hit shots.  You're right, it would be fine if we were making shots.  Well, when you're not hitting shots what should you do?  When I played I just kept shooting.  But if you want to win games, you try to get shots that you can/will make.  The shots that this team is making are the one's coming from Gipson on the low block.  Henceforth and therefore, he should not be getting the ball on the high block, turning to the face the basket and trying to hit Sprads/Tay/Angel on the low block or cutting to the basket.  It's pretty simple really.  Or we can keep running this crap and hope and wish that we make more 3 pointers and open 15-18 footers.  

hey dumbass, Gipson already gets a ridiculously high number of touches and shots:

http://kstateupdate.com/kansas-state-basketball/stats (click on "Advanced Stats")

I know you won't understand, these stats, so I'll explain. Gipson takes 27% of the team's shots when he's on the court. That's the highest for a post since Beasley, (who had the luxury of creating his own shot). For comparison, Curtis Kelly took about 22% of the teams shot's last year (third highest Shot% for a FM post) and 19.7% the year befor that. So Gipson makes a few passes from the top of the key. BFD. It would be extremely difficult to get him more shots than he's already getting.

And you're actually right about one thing, even though you're being a sarcastic moron. We HAVE to keep taking open shots if we want Gipson to get touches. The shooting percentages WILL get better.

So angry...I like it.  So what you're saying is that you are satisfied with our offense and how we run it?  You just hope we make more shots from the outside?  I don't know if you know this, so I'll explain it to you.  The more touches and the more success Gipson has from the LOW BLOCK, the more open our guards become on the outside or even midrange.  Thus allowing them to get higher percentage shots, THUS our guards shooting a higher percentage.  BUT with Gipson on the high block, it doesn't open much up for our guards on the outside especially since 2 of the 3 are cutting to spots under the basket.  

And wrong, it would not be EXTREMELY difficult to get him more shots.  He was 10-18 in 37 minutes.  A few of those shots were offensive boards or loose balls that didn't come as a result of the offense.  But you keep throwing out your "advanced statistics" and hope for better shooting from our guards.  dumbass.

Ignoring stats doesn't make you look very intelligent.

[mcmwcat]

dear 1/64th,

good thread prompting some good responses.

thanks,

mcmwcat.

[one/64th]

dear 1/64th,

good thread prompting some good responses.

thanks,

mcmwcat.

Sometimes it is fun to talk real basketball stuff and not just dax saying "we need better players" and rusty saying "we should make more 3 pointers."  Although I agree with both.  _Fan is a gift from the X's & O's baby Jesus tho.  imho.

[sys]

Also, Gipson's TO% is ridiculously good (12.1%). No one last season had a TO% under 15%. He won't stay that good for the entire season, but that number is crazy and means it's good to have him handling the ball as much as is reasonable (which we are close to). This includes passing to other players.

actually it means (aside from confirming his ridiculous as a house hands) that 64th's assertion that gipson is standing at the elbow and tossing interior passes to cutting guards all game long is pure fantasy.

i honestly can't think of a single possession where he did that, it certainly isn't an important part of kstate's offense.  what a joke.

[one/64th]

Also, Gipson's TO% is ridiculously good (12.1%). No one last season had a TO% under 15%. He won't stay that good for the entire season, but that number is crazy and means it's good to have him handling the ball as much as is reasonable (which we are close to). This includes passing to other players.

actually it means (aside from confirming his ridiculous as a house hands) that 64th's assertion that gipson is standing at the elbow and tossing interior passes to cutting guards all game long is pure fantasy.

i honestly can't think of a single possession where he did that, it certainly isn't an important part of kstate's offense.  what a joke.

Not what I said sys.  I said he stands at the elbow as guards cut to the baseline.  I never said he passes it to them.  Because he doesn't.  Because they're never open.  Because that offense is not built for this team.  You would know this if you looked at the "unadvanced stats" and saw that Gipson had 0 assists.  Instead the guards cut, Gipson pivots back and passes it back to the perimeter.  Gipson's/the team's best scoring chances happened when Gipson got the ball on the low block.  Getting Gipson "touches" doesn't matter.  What matters is where he is getting those touches.  Is it a place where he can score from?  The elbow is not that place.  imo.

[sys]

ok, yeah, so answer the question i asked at the start of the thread.  what exactly is it you don't like about that - that they use so much clock?  it isn't impacting the type of shot they end up getting, especially not impacting the number of touches gipson gets in the low post.

[michigancat]

Also, Gipson's TO% is ridiculously good (12.1%). No one last season had a TO% under 15%. He won't stay that good for the entire season, but that number is crazy and means it's good to have him handling the ball as much as is reasonable (which we are close to). This includes passing to other players.

actually it means (aside from confirming his ridiculous as a house hands) that 64th's assertion that gipson is standing at the elbow and tossing interior passes to cutting guards all game long is pure fantasy.

i honestly can't think of a single possession where he did that, it certainly isn't an important part of kstate's offense.  what a joke.

good points chum1. (and I do agree).

[one/64th]

ok, yeah, so answer the question i asked at the start of the thread.  what exactly is it you don't like about that - that they use so much clock?  it isn't impacting the type of shot they end up getting, especially not impacting the number of touches gipson gets in the low post.

I'm fine with running clock (the football team has gotten me used to that).  I think the earlier in the possession that you get into your offense the better.  I think it does effect what kind of shot we get.  Instead of having 30 seconds to get a good shot, you have 12-15 seconds once you've ran that part of the offense.  (almost) nothing good comes from running that set so why waste 15 seconds running something that doesn't improve your shot. 

And why then was Unds suggesting we run something else if this was working so well?

[mcmwcat]

maybe Gip is getting a ton of touches in the low post because he has to be guarded at the elbow.  that could be making it easier for him to gain position on the block.   

[sys]

(almost) nothing good comes from running that set so why waste 15 seconds running something that doesn't improve your shot. 

And why then was Unds suggesting we run something else if this was working so well?

yeah, i agree with you about wasting time doing nothing.  just don't agree that it impacts the number of low post touches gipson gets.


this is the something else that underwood suggested, not what was working so well before he interfered.