croop, your argument rests on defining free will in a way that no one has ever defined it. except maybe cs lewis, don't know because i slept through most of those movies.
guess im just original
It's just such a blatant idiot's ploy. "If you don't believe in god then you don't believe in free will!"---->"If you don't agree with the president then you're un-American!" or "If you're for gay marriage then you're against families!"
You set it up by associating it with something most people don't want to be labeled as. It's a tactic geared toward swaying the simple-minded. "I don't want to be that thing that he said so I'd better agree with him!"
no ploy here, bread... but since you've reverted to basically using the exact tactic your accusing me of against me, I'll try and explain better or maybe it's just a misunderstanding of defining the terms upfront.
Free will - the freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention (commonly viewed as having a soul/conscience)
Atheist - a rejection of belief in the existence of god/deities. Which I'm assuming they don't believe in life after death or that people have a soul.
So here are the two main view points about free will:
1.) All things, current and future, are the result of prior events and therefore anything that will happen has already been preordained and cannot be changed.
A.) both deity believing and atheist people can technically believe this - I associated my argument with a christian god definition (which does not allow this viewpoint), but I guess someone could believe in a god that has their entire life planned for them and there is nothing they can do to change it.
1.1) (since someone brought up quantum phsyics) All things, current and future, are the result of prior events, but through the inherent 'random' nature of quantum level interactions, there are an infinite number of possibilities that can result - random is quoted since we/me don't really understand how something can truly be random.
A.) Again, both deity believing and atheist people can technically believe this - but it still does not allow for free will to exist, only infinite randomness. So, our lives are not preordained, but we do not possess the ability to freely choose our own path. This one is tricky though...
2.) All things, current and future, are the result of prior events or randomness at the quantum level, but through free will people make choices to direct their path in life.
A.) I don't see how an atheist can believe this and have their view on life hold up (help me if I'm wrong). In order for us to have the ability to freely choose (make a choice that is not determined by prior causes) what is right/wrong/good/bad/etc. there has to be something that exists outside of the physical world that influences us. The prior two view points rely upon either prior cause or random interaction (but still physical or material interaction) to determine future events, so they leave no room for the existence free will. Therefore, if intervention beyond the physical world (i.e. metaphysical) is necessary for free will to exist, then how can someone who does not believe in the existence of a soul (again, I'm assuming atheist don't believe in souls/consciences) hold that free will exists and there is no god?
not saying any of the above ways are better than the other, just trying to make logical arguments...
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