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TITLETOWN - A Decade Long Celebration Of The Greatest Achievement In College Athletics History => Kansas State Basketball is hard => Topic started by: 420seriouscat69 on February 24, 2016, 10:52:16 AM
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http://www.kansascity.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/sam-mellinger/article62158357.html
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Royals Daily report for Feb. 23 with The Star's Rustin Dodd and Blair Kerkhoff: The Royals practiced with the full squad for the first time at spring training. Players also were sized for their 2015 World Series rings.
John Sleezer [email protected]
As always, thanks for your help, and thanks for reading.
oscar Weber built Southern Illinois from three straight losing seasons to consecutive conference titles before he left, went 37-2 and won a second consecutive conference title in his second year at Illinois, and won the school’s first conference title in a generation his first year at K-State.
So, yes. I do think he’s a good coach.
There’s a reason I referenced the inkblot test in the column. Weber presents himself poorly, both on the sideline and in news conferences, and that stuff is important in modern college athletics, so his inkblot often ends up looking like a coach who is too sensitive and won’t take responsibly for mistakes.
I happen to believe there is a substance about him that he does a poor job portraying, but whatever, he has enough of a track record that we can make any case we want.
Point: He missed the NCAA Tournament three of his last five seasons at Illinois, when he had his own players.
Counterpoint: He was never going to live up to comparisons to Self, but did have a better season at Illinois than Self had* and has done better at K-State than Illinois has with his replacement.
* In Weber’s second season there, not his first, so even as those were mostly Self’s recruits the question about whose players they were is more ambiguous.
It’s interesting that the column was taken by many as a defense of Weber. I want to be clear, if the headline wasn’t clear enough: he’s behind schedule.
If the rest of the column wasn’t clear enough: he needs to improve. The roster turnover is on him. He professed to learn lessons at Illinois that would help him at K-State, but he’s repeated some of the same mistakes. He’s four years into a job at a major program and complaining about not having playmakers when he kicked the best playmaker he’s recruited here off the team.
But none of this means firing him right now is anything other than self-destructive or reactionary.
And saying he should not be fired right now is different than arguing about whether he should’ve been hired in the first place (which is where a lot of the Weber criticism seems rooted) or that he won’t be fairly fired after next season.
If you want Weber fired, the time was after last season. The roster turnover was largely his own guys, and they had a losing season. Firing him then would’ve meant firing the coach who won a conference title two years earlier, and went to the NCAA Tournament two of his three years there, so it’s not what I’d have done, but whatever. To each his own.
The K-State administration stuck with him, and this season the team has generally outplayed its talent level. The recruiting class is promising. That’s not a fireable offense.
Firing him now means resetting, and essentially wiping away a year-plus of investment in rebuilding the roster. Again, this is not an argument about whether Weber should’ve been hired four years ago, or whether he should’ve been fired last year.
We’re talking about whether a coach who beat the No. 1 team in the country, and lost a lot of close games while playing a lot of freshmen and other players who will be back next year should be fired.
The other question, and reasonable people can disagree here, is whether Weber is good enough for the job. I believe he’s a good coach, and that K-State will be noticeably better next year and that he can — can — be the kind of coach who puts K-State consistently in the top half of the league and NCAA Tournament.
When Weber was hired, I had the same reaction a lot of K-State fans had. It didn’t make sense to me, and I thought the program could do better. The more I learned about him, the more I saw how it could work. I thought Weber would be further along by now, which is why I’m not here saying he’s a great coach and that criticism of him is unfair.
I just think that firing him now would be a mistake.
I was once ridiculed for not saying Dayton Moore and Ned Yost should be fired, too. Crazier things have happened.
Read more here: http://www.kansascity.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/sam-mellinger/article62158357.html#storylink=cpy
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what? the Ned Yost comment? I disagree with Sam on that.
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:lol: Yes, Total dweeb!
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People want Weber fired
Somebody else who people wanted fired was successful
Weber will be successful
This reminds me of the tuck favorite
Our recruiting class is full of 2*s
Jordy Nelson was a 2*
Our class is full of Jordy Nelsons
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This is train of logic was pretty good too.
Maybe he should have been fired last year, but it would've been dumb to fire him last year, so its dumb to fire him last year.
At least that is what it seemed like.
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none of his attempt at logic is logical and I now think mellinger is about 20 iq points dumber than I would have thought before he gave his weber opinions.
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it is impossible for a "keep weber" opinion to sound good or correct
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If I met mellinger I'd tell him that I never would have hired oscar and that yes I would have fired him after last year and that yes I'd fire him after this year as well. so try that brainbuster on for size mellinger with your 94iq.
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it is impossible for a "keep weber" opinion to sound good or correct
Final four bitch
Weber is a flawed coach, but he is also a special coach. Does he fit at KSU? He will almost certainly be coaching KSU next season, and that will likely determine his career. He will also almost certainly pass 400 DI wins and 300 wins as a high major coach next season, which is no small accomplishment in 19 years.
KSU's last Final Four banner is from 1964. For all his flaws, Weber is one of the few coaches you can get who has the proven ability to take KSU to a Final Four if he gets the right players. Before anyone bashes this staff's recruiting, remember that Weber and Lowery took SIU to two NCAA Sweet Sixteens not so long ago with players they (both) recruited. If they can do that at SIU, they can recruit a Final Four squad to KSU.
I would not be at all shocked to see KSU in the Final Four during Wade's senior season. I am not saying it will happen, but yes there are some pretty good pieces already in place, and more interesting pieces already in the pipeline. Sneed looks like a very nice get, and I think xWhomper may turn out to be a pleasant surprise when he gets healthy. Next season will answer some major questions for both Weber and KSU, imo.
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it is impossible for a "keep weber" opinion to sound good or correct
Final four bitch
Weber is a flawed coach, but he is also a special coach. Does he fit at KSU? He will almost certainly be coaching KSU next season, and that will likely determine his career. He will also almost certainly pass 400 DI wins and 300 wins as a high major coach next season, which is no small accomplishment in 19 years.
KSU's last Final Four banner is from 1964. For all his flaws, Weber is one of the few coaches you can get who has the proven ability to take KSU to a Final Four if he gets the right players. Before anyone bashes this staff's recruiting, remember that Weber and Lowery took SIU to two NCAA Sweet Sixteens not so long ago with players they (both) recruited. If they can do that at SIU, they can recruit a Final Four squad to KSU.
I would not be at all shocked to see KSU in the Final Four during Wade's senior season. I am not saying it will happen, but yes there are some pretty good pieces already in place, and more interesting pieces already in the pipeline. Sneed looks like a very nice get, and I think xWhomper may turn out to be a pleasant surprise when he gets healthy. Next season will answer some major questions for both Weber and KSU, imo.
have you lost your mind?
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If it's not a GPC cut and paste then yes, he has likely lost his mind.
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Sam was watching TV and talking to his girl while writing that, or something. It reads slightly better than a rough outline. Also, that rough outline was full of stupidity and he did nothing to reason any of it other than basically say that oscar is Dayton Moore.
I am with Rick. Sam isn't smart, apparently. Either that, or he thinks that the audience of that particular article is so dumb that it just won't matter, so why not put most of his focus on Better Call Saul.
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Weber is a flawed coach, but he is also a special coach. Does he fit at KSU? He will almost certainly be coaching KSU next season, and that will likely determine his career. He will also almost certainly pass 400 DI wins and 300 wins as a high major coach next season, which is no small accomplishment in 19 years.
KSU's last Final Four banner is from 1964. For all his flaws, Weber is one of the few coaches you can get who has the proven ability to take KSU to a Final Four if he gets the right players. Before anyone bashes this staff's recruiting, remember that Weber and Lowery took SIU to two NCAA Sweet Sixteens not so long ago with players they (both) recruited. If they can do that at SIU, they can recruit a Final Four squad to KSU.
I would not be at all shocked to see KSU in the Final Four during Wade's senior season. I am not saying it will happen, but yes there are some pretty good pieces already in place, and more interesting pieces already in the pipeline. Sneed looks like a very nice get, and I think xWhomper may turn out to be a pleasant surprise when he gets healthy. Next season will answer some major questions for both Weber and KSU, imo.
i agree with more of that than i disagree with. and i'd fire him as soon as i could find him.
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Smellinger.
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this season the team has generally outplayed its talent level
what would our record be if we didn't "outplay our talent level"?
Overall, that was a very difficult read.
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Sam was watching TV and talking to his girl while writing that, or something. It reads slightly better than a rough outline. Also, that rough outline was full of stupidity and he did nothing to reason any of it other than basically say that oscar is Dayton Moore.
I am with Rick. Sam isn't smart, apparently. Either that, or he thinks that the audience of that particular article is so dumb that it just won't matter, so why not put most of his focus on Better Call Saul.
you forgot his great point that kstate shouldn't fire weber because southern illinois won the valley fourteen years ago.
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Weber is a flawed coach, but he is also a special coach. Does he fit at KSU? He will almost certainly be coaching KSU next season, and that will likely determine his career. He will also almost certainly pass 400 DI wins and 300 wins as a high major coach next season, which is no small accomplishment in 19 years.
KSU's last Final Four banner is from 1964. For all his flaws, Weber is one of the few coaches you can get who has the proven ability to take KSU to a Final Four if he gets the right players. Before anyone bashes this staff's recruiting, remember that Weber and Lowery took SIU to two NCAA Sweet Sixteens not so long ago with players they (both) recruited. If they can do that at SIU, they can recruit a Final Four squad to KSU.
I would not be at all shocked to see KSU in the Final Four during Wade's senior season. I am not saying it will happen, but yes there are some pretty good pieces already in place, and more interesting pieces already in the pipeline. Sneed looks like a very nice get, and I think xWhomper may turn out to be a pleasant surprise when he gets healthy. Next season will answer some major questions for both Weber and KSU, imo.
i agree with more of that than i disagree with. and i'd fire him as soon as i could find him.
yes, actually most of what he said is factual.
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I'm sure oscar let out a huge sigh of relief after reading that article.
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Wacky, have you heard if our redshirts will be back next year? Will we issue a 4th scholarship when Hollywoods leaves? I still think a stud assistant besides twocoaches would help.
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I'm sure oscar let out a huge sigh of relief after reading that article.
I bet he will offer to mow Mellingers yard after that article
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Sam was watching TV and talking to his girl while writing that, or something. It reads slightly better than a rough outline. Also, that rough outline was full of stupidity and he did nothing to reason any of it other than basically say that oscar is Dayton Moore.
I am with Rick. Sam isn't smart, apparently. Either that, or he thinks that the audience of that particular article is so dumb that it just won't matter, so why not put most of his focus on Better Call Saul.
you forgot his great point that kstate shouldn't fire weber because southern illinois won the valley fourteen years ago.
Maybe a long term extension makes sense, then. I mean, when Conf Armageddon hits, it would be nice if we could win our conf(the valley) quickly after settling in. Who better than a guy who has done it.
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this season the team has generally outplayed its talent level
what would our record be if we didn't "outplay our talent level"?
Overall, that was a very difficult read.
Why the eff don't we have a higher talent level then? If we outplayed our talent level to finish second to last, what has oscar done to our program?
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this season the team has generally outplayed its talent level
what would our record be if we didn't "outplay our talent level"?
Overall, that was a very difficult read.
Why the eff don't we have a higher talent level then? If we outplayed our talent level to finish second to last, what has oscar done to our program?
To be fair, that is often said about our football program as well.
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Sam credited oscar with losing last year's transfers, but then implies that it isn't his fault that we have no talent.
Weird.
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this season the team has generally outplayed its talent level
what would our record be if we didn't "outplay our talent level"?
Overall, that was a very difficult read.
Why the eff don't we have a higher talent level then? If we outplayed our talent level to finish second to last, what has oscar done to our program?
To be fair, that is often said about our football program as well.
Not when we finish 2nd to last
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this season the team has generally outplayed its talent level
what would our record be if we didn't "outplay our talent level"?
Overall, that was a very difficult read.
Why the eff don't we have a higher talent level then? If we outplayed our talent level to finish second to last, what has oscar done to our program?
To be fair, that is often said about our football program as well.
My god. Can you even imagine what would happen if oscar roughed out a diamond like Jordy? :surprised:
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people say that all the time about coaches. they don't just say it, they apply it in voting for coach of the year, etc. coaches are simply not held responsible for recruiting.
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this season the team has generally outplayed its talent level
what would our record be if we didn't "outplay our talent level"?
Overall, that was a very difficult read.
Why the eff don't we have a higher talent level then? If we outplayed our talent level to finish second to last, what has oscar done to our program?
To be fair, that is often said about our football program as well.
Not when we finish 2nd to last
Great point.
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this season the team has generally outplayed its talent level
what would our record be if we didn't "outplay our talent level"?
This is one of the better pro-Weber talking points. "With last year's turnover and this group of players I wasn't sure we would win a conference game" is something I've read a couple of times. When the rationale to keep someone is based on the fact that we're just really bad when they thought we'd be terrible is mind boggling.
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I wish Weber would just win a lot of games every year and get to the sweet sixteen 2 out of every 5 years.
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I wish Weber would just win a lot of games every year and get to the sweet sixteen 2 out of every 5 years.
1 of our pal learnin's talking points is that oscar isn't winning as many games because people don't like him and we never gave him a chance when he was hired. oscar can act like a dipshit and make all the excuses he wants if he wins 20+ games every year and makes a run in the tournament every 3-4 as far as I'm concerned and I'd be fine with him.
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I wish Weber would just win a lot of games every year and get to the sweet sixteen 2 out of every 5 years.
1 of our pal learnin's talking points is that oscar isn't winning as many games because people don't like him and we never gave him a chance when he was hired. oscar can act like a dipshit and make all the excuses he wants if he wins 20+ games every year and makes a run in the tournament every 3-4 as far as I'm concerned and I'd be fine with him.
I mean, Frank acted like a total dipshit in many ways.
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I hated the Weber hire, was impressed when he won the Big 12 in his first year, but am concerned about the downward trajectory of the last three years. I'm willing to give him one more year, but the expectation for next year should be pretty high. Starting lineup of DJamer, Wade, Westicles, Brown, and Stokes is very solid. Anything worse than a six seed in the NCAA will be a disappointment in my opinion. I hate how Weber makes excuses, but the reality is that losing Stokes this year was a killer.
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oscar was the toast of the town just 2 years ago.
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I wish Weber would just win a lot of games every year and get to the sweet sixteen 2 out of every 5 years.
1 of our pal learnin's talking points is that oscar isn't winning as many games because people don't like him and we never gave him a chance when he was hired. oscar can act like a dipshit and make all the excuses he wants if he wins 20+ games every year and makes a run in the tournament every 3-4 as far as I'm concerned and I'd be fine with him.
I mean, Frank acted like a total dipshit in many ways.
Winning generally will cause most fans to put up with many antics. Many will become endearing qualities of the coach.
"BUY IN OR QUIT!"
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Now all we need is for oscar to start winning. I'm ready! Are you?
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losing stokes hurts as much as it does because oscar put us in the position where we needed to rely on him to save our season. no team should be in the position where the loss of a true freshman point guard kills their season. playing point is arguably the toughest position to play and the idea that since he got hurt, we suck, is ludicrous. we sucked before he got hurt otherwise he wouldn't have made the difference that he supposedly made.
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this season the team has generally outplayed its talent level
what would our record be if we didn't "outplay our talent level"?
Overall, that was a very difficult read.
That is one of the worse talking points, especially when it is coupled with those shitty undertalented players getting "better" next year.
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losing stokes hurts as much as it does because oscar put us in the position where we needed to rely on him to save our season. no team should be in the position where the loss of a true freshman point guard kills their season. playing point is arguably the toughest position to play and the idea that since he got hurt, we suck, is ludicrous. we sucked before he got hurt otherwise he wouldn't have made the difference that he supposedly made.
This. We were just as terrible before Stokes was injured
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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The depth at PG didn't hurt, but yeah, I agree somewhat.
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The depth at PG didn't hurt, but yeah, I agree somewhat.
What depth?
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The depth at PG didn't hurt, but yeah, I agree somewhat.
What depth?
I'd rather have two average-above average freshman running the point (Brown & stokes), than having ervin and Rhoelder sniffing the court. But yes, we don't have a lot of able bodies.
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The key question for me is who from this current group develops into an All Big 12 player next year?
When I look back at our good teams (or any good team) they always have at least 1 guy that is 1st or 2nd team and 2-3 that are 2nd team or HM. Good players make good teams.
This year we will get a guy or two (Edwards and or DJamer) that might sniff HM, but that's it. Wade will probably make the all newcomer team, but I don't see him developing into all big 12 first or 2nd team next year. Or any of our other freshman. We might have a 2nd team guy and an HM guy, which will put us in the NIT and maybe on the bubble, but that seems to be next year's ceiling. If (when) oscar is back, my expectation will be NCAAs or bust.
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If tucks had the expectation that we would be worse than we are, what does that say for how oscar has already changed expectations? Absolutely mind blowing at how quickly parts of our fanbase and administration go back to an acceptance of losing after previous success.
Maybe it's just that the administration figured out a way to solve their sportsmanship "problem" - have the team play in an empty gym.
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I think Budke playing big minutes every game hurts far more than the loss of Stokes when you're looking at the season as a whole.
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The key question for me is who from this current group develops into an All Big 12 player next year?
When I look back at our good teams (or any good team) they always have at least 1 guy that is 1st or 2nd team and 2-3 that are 2nd team or HM. Good players make good teams.
This year we will get a guy or two (Edwards and or DJamer) that might sniff HM, but that's it. Wade will probably make the all newcomer team, but I don't see him developing into all big 12 first or 2nd team next year. Or any of our other freshman. We might have a 2nd team guy and an HM guy, which will put us in the NIT and maybe on the bubble, but that seems to be next year's ceiling. If (when) oscar is back, my expectation will be NCAAs or bust.
Here's the thing. What's the point of an "NCAA or bust" season in year six (and year 15 as a high major coach)? We already know all we need to know about him before that season. Like, if you get to an "NCAA or bust" point, the decision is effectively made. Why isn't this an NCAA or bust season? Why isn't the next season NCAA or bust?
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losing stokes hurts as much as it does because oscar put us in the position where we needed to rely on him to save our season. no team should be in the position where the loss of a true freshman point guard kills their season. playing point is arguably the toughest position to play and the idea that since he got hurt, we suck, is ludicrous. we sucked before he got hurt otherwise he wouldn't have made the difference that he supposedly made.
Agree. We were 2-7 in conference when Stokes went down.
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The key question for me is who from this current group develops into an All Big 12 player next year?
When I look back at our good teams (or any good team) they always have at least 1 guy that is 1st or 2nd team and 2-3 that are 2nd team or HM. Good players make good teams.
This year we will get a guy or two (Edwards and or DJamer) that might sniff HM, but that's it. Wade will probably make the all newcomer team, but I don't see him developing into all big 12 first or 2nd team next year. Or any of our other freshman. We might have a 2nd team guy and an HM guy, which will put us in the NIT and maybe on the bubble, but that seems to be next year's ceiling. If (when) oscar is back, my expectation will be NCAAs or bust.
Here's the thing. What's the point of an "NCAA or bust" season in year six (and year 15 as a high major coach)? We already know all we need to know about him before that season. Like, if you get to an "NCAA or bust" point, the decision is effectively made. Why isn't this an NCAA or bust season? Why isn't the next season NCAA or bust?
Well, it's not fair this year. He has bad players.
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The key question for me is who from this current group develops into an All Big 12 player next year?
When I look back at our good teams (or any good team) they always have at least 1 guy that is 1st or 2nd team and 2-3 that are 2nd team or HM. Good players make good teams.
This year we will get a guy or two (Edwards and or DJamer) that might sniff HM, but that's it. Wade will probably make the all newcomer team, but I don't see him developing into all big 12 first or 2nd team next year. Or any of our other freshman. We might have a 2nd team guy and an HM guy, which will put us in the NIT and maybe on the bubble, but that seems to be next year's ceiling. If (when) oscar is back, my expectation will be NCAAs or bust.
Here's the thing. What's the point of an "NCAA or bust" season in year six (and year 15 as a high major coach)? We already know all we need to know about him before that season. Like, if you get to an "NCAA or bust" point, the decision is effectively made. Why isn't this an NCAA or bust season? Why isn't the next season NCAA or bust?
This is/was my bust season and I busted.
I'm just saying that a) he'll probably be back and b) my expectations will be the NCAA tournament or he should be gone. And the year after that and the year after that.
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losing stokes hurts as much as it does because oscar put us in the position where we needed to rely on him to save our season. no team should be in the position where the loss of a true freshman point guard kills their season. playing point is arguably the toughest position to play and the idea that since he got hurt, we suck, is ludicrous. we sucked before he got hurt otherwise he wouldn't have made the difference that he supposedly made.
Agree. We were 2-7 in conference when Stokes went down.
Yeah but the schedulemakers weren't doing us any favors.
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I challenge oscar to achieve perfection (0-18 (but ideally w/10 OOC home wins to extend The Streak)).
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I challenge oscar to achieve perfection (0-18 (but ideally w/10 OOC home wins to extend The Streak)).
No one would be there to see the last 6-8 games. We wouldn't even know about it.
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I challenge oscar to achieve perfection (0-18 (but ideally w/10 OOC home wins to extend The Streak)).
No one would be there to see the last 6-8 games. We wouldn't even know about it.
Yeah we would. The Push for Perfection would be way more interesting than co-slumming with the other 4-ish-win wednesday'rs.
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He will certainly be back next year.
and the year after that
and the year after that.
No new data on oscar will make anything clearer. He is not failing to match expectations of KSU basketball, so why should he be fired?
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The key question for me is who from this current group develops into an All Big 12 player next year?
When I look back at our good teams (or any good team) they always have at least 1 guy that is 1st or 2nd team and 2-3 that are 2nd team or HM. Good players make good teams.
This year we will get a guy or two (Edwards and or DJamer) that might sniff HM, but that's it. Wade will probably make the all newcomer team, but I don't see him developing into all big 12 first or 2nd team next year. Or any of our other freshman. We might have a 2nd team guy and an HM guy, which will put us in the NIT and maybe on the bubble, but that seems to be next year's ceiling. If (when) oscar is back, my expectation will be NCAAs or bust.
Here's the thing. What's the point of an "NCAA or bust" season in year six (and year 15 as a high major coach)? We already know all we need to know about him before that season. Like, if you get to an "NCAA or bust" point, the decision is effectively made. Why isn't this an NCAA or bust season? Why isn't the next season NCAA or bust?
This is/was my bust season and I busted.
I'm just saying that a) he'll probably be back and b) my expectations will be the NCAA tournament or he should be gone. And the year after that and the year after that.
That makes sense. You're just continually let down. :frown:
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He will certainly be back next year.
and the year after that
and the year after that.
No new data on oscar will make anything clearer. He is not failing to match expectations of KSU basketball, so why should he be fired?
Yes, I am confusing BBB's expectations with those of our administration. He's doing what they want him to do.
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That makes sense. You're just continually let down. :frown:
:frown:
He will certainly be back next year.
and the year after that
and the year after that.
No new data on oscar will make anything clearer. He is not failing to match expectations of KSU basketball, so why should he be fired?
Yes, I am confusing BBB's expectations with those of our administration. He's doing what they want him to do.
:frown: :frown:
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The previous posts are why only Brad can save us. We need a groundswell of "we have to hire Brad now before XSU or UoX does" to save us from oscar scheduling himself into another extension.
Somebody on this board has to know somebody in the Claws camp, we need more w2Iowa grumblings that can only be fixed by bringing a true cat from central kansas home.
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If he makes it to the NCAA next year and loses in the first round again he should be fired. NCAA+Win a game or Bust.
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What is it with this "mulligan because he reset the roster" argument? Westicles and DJamer have been in the program with significant playing time for 3 years. Hurt and Edwards are seniors who have gotten significant playing time. If those returnees were Pullen, Walker, Southwell, and Stewart would oscar get a mulligan season 'cause he ran off Beasley? This team is crap. It is crap that oscar created and plays with and it will be crap next year.
And player development - Vulture is every bit a crappy player as he was when he started...
Season Averages
SEASON TEAM MIN FGM-FGA FG% 3PM-3PA 3P% FTM-FTA FT% REB AST BLK STL PF TO PTS
2015-16 KSU 2.8 0.1-0.2 .333 0.0-0.0 .000 0.0-0.1 .000 0.4 0.2 0.1 0.1 1.1 0.1 0.1
2014-15 KSU 3.8 0.1-0.3 .200 0.0-0.2 .000 0.0-0.1 .000 0.4 0.3 0.1 0.2 0.8 0.2 0.1
2013-14 KSU 1.7 0.1-0.2 .333 0.0-0.1 .000 0.0-0.0 .000 0.2 0.1 0.0 0.1 0.1 0.1 0.1
All you can say for him is he is consistent! 0.1 ppg through his entire career!
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I like Vulture in that I think it's interesting we have a scholarship player on the roster strictly for fouling in end of game situations.
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I think it's only fair that oscar should get the chance to win with a senior Claws.
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I think it's only fair that oscar should get the chance to win with a senior Claws.
it goes beyond Claws. oscar deserves a team that is willing to play hard for him with a schedule that was fairly put together and with referees that call a fair game. until those things happen, it's really not fair to judge him, nor is it fair to put the losses on his shoulders. sorry but thems facts.
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We're an 8 win conference team next year, at best. Just enough to get oscar back.
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We're an 8 win conference team next year, at best. Just enough to get oscar back.
If we only win 8 conference games next year, I think (and hope) he is gone.
But I think we will win 10 or 11.
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But I think we will win 10 or 11.
What do you base this off of and why do you think this?
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losing stokes hurts as much as it does because oscar put us in the position where we needed to rely on him to save our season. no team should be in the position where the loss of a true freshman point guard kills their season. playing point is arguably the toughest position to play and the idea that since he got hurt, we suck, is ludicrous. we sucked before he got hurt otherwise he wouldn't have made the difference that he supposedly made.
This. We were just as terrible before Stokes was injured
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No, I don't think that is true. But, in any event, there is no doubt that we would have more conference wins at this point if Stokes had played the entire year.
I agree with the comment above that you are in a bad spot if you are relying upon a freshman point guard. That said, I was very impressed with Stokes this year. I know this will get me in trouble on this board, but I think Stokes was better as a freshman than Angel. And Angel has turned out to be a great player.
Stokes/Brown/Wade are a really good nucleus, assuming they don't quit on Weber and assuming Wade quits being a wussy.
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But I think we will win 10 or 11.
What do you base this off of and why do you think this?
Good question. And, which teams do you think we will beat?
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But I think we will win 10 or 11.
What do you base this off of and why do you think this?
DJamer, Wes, Brown, Stokes, and Wade are a damn good starting five in my opinion. Some of the close games we lost this year will go our way, simply because our young guys will be more experienced. (Notice how the end of the UT game involved one true freshman passing to another). Relying upon true freshman sucks, but the upside is that they get valuable experience through trial be fire. Plus, OU, ISU, and BU will be down next year, and the overall league won't be nearly as tough.
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I know this will get me in trouble on this board, but I think Stokes was better as a freshman than Angel. And Angel has turned out to be a great player.
Yes, it will get you in trouble, because it is just flat our wrong by any measurable standard.
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2FgoEMAW.com%2Fblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F02%2FAngel-Kamau.png&hash=15e19964bc66320b84cccd2057fe23cda950e547)
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Some people's view on how KSU is going to use experience to pull ahead of the competition in the years to come:
(https://media.giphy.com/media/Q18yWRHG4dx2E/giphy.gif)
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I know this will get me in trouble on this board, but I think Stokes was better as a freshman than Angel. And Angel has turned out to be a great player.
Yes, it will get you in trouble, because it is just flat our wrong by any measurable standard.
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2FgoEMAW.com%2Fblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F02%2FAngel-Kamau.png&hash=15e19964bc66320b84cccd2057fe23cda950e547)
But what about free throw %?! :curse:
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But I think we will win 10 or 11.
What do you base this off of and why do you think this?
Good question. And, which teams do you think we will beat?
Impossible to predict. I will add this, though. We are 4-11 in conference this year. We have lost three overtime games, a one-point game to UT, and a three point game to UT. Even this year, if we go 2-3 in those games, we are sitting at 6-9 in conference right now, with at least one more win likely.
Now, I'm not saying it was bad luck that we lost all those games. Young teams tend to lose those games, particularly when they are relying so heavily on a freshman point. But I expect us to win our fair share of those games next year.
DJamer has blossomed into a legit post player in the last two weeks. And I expect big improvements from our freshman. We will be a better team overall next year, and a team that has the experience to at least break even on games that are one-possession games with four minutes left.
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OU, ISU, and BU will be down next year, and the overall league won't be nearly as tough.
Down for any of those schools will still be really good. If we go 3-3 against those 3 it would be a great year. All bring in at least 1 Top 100 recruit and have young talent just as good, if not better, than ours. They just don't have to rely on it as much as we do because they already have good players.
I'm surprised more of our fans don't understand this.
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I know this will get me in trouble on this board, but I think Stokes was better as a freshman than Angel. And Angel has turned out to be a great player.
Yes, it will get you in trouble, because it is just flat our wrong by any measurable standard.
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2FgoEMAW.com%2Fblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F02%2FAngel-Kamau.png&hash=15e19964bc66320b84cccd2057fe23cda950e547)
But what about free throw %?! :curse:
83%, 2nd on the team behind Will, seems pretty good. :dunno:
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I know this will get me in trouble on this board, but I think Stokes was better as a freshman than Angel. And Angel has turned out to be a great player.
Yes, it will get you in trouble, because it is just flat our wrong by any measurable standard.
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2FgoEMAW.com%2Fblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F02%2FAngel-Kamau.png&hash=15e19964bc66320b84cccd2057fe23cda950e547)
The only stat that Angel is superior to Stokes is number of assists. No doubt, Angel was good at driving and dishing, even as a freshman. But Stokes does other things better than Angel that don't necessary show up in stat sheet. Breaking/handling full court pressure is one thing that comes immediately to mind. Angel would've had 7/8 turnovers if we asked him to handle the ball like Stokes did against West Virginia in Manhattan. Stokes is much quicker than Angel and a better ball handler in open court breaking pressure. Along the same lines, Stokes has a much quick shot than Angel. If the shot clock is winding down, Stokes has the ability to create space and rise and shoot; Angel never really had that.
They are close. But that should mean that Stokes has the potential to be really good in a couple of years, right?
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cDubya is probably the only non-cat who knows who Deathbite (or is he Dogbite?) is.
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Stokes will be a fine player and I was pleasantly surprised by his abilities this year.
The rest of your analysis I don't agree with at all. Angel's assist rate is over twice that of Stokes AND he had a better assist to TO ratio. He scored at a much higher rate and his steal rate is much higher. He got to the FT line more and shot better from there. The only thing Stokes has a slight edge on is defensive rebounding and 2PT%.
I mean, its like you didn't even really look at the stats I posted.
There is absolutely no basis for the "quicker" or "breaking down pressure" or "rise and shoot" comments. None. Its only a perception and hope that Stokes is better because there is absolutely nothing to back that up.
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I know this will get me in trouble on this board, but I think Stokes was better as a freshman than Angel. And Angel has turned out to be a great player.
Yes, it will get you in trouble, because it is just flat our wrong by any measurable standard.
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But what about free throw %?! :curse:
83%, 2nd on the team behind Will, seems pretty good. :dunno:
Welp!
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Steffy, you could have made a somewhat reasonable claim by saying Angel was surrounded by superior, experienced talent, because he was. That has some merit to me.
But that still doesn't quite explain Angel having the best assist rate for any K-State player since 2002. Nor does it explain why Angel has a scoring rate 20% better than Stokes. Granted, Angel and his turnovers is more of a concern because he did play on a much better team.
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angel just didn't pass steffy's eye test
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angel just didn't pass steffy's eye test
Eye test is definitely part of it. I'm a numbers person generally, but they don't tell the entire story, particularly in basketball. There is no question that Stokes is quicker with the ball in open court and against pressure. This means that he was asked to handle the ball more often than Angel was when facing pressure. (If I recall Frank often protected Angel by having Southwell bring ball up against press.). That distinction isn't going to show up on a stat sheet (if anything, it hurts Stokes because only negative stats can happen 60 feet from the basket.). But it is a real asset to have a point guard who can do that.
The other stats besides assists are in the same ball park. Angel more steals, better free throws, Stokes better rebounding and fewer turnovers. But I don't think stats tell the entire story.
I'm guessing if you give 100 D1 coaches the oppurtunity to pick freshman Angel or freshman Stokes, 70 pick Stokes.
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:lol:
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WHERE IS THE 70% COACHES PICK STAT IN YOUR FANCY SPREAD SHEET??
HUH???
BETTER GET YOUR STATS STRAIGHT!!
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good lord.
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people make fun of trump voters, but at least they're backing a winner.
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Steffy, you could have made a somewhat reasonable claim by saying Angel was surrounded by superior, experienced talent, because he was. That has some merit to me.
But that still doesn't quite explain Angel having the best assist rate for any K-State player since 2002. Nor does it explain why Angel has a scoring rate 20% better than Stokes. Granted, Angel and his turnovers is more of a concern because he did play on a much better team.
Yes, that is part of the difficulty in relying too much on stats. Angel picked up a lot of assists by passing to Southwell, McGruder, and Spradling for jumpers. Our team this year couldn't throw it in the ocean.
That said, there is no doubt Angel was a better passer; he had great court vision. But you should acknowledge that you would hold your breath when Angel had to bring the ball up against heavy pressure. Frank did, too.
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people make fun of trump voters, but at least they're backing a winner.
It's kind of mumped up that we at times lament KSU's admission standards or lack thereof, while we let absolutely anybody post here.
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people make fun of trump voters, but at least they're backing a winner.
:love:
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Looks to me like stokes won everything but the stat sheet
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I know this will get me in trouble on this board, but I think Stokes was better as a freshman than Angel. And Angel has turned out to be a great player.
Yes, it will get you in trouble, because it is just flat our wrong by any measurable standard.
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Can you show Angel's freshman year stats? Those are from his sophomore season.
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I know this will get me in trouble on this board, but I think Stokes was better as a freshman than Angel. And Angel has turned out to be a great player.
Yes, it will get you in trouble, because it is just flat our wrong by any measurable standard.
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2FgoEMAW.com%2Fblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F02%2FAngel-Kamau.png&hash=15e19964bc66320b84cccd2057fe23cda950e547)
The only stat that Angel is superior to Stokes is number of assists. No doubt, Angel was good at driving and dishing, even as a freshman. But Stokes does other things better than Angel that don't necessary show up in stat sheet. Breaking/handling full court pressure is one thing that comes immediately to mind. Angel would've had 7/8 turnovers if we asked him to handle the ball like Stokes did against West Virginia in Manhattan. Stokes is much quicker than Angel and a better ball handler in open court breaking pressure. Along the same lines, Stokes has a much quick shot than Angel. If the shot clock is winding down, Stokes has the ability to create space and rise and shoot; Angel never really had that.
They are close. But that should mean that Stokes has the potential to be really good in a couple of years, right?
Yep. The only one. Not that important for PGs though. Potato Potahto.
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Steffy, you could have made a somewhat reasonable claim by saying Angel was surrounded by superior, experienced talent, because he was. That has some merit to me.
But that still doesn't quite explain Angel having the best assist rate for any K-State player since 2002. Nor does it explain why Angel has a scoring rate 20% better than Stokes. Granted, Angel and his turnovers is more of a concern because he did play on a much better team.
Yes, that is part of the difficulty in relying too much on stats. Angel picked up a lot of assists by passing to Southwell, McGruder, and Spradling for jumpers. Our team this year couldn't throw it in the ocean.
That said, there is no doubt Angel was a better passer; he had great court vision. But you should acknowledge that you would hold your breath when Angel had to bring the ball up against heavy pressure. Frank did, too.
yeah if only Stokes had a Spradling to dish the rock to, he'd probably be the all-time assists leader by now
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Can you show Angel's freshman year stats? Those are from his sophomore season.
Oh man. This is a real "get your stats straight!" moment from me. :blindfold:
I will admit, Steffy's case is much stronger when comparing the correct years. My apologies to Steffy, I'm not so convinced after looking at the correct stats.
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Can you show Angel's freshman year stats? Those are from his sophomore season.
Oh man. This is a real "get your stats straight!" moment from me. :blindfold:
I will admit, Steffy's case is much stronger when comparing the correct years. My apologies to Steffy, I'm not so convinced after looking at the correct stats.
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It's all good, _BBB. :cheers:
Yeah, those stats are very close. In a blind test I'd probably take Kamau. More efficient shooter and better A:TO.
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Kamau needs to penetrate more. I think he has shown he can do it but not frequently enough that he is comfortable doing it. Hopefully an offseason in the weight room will help quite a bit.
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If Kamau is on track to break the assist record after next year then I will buy everyone on this board a drink, if not, then y'all need to get Angel's name out of your mouth when talking about Stokes. Angel was on track to be the most productive point guard ever in K-State history. Kamau has shown basically no ability to get into the lane and he rarely makes anything happen on the rare occasion that he finds himself there. Stokes is just like this team, low ceiling, high floor.
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KAM played in the early scrub games and missed the big 12 gauntlet. Ang played all year.
(I don't know this for fact, but maybe!)
Gonna win 'em all! (using Tapatalk)
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yeah, comparing Kamau to Angel is borderline steffy
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If Kamau is on track to break the assist record after next year then I will buy everyone on this board a drink, if not, then y'all need to get Angel's name out of your mouth when talking about Stokes. Angel was on track to be the most productive point guard ever in K-State history. Kamau has shown basically no ability to get into the lane and he rarely makes anything happen on the rare occasion that he finds himself there. Stokes is just like this team, low ceiling, high floor.
I don't think you have to say that about Stokes. I think he can be good/very good. Angel was just a special player, and it's probably not fair to try and compare Stokes to Angel.
We also have the benefit of seeing how Angel's full career has progressed, and we got, what? 16-18 games of Stokes?
I thought Stokes' game against UNC showed what his ceiling can look like. That's not fair to measure him against and assume that level of consistency, but it was nice to see him go off against a team that good. For two reasons: One, he has the confidence to go into a game like that with aggressiveness, and two, he actually executed.
Stokes is a positive part of this program right now. I don't think it's fair to say he has a low ceiling, but it's not fair to say he'll be better than Angel, either.
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Well now there's the obvious question - Nigel or Stokes?
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Well said, Panj!
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If Kamau is on track to break the assist record after next year then I will buy everyone on this board a drink, if not, then y'all need to get Angel's name out of your mouth when talking about Stokes. Angel was on track to be the most productive point guard ever in K-State history. Kamau has shown basically no ability to get into the lane and he rarely makes anything happen on the rare occasion that he finds himself there. Stokes is just like this team, low ceiling, high floor.
I don't think you have to say that about Stokes. I think he can be good/very good. Angel was just a special player, and it's probably not fair to try and compare Stokes to Angel.
We also have the benefit of seeing how Angel's full career has progressed, and we got, what? 16-18 games of Stokes?
I thought Stokes' game against UNC showed what his ceiling can look like. That's not fair to measure him against and assume that level of consistency, but it was nice to see him go off against a team that good. For two reasons: One, he has the confidence to go into a game like that with aggressiveness, and two, he actually executed.
Stokes is a positive part of this program right now. I don't think it's fair to say he has a low ceiling, but it's not fair to say he'll be better than Angel, either.
If he's forced to play point guard, then his ceiling will be low...he's not a point guard. He's barely a combo guard. If he could play shooting guard, which would be his natural position, then no telling what his ceiling would be, because we haven't seen him there.
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Well now there's the obvious question - Nigel or Stokes?
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I had forgotten how much worse Angel was as a freshman than he was as a sophomore.
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If he's forced to play point guard, then his ceiling will be low...he's not a point guard. He's barely a combo guard. If he could play shooting guard, which would be his natural position, then no telling what his ceiling would be, because we haven't seen him there.
Meh. Frank won with combos, it can be done.
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If he's forced to play point guard, then his ceiling will be low...he's not a point guard. He's barely a combo guard. If he could play shooting guard, which would be his natural position, then no telling what his ceiling would be, because we haven't seen him there.
Meh. Frank won with combos, it can be done.
I think Frank could do it, but oscar sure can't, not with his current offense. Nigel had significantly better A & TO numbers (would have been even better had Stokes' stats been subjected to Big XII play). We're going to war with a worse Nigel Johnson at point, and that is somehow comforting?
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If Kamau is on track to break the assist record after next year then I will buy everyone on this board a drink, if not, then y'all need to get Angel's name out of your mouth when talking about Stokes. Angel was on track to be the most productive point guard ever in K-State history. Kamau has shown basically no ability to get into the lane and he rarely makes anything happen on the rare occasion that he finds himself there. Stokes is just like this team, low ceiling, high floor.
I don't think you have to say that about Stokes. I think he can be good/very good. Angel was just a special player, and it's probably not fair to try and compare Stokes to Angel.
We also have the benefit of seeing how Angel's full career has progressed, and we got, what? 16-18 games of Stokes?
I thought Stokes' game against UNC showed what his ceiling can look like. That's not fair to measure him against and assume that level of consistency, but it was nice to see him go off against a team that good. For two reasons: One, he has the confidence to go into a game like that with aggressiveness, and two, he actually executed.
Stokes is a positive part of this program right now. I don't think it's fair to say he has a low ceiling, but it's not fair to say he'll be better than Angel, either.
If he's forced to play point guard, then his ceiling will be low...he's not a point guard. He's barely a combo guard. If he could play shooting guard, which would be his natural position, then no telling what his ceiling would be, because we haven't seen him there.
But do you really need a true point guard in this offense? I mean, really?
It seems like we want to throw 2-3 combo guards on the floor at the same time to handle getting it up the floor. If you have some subset of them that can penetrate, do you need a traditional PG?
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Well now there's the obvious question - Nigel or Stokes?
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I'd forgotten Nigel played 2 years here and I've forgotten who the other pg was during that time.
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If he's forced to play point guard, then his ceiling will be low...he's not a point guard. He's barely a combo guard. If he could play shooting guard, which would be his natural position, then no telling what his ceiling would be, because we haven't seen him there.
Meh. Frank won with combos, it can be done.
I think Frank could do it, but oscar sure can't, not with his current offense. Nigel had significantly better A & TO numbers (would have been even better had Stokes' stats been subjected to Big XII play). We're going to war with a worse Nigel Johnson at point, and that is somehow comforting?
My layman's observation, backed up by BBB's stats and consistent talking about about 3pt%, is that we're going to live and die by the three. If we have combos that can shoot, we're probably fine. If we have combos that can't shoot, we'll struggle.
What we have right now is a streaky combo (Brown), a slashing combo (Edwards), and a guy that should be playing the 4 (Westicles) as our perimeter players.
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If he's forced to play point guard, then his ceiling will be low...he's not a point guard. He's barely a combo guard. If he could play shooting guard, which would be his natural position, then no telling what his ceiling would be, because we haven't seen him there.
Meh. Frank won with combos, it can be done.
I think Frank could do it, but oscar sure can't, not with his current offense. Nigel had significantly better A & TO numbers (would have been even better had Stokes' stats been subjected to Big XII play). We're going to war with a worse Nigel Johnson at point, and that is somehow comforting?
My layman's observation, backed up by BBB's stats and consistent talking about about 3pt%, is that we're going to live and die by the three. If we have combos that can shoot, we're probably fine. If we have combos that can't shoot, we'll struggle.
What we have right now is a streaky combo (Brown), a slashing combo (Edwards), and a guy that should be playing the 4 (Westicles) as our perimeter players.
If you look at those stats, and Stokes is right there with Nigel, and you're going to tell me that's enough to get it done at pg? A guy that Jevon Thomas started over for the majority of his career. And we're talking about someone that is even less adept at playing pg, that's who we're betting on? Count me out, homies.
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Holy crap, I forgot about my guy Jevon.
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If someone wants to make an argument that Stokes deserves as much playing time as Brown at SG, then I'd listen. Especially with Stokes' superior ball handling. Get him into the game early, and see what side of streaky he's on that night and make your decision from there. This team needs a point guard though, or at least a combo guard that can penetrate and kick. We don't have that right now, nothing actually close to that really. That's the difference between Frank's combo guards and our guys. His dudes could get into the lane basically at will. There is nobody on our team that can get into the lane at will, guess a argument could be made for Edwards, but he's not here going forward.
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My layman's observation, backed up by BBB's stats and consistent talking about about 3pt%, is that we're going to live and die by the three. If we have combos that can shoot, we're probably fine. If we have combos that can't shoot, we'll struggle.
What we have right now is a streaky combo (Brown), a slashing combo (Edwards), and a guy that should be playing the 4 (Westicles) as our perimeter players.
Its absolutely correct. I made the point earlier in the year that the single stat that correlates most to the success/failure of oscar's teams is 3PT%. If he has a team that shoots 35% or better from 3, they go dancing. If his team shoots worse than that, they don't, with one exception (14 K-State).
No other stat (advanced, shooting, etc.) correlates more to success/failure than this one for oscar.
We're going to war with a worse Nigel Johnson at point, and that is somehow comforting?
To be fair with the comparison it should be noted that Nigel didn't really play point much, he was off the ball most of the time with Jevon at the point.
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Need to add usage, BBB. It's important context, but Stokes definitely appears better than I realized he was.
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We don't have that right now, nothing actually close to that really. That's the difference between Frank's combo guards and our guys. His dudes could get into the lane basically at will. There is nobody on our team that can get into the lane at will, guess a argument could be made for Edwards, but he's not here going forward.
This is true, especially now. Its pretty much Westicles playing a swing-point with a little bit of Ervin mixed in.
We were much better with Stokes at PG though, as our increased TO% since he went out would indicate.
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My layman's observation, backed up by BBB's stats and consistent talking about about 3pt%, is that we're going to live and die by the three. If we have combos that can shoot, we're probably fine. If we have combos that can't shoot, we'll struggle.
What we have right now is a streaky combo (Brown), a slashing combo (Edwards), and a guy that should be playing the 4 (Westicles) as our perimeter players.
Its absolutely correct. I made the point earlier in the year that the single stat that correlates most to the success/failure of oscar's teams is 3PT%. If he has a team that shoots 35% or better from 3, they go dancing. If his team shoots worse than that, they don't, with one exception (14 K-State).
No other stat (advanced, shooting, etc.) correlates more to success/failure than this one for oscar.
We're going to war with a worse Nigel Johnson at point, and that is somehow comforting?
To be fair with the comparison it should be noted that Nigel didn't really play point much, he was off the ball most of the time with Jevon at the point.
Okay, so 3 point percentage is the litmus test. Wouldn't create better opportunities for Stokes to play off the ball then, and to have a lead guard that could make the defense collapse so our shooters were actually, ya know, open? Big part of our problems this year is no open shooters, and I think it's obvious at this point that oscar would rather take responsibility for a loss than screen for a shooter.
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Need to add usage, BBB. It's important context, but Stokes definitely appears better than I realized he was.
True. I would just have to steal that from kenpom, my charts are easy to compile with copy/paste of the season individual stats, but I don't have the formulas in place for usage based stuff, so its not easy to add.
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Okay, so 3 point percentage is the litmus test. Wouldn't create better opportunities for Stokes to play off the ball then, and to have a lead guard that could make the defense collapse so our shooters were actually, ya know, open? Big part of our problems this year is no open shooters, and I think it's obvious at this point that oscar would rather take responsibility for a loss than screen for a shooter.
Agree completely.
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The Flush gets into the lane and gets called for charging more than any player I've ever seen.
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The Flush gets into the lane and gets called for charging more than any player I've ever seen.
Edwards is pretty good at that too.
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The Flush gets into the lane and gets called for charging more than any player I've ever seen.
Which I feel like makes him gunshy about going into the lane. Sad, because if anybody on this team has the ability to be a good penetrator, it's definitely him.
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Brown doesn't lay off or try to stop when someone gets in front of him. He just heads in full steam and lets the chips fall where they may. I think sometimes it's the right choice if he has any chance of drawing the foul or no chance of holding up enough. Other times its just stupid.
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Brown should consider dishing the ball to Dean when he penetrates.
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Brown attacks to score though, he's got less of a PG mentality than Stokes.
Not a bad thing though.
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Jake was really good at attacking the rim under control and drawing fouls by his senior year iirc. Not saying we have another Jake anywhere, but having someone that could do this would be nice.
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I didn't want to say anything, but Jake and Kamau's freshman per game stats are very similar.
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Steffy's Eye Test should be added to all charts form her on out.
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The bottom line is no one on this team can create offense outside of the context of oscar's offense. How that is done - creating shots for themselves, creating shots for others, having an ability to take deep shots, etc. is irrelevant.
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Our guard play is such that I pine for the days of Blake Young
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Anyone who thinks that it's going to get better under Weber, should immediately be given a frontal lobotomy and institutionalized for the rest of their lives.
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the thing is, tons of freshmen pgs have similar stats (in terms of quality, the style of the stats has more information). some develop into v good guards, some don't. the stats alone don't mean much. the eye test actually is more meaningful. 2-7 also has some relevant information.
i can't recall a single thing that stokes did all year, so i don't have much of an opinion on him, beyond 2-7.
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the thing is, tons of freshmen pgs have similar stats (in terms of quality, the style of the stats has more information). some develop into v good guards, some don't. the stats alone don't mean much. the eye test actually is more meaningful. 2-7 also has some relevant information.
i can't recall a single thing that stokes did all year, so i don't have much of an opinion on him, beyond 2-7.
had a really good game against unc and someone else
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the thing is, tons of freshmen pgs have similar stats (in terms of quality, the style of the stats has more information). some develop into v good guards, some don't. the stats alone don't mean much. the eye test actually is more meaningful. 2-7 also has some relevant information.
i can't recall a single thing that stokes did all year, so i don't have much of an opinion on him, beyond 2-7.
had a really good game against unc and someone else
Really good game against Tech - Was a rough early in the season and then again early in conference play. Both times I think he was forcing some 3s instead of getting set shots. At this point, he can't really create his own three.
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from the stats, he looks like a volume shooter with little ability to penetrate. if he improves his 3% a little, he could be a valuable spradling-type pg (but one that shoots more). presumably his to rate will go down and his assist rate will go up, but it doesn't look like he's a particularly good passer.
the stats don't say much of anything about his defense.
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shot a higher % of 2s to 3s in conference than out without his 2% dropping, so that would be encouraging.
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On eye test (and back to the "who would college coaches choose?" question): Do you think D1 coaches would choose Stokes or Angel by looking solely at the stats? Of course not. They would want to watch them play. From this, I think it is fair to say that stats aren't everything in basketball; they are much less helpful (although still important, of course) than they are in, say, baseball. Baseball can be pretty much reduced to numbers. Basketball can't. (This doesn't mean that I am any good at the eye test, of course.)
On Stokes: I disagree with those of you saying he is not a point guard. He definitely is a point guard. (Brown is definitely a two.)
On Stokes: I do agree with you that he did not get into the lane much this year. My eye test says he has that ability. Even so, I don't think he will ever be as good of a dish-er as Angel was.
Stokes is light years better than Jevon or Nigel were as freshman. The best comparable is Angel. Both of them are a little below Pullen.
I also agree with the poster that says much of this just depends on how they develop. But I think Stokes has a very high ceiling (higher than Angel).
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Can you show Angel's freshman year stats? Those are from his sophomore season.
Oh man. This is a real "get your stats straight!" moment from me. :blindfold:
I will admit, Steffy's case is much stronger when comparing the correct years. My apologies to Steffy, I'm not so convinced after looking at the correct stats.
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2FgoEMAW.com%2Fblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F02%2FAngel-Kamau1.png&hash=fd8691805a71eefd7d6d7f98dfcaa9c5f103ccb9)
It's all good. Yesterday I got excited because I thought the batcats had split a series with UC Irvine. I was considerably less excited when somebody told me it was UC Riverside.
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you're insane if you don't think art had an obviously high ceiling as a freshman. he's actually been a bit of a disappointment in terms of development. it was reasonable to project as a freshman that his 3% would be significantly higher than it has been (some of that, i think, is how miami uses him, but that's not a data-based argument).
unless stokes has the ability to go by his man at will maintaining balance and court vision as well as incredible defensive instincts (balance, again), he's not comparable to art.
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No one is eye test picking Stokes over this guy: (https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcjonline.com%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fimagecache%2Fsuperphoto%2F10894711.jpg&hash=aae21ddb7e29a523f942a663dc1a33464d8f525b)
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I just read 8mp's post and walked over to my still-unpacked suitcase and grabbed the PR flag and started waving it around.
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you're insane if you don't think art had an obviously high ceiling as a freshman. he's actually been a bit of a disappointment in terms of development. it was reasonable to project as a freshman that his 3% would be significantly higher than it has been (some of that, i think, is how miami uses him, but that's not a data-based argument).
unless stokes has the ability to go by his man at will maintaining balance and court vision as well as incredible defensive instincts (balance, again), he's not comparable to art.
I thought Art had a high ceiling as a freshman. I think Stokes has higher.
I think people forget that Angel was actually pretty bad in many games as a freshman. If I recall, he really started coming in to his own about this time during his freshman year. I seem to remember a late road win at MU where I was like "yeah, this guy is going to be really damn good." (A sweet split of a double on a pick and roll, followed by a perfect alley-oop to JO, sticks in my mind.)
But, his shot was slow, his feet were slow on defense (compensated for, though, by his quick hands and good instincts), and he was shaky dribbling against heavy pressure/good defenders.
But, we don't need to turn this into an anti-Art thread, because that isn't my point. Playing point as a true freshman is damn hard; both Art and Stokes showed incredible promise in doing it.
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What a worthless topic!
Comparing/contrasting Weber/Wooly/Tan Tom would be FAR more compelling.
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So Kamau (his nams is so fun to say. Why shorten it?) could be Nigel, Angel, or Jake-esque.
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So Kamau (his nams is so fun to say. Why shorten it?) could be Nigel, Angel, or Jake-esque.
Kamau's FTr is abysmal but it isn't his fault that he isn't allowed to attack. Also a likely reason for the low turnover number.
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I'll take my body bag size large please.
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Jake was really good at attacking the rim under control and drawing fouls by his senior year iirc. Not saying we have another Jake anywhere, but having someone that could do this would be nice.
He was pretty good at it his whole career iirc.
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Jake was really good at attacking the rim under control and drawing fouls by his senior year iirc. Not saying we have another Jake anywhere, but having someone that could do this would be nice.
He was pretty good at it his whole career iirc.
no he wasn't, he had to learn. early on he'd drive and kick and frank would scream at him and bench him.
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@trim.
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcjonline.com%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fimagecache%2Fsuperphoto%2F10938926.jpg&hash=f3fd549efb7d8a32679b51e8a4b26e97dcbf6603)
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww3.pictures.zimbio.com%2Fgi%2FKansas%2BState%2Bv%2BMissouri%2BKDhYuwoO2T5l.jpg&hash=7cf33e6368c9b5c5d958ac185321efae6e606b2f)
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Trim is waiving the Puerto Rican flag and I am waiving the Jamaican Flag.
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You all have to look for #23 on Miami. He seems to be Angel's BFF and is basically a 33-year-old 7-foot Dom. Initial credit for recognizing this goes to Cassidy but anyone remotely familiar with SLAMMIN SUTTON and possessing eyes would nail it too.
Their moments aren't as adorable as Angel's from his KSU stint, but they try.
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(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.fansided.com%2Fwp-content%2Fblogs.dir%2F200%2Ffiles%2F2015%2F12%2Fncaa-basketball-miami-nebraska1-850x560.jpg&hash=65b6bc724420eab5774050158036d3b84db4c6fd)
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I was seeing a 7' Tamba Hali the other night watching Angel & the U
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I agree on Art love. But imagine if Stokes develops a 15 ft tear drop runner. Oh man.
Gonna win 'em all! (using Tapatalk)
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I agree on Art love. But imagine if Stokes develops a 15 ft tear drop runner. Oh man.
Gonna win 'em all! (using Tapatalk)
He better get a tat sleeve.
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Personally, give me Angel, for most of the reasons cited by sys.
I think more importantly, as we try to project Kamau, do keep in mind that Lord oscar is in charge of said development. I'm not hopeful. I am not convinced that oscar's players really respect him enough to be driven in the way they need to develop over a 4 year career. Hope I'm wrong, just my two cents.
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Whenever someone mentions Jake's ability to penetrate, there are several people on this board who will say, "Yeah, but he passed it a lot his freshman year and Frank yelled at him on the bench. It was a progression for him, he didn't get good at it until later in his career." I guess I'm not understanding the argument there. Jake was still getting to the bucket (what's being asserted), he was just passing the ball (nobody is saying he didn't), he still possessed the ability to get by his guy on the reg (the point of the comparison). Breaking down the defense and passing the ball would still create many more oppys than playing ring-around-the-rosie on the perimeter like we currently do. What a certain player does at the rim is pretty rough ridin' immaterial if nobody on our team can get there.
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Holy crap! http://www.heartlandcollegesports.com/kansas-state-fans-one-of-problems/
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Our guard play is such that I pine for the days of Blake Young
:love:
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I remember when Foster was going to break the scoring record.
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I remember when Foster was going to break the scoring record.
He was 'zacker! He got randolphed!
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Let's add up his point total when he's done at Creighton. Different league, ya, but they still have some good teams in that league.
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Holy crap! http://www.heartlandcollegesports.com/kansas-state-fans-one-of-problems/
I knew it would come to this
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:dunno:
I am not convinced that oscar's players really respect him enough to be driven in the way they need to develop over a 4 year career. Hope I'm wrong, just my two cents.
Yep, this is a concern for me, too.
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wacky what were you even doing on that website to begin with
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"Let's skip all the nonsense about where this team is going..."
Stopped reading right there. No point in continuing an article about a sports team after setting it up with that.
Never heard of that guy or his blog.
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wacky what were you even doing on that website to begin with
It popped up on FB. I had to take a look.
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wacky what were you even doing on that website to begin with
It popped up on FB. I had to take a look.
Is "Jason Sager" a pen name linked to the athl dept?
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No, I recognize him from college. Ironically, when I was stranded in Manhattan a few years ago at winters/scottwildcat's place, he was the one who worked on my car at the auto shop. :Wha:
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No, I recognize him from college. Ironically, when I was stranded in Manhattan a few years ago at winters/scottwildcat's place, he was the one who worked on my car at the auto shop. :Wha:
You guys go the same seminars?
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No, I recognize him from college. Ironically, when I was stranded in Manhattan a few years ago at winters/scottwildcat's place, he was the one who worked on my car at the auto shop. :Wha:
You guys go the same seminars?
Speak english, chings, but yes, in college, he went with us to a sports broadcasting seminar at Kauffman stadium. Where do IT guys go, to sit in a corner, and talk to themselves?
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No, I recognize him from college. Ironically, when I was stranded in Manhattan a few years ago at winters/scottwildcat's place, he was the one who worked on my car at the auto shop. :Wha:
You guys go the same seminars?
Speak english, chings, but yes, in college, he went with us to a sports broadcasting seminar at Kauffman stadium. Where do IT guys go, to sit in a corner, and talk to no one?
This may surprise you, but I am not a IT guy (not that there's anything wrong with that).
What was the seminar about?
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So where do you go to be socially awkward then? It was about sports broadcasting. I met George B, all the pbp guys for K-state, KU, MU, Chiefs, Royals, etc. The glass family, etc. It was a real crap show, chings.
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So where do you go to be socially awkward then? It was about sports broadcasting. I met George B, all the pbp guys for K-state, KU, MU, Chiefs, Royals, etc. The glass family, etc. It was a real crap show, chings.
I don't think I'm generally socially awkward, but then again I suppose people who are never know it right?
Sounds like a useful seminar, any useful tips you could share with us?
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Yeah, make sure to announce the score every 2 minutes. A lot of broadcasters get too caught up into the game and forget about the score. Nobody listening gives a eff about you. Hope that helps.
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Bob Davis said I had high energy on my broadcasts and to save some of the excitement for the end of the broadcast. Yeah, he really said that. Of all the broadcasters in the world to say that, it was him.
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Bob Davis said I had high energy on my broadcasts and to save some of the excitement for the end of the broadcast. Yeah, he really said that. Of all the broadcasters in the world to say that, it was him.
Sounds like Bob needed to attend some more seminars to learn how to be a good broadcaster.
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I'm glad that your hanging onto this seminar thing, chings. Really grasping at straws for material. Stupid college kids wanting to meet superiors who are in the industry. Sheesh. What a waste of time.
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I met Stuart Scott once too, chings. He gave me his email address and told me to stay in touch with him for ESPN internships. Unfortunately one cannot survive on an unpaid internship in Bristol. However, pretty sweet, huh?
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Jason Sager Who's the last coach to beat KU two years in a row?
Like · Reply · 1 · 30 mins
Mark Doljac
Mark Doljac That would be oscar Weber.
Like · Reply · 24 mins
Jason Sager
Jason Sager Funny how people forget that. But hey I sure do miss Frank who NEVER beat them. How's that possible since he's a better coach and recruiter?
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Frank never beat ku? Interesting if true
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That would be interesting if it were true.
Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk
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The BB board should be renamed to Jason Sager: Huge Dumbass, and KSU Basketball
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It should actually be "One of Kansas State's Problems: Jason Sager, the writer."
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Everyone hates KSU basketball but Jason Sager.
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You all have to look for #23 on Miami. He seems to be Angel's BFF and is basically a 33-year-old 7-foot Dom. Initial credit for recognizing this goes to Cassidy but anyone remotely familiar with SLAMMIN SUTTON and possessing eyes would nail it too.
Their moments aren't as adorable as Angel's from his KSU stint, but they try.
Angel says Old Dom is his 2nd favorite teammate ever. WHO IS #1???
https://twitter.com/CanesHoops/status/703315386054217728
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Angel says Old Dom is his 2nd favorite teammate ever. WHO IS #1???
https://twitter.com/CanesHoops/status/703315386054217728
has to be samuels. you can't fake the look in those eyes.
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Super proud of him. Maybe he'll reunite with one of his K-State brotherns over seas next year! :crossfingers:
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You all have to look for #23 on Miami. He seems to be Angel's BFF and is basically a 33-year-old 7-foot Dom. Initial credit for recognizing this goes to Cassidy but anyone remotely familiar with SLAMMIN SUTTON and possessing eyes would nail it too.
Their moments aren't as adorable as Angel's from his KSU stint, but they try.
Angel says Old Dom is his 2nd favorite teammate ever. WHO IS #1???
https://twitter.com/CanesHoops/status/703315386054217728
Obviously JO