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TITLETOWN - A Decade Long Celebration Of The Greatest Achievement In College Athletics History => Kansas State Basketball is hard => Topic started by: CHONGS on December 19, 2010, 11:14:37 AM
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I admit I am not able to keep up the all the recruiting buzz as you do. I know the names and stars I guess, but not the "word on the street".
Are we really in trouble with our recruiting? Is Frank recruiting Doc Sadler-level talent? Mike Anderson-level?
How worried should EMAWs be?
Is the "3-star fit" a valid talking point?
(I might have follow q's)
tia
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I admit I am not able to keep up the all the recruiting buzz as you do. I know the names and stars I guess, but not the "word on the street".
Are we really in trouble with our recruiting? Is Frank recruiting Doc Sadler-level talent? Mike Anderson-level?
How worried should EMAWs be?
Is the "3-star fit" a valid talking point?
(I might have follow q's)
tia
no, no, yes, not worried, yeah, kinda.
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:curse:
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OK re-bump
new question:
Lets assume that our recruiting is something EMAWs should be worried about, then what is the problem with the staff?
Is is because they are lazy (the dax position)?
Or just ineffective?
or both?
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WRSOAT?
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Well, I think they made a big mistake with the 2008 class. They completely overestimated their abilities and rough ridin' whiffed on everything. Got CK, though, which was nice. But I think this was a real slap in the face for them.
They've definitely shifted their strategy to offering lower level recruits earlier. It really isn't a bad plan as long as you don't think replacing Fred Brown with Martavious Irving and Ron Anderson with JHR is a good idea - these second tier recruits often end up being pretty good players as juniors and seniors.
aTm is a good model of this. Under Turgeon, they really don't have a lot of roster upheaval, so they've been led by a a solid core of 4-5 juniors and seniors every year. None of the recruits have been real head-turners, but they've been able to get decent minutes as freshmen and sophomores which prepared them to lead the team as juniors and seniors.
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Well, I think they made a big mistake with the 2008 class. They completely overestimated their abilities and effing whiffed on everything. Got CK, though, which was nice. But I think this was a real slap in the face for them.
They've definitely shifted their strategy to offering lower level recruits earlier. It really isn't a bad plan as long as you don't think replacing Fred Brown with Martavious Irving and Ron Anderson with JHR is a good idea - these second tier recruits often end up being pretty good players as juniors and seniors.
aTm is a good model of this. Under Turgeon, they really don't have a lot of roster upheaval, so they've been led by a a solid core of 4-5 juniors and seniors every year. None of the recruits have been real head-turners, but they've been able to get decent minutes as freshmen and sophomores which prepared them to lead the team as juniors and seniors.
Big bowl of SLTH gumbo.
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Why would you want to play for a coach who will not play you if you make one mistake and you have a 30% chance of being run off?
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Well, I think they made a big mistake with the 2008 class. They completely overestimated their abilities and effing whiffed on everything. Got CK, though, which was nice. But I think this was a real slap in the face for them.
They've definitely shifted their strategy to offering lower level recruits earlier. It really isn't a bad plan as long as you don't think replacing Fred Brown with Martavious Irving and Ron Anderson with JHR is a good idea - these second tier recruits often end up being pretty good players as juniors and seniors.
aTm is a good model of this. Under Turgeon, they really don't have a lot of roster upheaval, so they've been led by a a solid core of 4-5 juniors and seniors every year. None of the recruits have been real head-turners, but they've been able to get decent minutes as freshmen and sophomores which prepared them to lead the team as juniors and seniors.
Big bowl of SLTH gumbo.
For the most part, yes. But Frank's second tier recruiting is better than Doc's top tier recruiting.
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Why would you want to play for a coach who will not play you if you make one mistake and you have a 30% chance of being run off?
Frank lets lots of players make lots of mistakes. This is a dumb talking point.
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Why would you want to play for a coach who will not play you if you make one mistake and you have a 30% chance of being run off?
Frank lets lots of players make lots of mistakes. This is a dumb talking point.
I refuse to believe that a recruit sees that. You think a 5* looks at Frank's treatment of players and wants to play here? I'm sure 5 heart players do, but I don't want them anymore.
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I refuse to believe that a recruit sees that. You think a 5* looks at Frank's treatment of players and wants to play here? I'm sure 5 heart players do, but I don't want them anymore.
I do not think Frank's "treatment of players" has much of a negative affect on recruiting, because what he does isn't much different from most coaches. You just don't notice because you don't pay attention to any other teams.
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The feasible change needed in recruiting is to get one big time guy ever once in a while. Mix them in with the rest and keep the classes balanced, and we should do well with this.
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I refuse to believe that a recruit sees that. You think a 5* looks at Frank's treatment of players and wants to play here? I'm sure 5 heart players do, but I don't want them anymore.
I do not think Frank's "treatment of players" has much of a negative affect on recruiting, because what he does isn't much different from most coaches. You just don't notice because you don't pay attention to any other teams.
How can you watch other teams? All I can think is, "Man it'd be nice to look like that".
:bawl:
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Why would you want to play for a coach who will not play you if you make one mistake and you have a 30% chance of being run off?
Frank lets lots of players make lots of mistakes. This is a dumb talking point.
Very dumb. Frank will let you make a mistake if you don't shazbot! off in practice and if he thinks you will ever learn from the mistake down the line.
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I think I will reserve judgment until the '12 class is complete. I don't care how frank gets players here whether it is a transfer(CK, Denis, Omari?, Aspirilla, etc) or traditional high school kids. If he fails to land any top 100 level talent in the 2012 class or bring in another high level transfer then I will fall off the bandwagon. We got him his practice facility and his contract extension it isn't unreasonable to expect him to get a big name especially since he put together very average recruiting classes in '10 and '11.
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One and doners aren't going to come to KSU....for those thinking we'll land a class of Beasley's every year, you're going to be disappointed. As I've said before, we aren't going to recruit with KU. What we can do is sign solid 3 and 4 star players that will likely be solid contributors as juniors and seniors. That's my hope.
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As I said on another tread . . . Gipson, Rodriquez (if he signs) and Diaz is baseline recruiting for this staff, anything less than that is a complete failure, particularly in light of the fact that we're paying an assistant $450K a year to supposedly land us a "blue chip" now and again.
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One and doners aren't going to come to KSU....for those thinking we'll land a class of Beasley's every year, you're going to be disappointed. As I've said before, we aren't going to recruit with KU. What we can do is sign solid 3 and 4 star players that will likely be solid contributors as juniors and seniors. That's my hope.
there is no reason at all that there can't be a one and doner every few years. Frank has shown the ability to feature those players and get them to the next level. He certainly doesn't Rush or Cole them and slow their path to the League.
A one and doner doesn't give a crap where he plays. He wants his stats and he wants to stay healthy. Does he want to win? Sure, but it's not at the top of the list.
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Well, I think they made a big mistake with the 2008 class. They completely overestimated their abilities and effing whiffed on everything. Got CK, though, which was nice. But I think this was a real slap in the face for them.
They've definitely shifted their strategy to offering lower level recruits earlier. It really isn't a bad plan as long as you don't think replacing Fred Brown with Martavious Irving and Ron Anderson with JHR is a good idea - these second tier recruits often end up being pretty good players as juniors and seniors.
aTm is a good model of this. Under Turgeon, they really don't have a lot of roster upheaval, so they've been led by a a solid core of 4-5 juniors and seniors every year. None of the recruits have been real head-turners, but they've been able to get decent minutes as freshmen and sophomores which prepared them to lead the team as juniors and seniors.
Big bowl of SLTH gumbo.
For the most part, yes. But Frank's second tier recruiting is better than Doc's top tier recruiting.
so why are they currently better?
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One and doners aren't going to come to KSU....for those thinking we'll land a class of Beasley's every year, you're going to be disappointed. As I've said before, we aren't going to recruit with KU. What we can do is sign solid 3 and 4 star players that will likely be solid contributors as juniors and seniors. That's my hope.
there is no reason at all that there can't be a one and doner every few years. Frank has shown the ability to feature those players and get them to the next level. He certainly doesn't Rush or Cole them and slow their path to the League.
A one and doner doesn't give a crap where he plays. He wants his stats and he wants to stay healthy. Does he want to win? Sure, but it's not at the top of the list.
I don't even care about the one-and-done kids. Just land one or two top 100's a year, and I'll be pretty happy. Beat Oklahoma State or Marquette or aTm for a recruit some time. People dissatisfied with recruiting don't expect us to be Carolina over night, we just want us to get a little better.
so why are they currently better?
Are they?
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I don't even care about the one-and-done kids. Just land one or two top 100's a year, and I'll be pretty happy. Beat Oklahoma State or Marquette or aTm for a recruit some time. People dissatisfied with recruiting don't expect us to be Carolina over night, we just want us to get a little better.
Amazingly, I completely agree with this. Sounds like reasonable expectations.
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Rusty is in a pretty solid mood right now. I like it. Kind of restores a bit of my hope that's been eroded away over the past few months.
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Why would you want to play for a coach who will not play you if you make one mistake and you have a 30% chance of being run off?
Frank lets lots of players make lots of mistakes. This is a dumb talking point.
I refuse to believe that a recruit sees that. You think a 5* looks at Frank's treatment of players and wants to play here? I'm sure 5 heart players do, but I don't want them anymore.
You give these kids way too much credit.
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Is is because they are lazy (the dax position)?
Or just ineffective?
or both?
A new option emerged: They staff bit off more than they could chew in 2008 (the rusty theory) and struck out.
was this caused by being lazy and complacent?
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Is is because they are lazy (the dax position)?
Or just ineffective?
or both?
A new option emerged: They staff bit off more than they could chew in 2008 (the rusty theory) and struck out.
was this caused by being lazy and complacent?
I don't think so. By all indications, they were recruiting hard back then. I think they just used poor judgment for the 2008 class and then made it worse by running off players like Sutton, Brown, and Anderson. And I don't think all our problems are due to the 2008 class, it's just that it changed their approach for the 2010 and 2011 classes.
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Good thread, especially Rusty's posts.
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I refuse to believe that a recruit sees that. You think a 5* looks at Frank's treatment of players and wants to play here? I'm sure 5 heart players do, but I don't want them anymore.
I do not think Frank's "treatment of players" has much of a negative affect on recruiting, because what he does isn't much different from most coaches. You just don't notice because you don't pay attention to any other teams.
Coach K dropped the ol' [redacted] today
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I refuse to believe that a recruit sees that. You think a 5* looks at Frank's treatment of players and wants to play here? I'm sure 5 heart players do, but I don't want them anymore.
I do not think Frank's "treatment of players" has much of a negative affect on recruiting, because what he does isn't much different from most coaches. You just don't notice because you don't pay attention to any other teams.
I'm not sure about recruiting but I think negative treatment has a negative effect on the program at some level. Whether it means that recruits don't come (maybe our 2 defections to mizzou?) or players leave early (long list) it has to have some negative effect somewhere. You don't see Franks kind of negative reinforcement in other top tier coaches. If a player fucks up they usually stay in. You look at Duke/SJU game Sunday coach K never did that when basic fundamentals on the defensive end were ignored. SJU was able to attack the rim at will, failure at all levels to stop penetration. K never took out his best players for long periods of time to punish them. When SJU started to have defensive breakdowns allowing Duke to come back to 15 Lavin (sp) took players out, instructed them and got them back into the flow of the game. Look at Michigan State, a team with a collapse just as massive as ours. Izzou isn't destroying his players for the sake of destruction. He is teaching them how they mumped up and where they need to be next time.
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I refuse to believe that a recruit sees that. You think a 5* looks at Frank's treatment of players and wants to play here? I'm sure 5 heart players do, but I don't want them anymore.
I do not think Frank's "treatment of players" has much of a negative affect on recruiting, because what he does isn't much different from most coaches. You just don't notice because you don't pay attention to any other teams.
I'm not sure about recruiting but I think negative treatment has a negative effect on the program at some level. Whether it means that recruits don't come (maybe our 2 defections to mizzou?) or players leave early (long list) it has to have some negative effect somewhere. You don't see Franks kind of negative reinforcement in other top tier coaches. If a player effs up they usually stay in. You look at Duke/SJU game Sunday coach K never did that when basic fundamentals on the defensive end were ignored. SJU was able to attack the rim at will, failure at all levels to stop penetration. K never took out his best players for long periods of time to punish them. When SJU started to have defensive breakdowns allowing Duke to come back to 15 Lavin (sp) took players out, instructed them and got them back into the flow of the game. Look at Michigan State, a team with a collapse just as massive as ours. Izzou isn't destroying his players for the sake of destruction. He is teaching them how they effed up and where they need to be next time.
personally if i were a recruit and i had a choice between going to a school coached by frank martin, where i would get benched all the time for unknown reasons, or i could go to a school coached by bill self who really doesnt give a crap if i push a bitch into a sink, im gonna go to school where i can push that rough ridin' bitch into the god damn sink...
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I refuse to believe that a recruit sees that. You think a 5* looks at Frank's treatment of players and wants to play here? I'm sure 5 heart players do, but I don't want them anymore.
I do not think Frank's "treatment of players" has much of a negative affect on recruiting, because what he does isn't much different from most coaches. You just don't notice because you don't pay attention to any other teams.
I'm not sure about recruiting but I think negative treatment has a negative effect on the program at some level. Whether it means that recruits don't come (maybe our 2 defections to mizzou?) or players leave early (long list) it has to have some negative effect somewhere. You don't see Franks kind of negative reinforcement in other top tier coaches. If a player fucks up they usually stay in. You look at Duke/SJU game Sunday coach K never did that when basic fundamentals on the defensive end were ignored. SJU was able to attack the rim at will, failure at all levels to stop penetration. K never took out his best players for long periods of time to punish them. When SJU started to have defensive breakdowns allowing Duke to come back to 15 Lavin (sp) took players out, instructed them and got them back into the flow of the game. Look at Michigan State, a team with a collapse just as massive as ours. Izzou isn't destroying his players for the sake of destruction. He is teaching them how they mumped up and where they need to be next time.
You notice how Frank never yelled at Beasley and Clemente and Walker? Yeah. If Frank had Nolan Smith, he wouldn't come out if he made mistakes. If he had Kyle Singler, he wouldn't come out if he made mistakes, just like McGruder, Pullen, and Samuels don't come out for making mistakes. And if you think Steve Lavin is some kind of in-game mastermind, well, OK. Run with that.
And Izzo kicked an RSCI top 100 junior off the team last week. :dunno:
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I refuse to believe that a recruit sees that. You think a 5* looks at Frank's treatment of players and wants to play here? I'm sure 5 heart players do, but I don't want them anymore.
I do not think Frank's "treatment of players" has much of a negative affect on recruiting, because what he does isn't much different from most coaches. You just don't notice because you don't pay attention to any other teams.
I'm not sure about recruiting but I think negative treatment has a negative effect on the program at some level. Whether it means that recruits don't come (maybe our 2 defections to mizzou?) or players leave early (long list) it has to have some negative effect somewhere. You don't see Franks kind of negative reinforcement in other top tier coaches. If a player effs up they usually stay in. You look at Duke/SJU game Sunday coach K never did that when basic fundamentals on the defensive end were ignored. SJU was able to attack the rim at will, failure at all levels to stop penetration. K never took out his best players for long periods of time to punish them. When SJU started to have defensive breakdowns allowing Duke to come back to 15 Lavin (sp) took players out, instructed them and got them back into the flow of the game. Look at Michigan State, a team with a collapse just as massive as ours. Izzou isn't destroying his players for the sake of destruction. He is teaching them how they effed up and where they need to be next time.
personally if i were a recruit and i had a choice between going to a school coached by frank martin, where i would get benched all the time for unknown reasons, or i could go to a school coached by bill self who really doesnt give a crap if i push a bitch into a sink, im gonna go to school where i can push that rough ridin' bitch into the god damn sink...
Yeah, I bet Travis Releford is a big fan of the push the bitch into a sink policy. So is Quintrell Thomas and Tyrone Appleton, etc.
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My LBBIQ is making love to this thread right now! :love:
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LBBIQ Recruiting Analysis -- The targeting of recruits is well above average. Frank and co. have locked on to a lot of 'cruits early who end up moving up the charts. The problem has been closing on those recruits, which is something they need to fix. Really wish Willie Reed was going to be on the team next year though.
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Remember pre-season how happy we were, oh, those were the days.
we even had kids wanting to transfer here or walk on here that would not have even come her on a scholly in prior years.
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i pretty much agree with everything michiganc said in this thread. to more directly address chingon, i think the staff may focus a little too narrowly when picking recruiting targets, and may take a little bit too much time in handing out offers. oth, i think they know what they're doing, and generally have a very good handle on recruiting landscapes.
i don't think they're lazy, and i do agree that they changed strategies a bit with 2010 and 2011 re. a possible overconfidence problem.
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I refuse to believe that a recruit sees that. You think a 5* looks at Frank's treatment of players and wants to play here? I'm sure 5 heart players do, but I don't want them anymore.
I do not think Frank's "treatment of players" has much of a negative affect on recruiting, because what he does isn't much different from most coaches. You just don't notice because you don't pay attention to any other teams.
I'm not sure about recruiting but I think negative treatment has a negative effect on the program at some level. Whether it means that recruits don't come (maybe our 2 defections to mizzou?) or players leave early (long list) it has to have some negative effect somewhere. You don't see Franks kind of negative reinforcement in other top tier coaches. If a player effs up they usually stay in. You look at Duke/SJU game Sunday coach K never did that when basic fundamentals on the defensive end were ignored. SJU was able to attack the rim at will, failure at all levels to stop penetration. K never took out his best players for long periods of time to punish them. When SJU started to have defensive breakdowns allowing Duke to come back to 15 Lavin (sp) took players out, instructed them and got them back into the flow of the game. Look at Michigan State, a team with a collapse just as massive as ours. Izzou isn't destroying his players for the sake of destruction. He is teaching them how they effed up and where they need to be next time.
personally if i were a recruit and i had a choice between going to a school coached by frank martin, where i would get benched all the time for unknown reasons, or i could go to a school coached by bill self who really doesnt give a crap if i push a bitch into a sink, im gonna go to school where i can push that effing bitch into the god damn sink...
Yeah, I bet Travis Releford is a big fan of the push the bitch into a sink policy. So is Quintrell Thomas and Tyrone Appleton, etc.
maybe if travis releford would push a bitch into a sink he'd be a fan of the policy.
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Seems like the intense media attention to Frank shows that his behavior is not all that common. Yeah, even quiet dudes like Coach K will rip their player's asses but that is not the norm for them. Frank does nothing but rip ass, I seldom see him praise his players. Last year, I was totally cool with Frank's behavior but I've soured a bit on it this season. Plus, it's much harder to defend his behavior to non KSU fans this year and that's a bit of a pain in the ass.
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Remember that one time when Kansas State University had signed Mike Beasley and Bill Walker...AND got a soft verbal from OJ Mayo?.........I miss you huggie bear. eff off frank... for now..
I cant even imagine what it would of been like if OJ Mayo didnt take those benefits etc...and signed with Bill at KSU.
PG- Clent Stewart
SG-OJ Mayo
SF-Bill Walker
PF- ???????????????
C- Michael Beasley
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Remember that one time when Kansas State University had signed Mike Beasley and Bill Walker...AND got a soft verbal from OJ Mayo?.........I miss you huggie bear. eff off frank... for now..
I cant even imagine what it would of been like if OJ Mayo didnt take those benefits etc...and signed with Bill at KSU.
PG- Clent Stewart
SG-OJ Mayo
SF-Bill Walker
PF- ???????????????
C- Michael Beasley
Good chance we could have had 1 average D1 player out there with 3 superstars. Just need to find a point guard.
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Remember that one time when Kansas State University had signed Mike Beasley and Bill Walker...AND got a soft verbal from OJ Mayo?.........I miss you huggie bear. eff off frank... for now..
I cant even imagine what it would of been like if OJ Mayo didnt take those benefits etc...and signed with Bill at KSU.
PG- Clent Stewart
SG-OJ Mayo
SF-Bill Walker
PF- DAREN KENT (WHO WOULD HE HAVE DUNKED ON IN THE TOURNY IF OJ WAS ON HIS OWN TEAM!?)
C- Michael Beasley