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General Discussion => The New Joe Montgomery Birther Pit => Topic started by: Kat Kid on July 11, 2013, 11:16:14 AM
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I recommend everyone watch this.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/two-american-families/ (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/two-american-families/)
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I predict for this thread lots of angry FSD posts
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yeah that was pretty great.
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Watched that the other night, pretty good but I dont really feel sorry for the people in it.
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Watched that the other night, pretty good but I dont really feel sorry for the people in it.
You don't feel sorry for anyone in it? I feel really sorry for the kids that grew up in homes where their parents were clearly struggling to do things the right way and falling short. I feel sorry for the parents too because they look like their lives sucked pretty bad, but less bad for them than the kids.
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Education, y'all.
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Really good. That woman lived in her house for 24 years and still owed like $90,000 on it. :sdeek:
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Really good. That woman lived in her house for 24 years and still owed like $90,000 on it. :sdeek:
The Associates Degrees in that show were middle of the pack. I could not get over the woman who tried to be a realtor and made less than she did as a factory worker.
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Really good. That woman lived in her house for 24 years and still owed like $90,000 on it. :sdeek:
Yeah that was a total wtf. Assuming that much of it was due to fees incurred from years of accrued late payments. Either way, my god.
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Watched that the other night, pretty good but I dont really feel sorry for the people in it.
You don't feel sorry for anyone in it? I feel really sorry for the kids that grew up in homes where their parents were clearly struggling to do things the right way and falling short. I feel sorry for the parents too because they look like their lives sucked pretty bad, but less bad for them than the kids.
No, i dont feel bad for the kids(milwaukee) that had their own kids in HS then dropped out and now cant find good jobs.
No, I dont feel bad for the mother(chicago?) that was overweight/did not have health insurance and racked up a bunch of medical bills.
People's lives are what they make of it.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8i-8Poz8VcQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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Watched that the other night, pretty good but I dont really feel sorry for the people in it.
You don't feel sorry for anyone in it? I feel really sorry for the kids that grew up in homes where their parents were clearly struggling to do things the right way and falling short. I feel sorry for the parents too because they look like their lives sucked pretty bad, but less bad for them than the kids.
No, i dont feel bad for the kids(milwaukee) that had their own kids in HS then dropped out and now cant find good jobs.
No, I dont feel bad for the mother(chicago?) that was overweight/did not have health insurance and racked up a bunch of medical bills.
People's lives are what they make of it.
The entire film is set in Milwaukee and there are two families, one white and one black. I'm not entirely sure we are talking about the same thing at this point.
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Yeah, i was surfing the web while watching it and never caught that both families were in milwaukee, houses looked like chicago so I assumed thats where the black family was.
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barely paid attention, don't feel bad for them
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Lightly/poorly educated people making very questionable financial decisions and suffering the consequences? Color me shocked. The black family seemed to complain less and work harder and, wowzers, their children are doing quite a bit better.
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I have sympathy for people who are willing to work but can't figure out how to get a decent job. It's not their fault that they're uneducated.
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I've only watched part of it, but how can you not feel bad for the lady working real estate that is at a huge disadvantage because of racism? With their kids starting a lawn service to help out?
It was kind of funny watching the white guy look for jobs wearing shorts.
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I have sympathy for people who are willing to work but can't figure out how to get a decent job. It's not their fault that they're uneducated.
Well its also not their fault that they had, at an one time, highly desirable skills, a living wage, and job security. After multiple factors came into being in the 80's and 90's that began hollowing out the middle class these people lost their jobs through no fault of their own and were left to fight over minimum wage and part-time work with no benefits.
Both families did what the "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" crowd champions - went to school, took multiple jobs, sold assets, even put their kids to work. The result? Continued poverty, foreclosure, no hope retirement. That should be worrisome to everyone.
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I have sympathy for people who are willing to work but can't figure out how to get a decent job. It's not their fault that they're uneducated.
Well its also not their fault that they had, at an one time, highly desirable skills, a living wage, and job security. After multiple factors came into being in the 80's and 90's that began hollowing out the middle class these people lost their jobs through no fault of their own and were left to fight over minimum wage and part-time work with no benefits.
Both families did what the "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" crowd champions - went to school, took multiple jobs, sold assets, even put their kids to work. The result? Continued poverty, foreclosure, no hope retirement. That should be worrisome to everyone.
I think they both failed when they could have succeeded. A big problem of theirs is that they knew too little about making good career decisions or making themselves marketable or whatever. That applies to a whole bunch of people, but not everyone - through no fault of their own.
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Although I feel bad for both families, the black family is really pretty impressive. I mean they had the first HIGH SCHOOL GRADUATE in EITHER SIDE of their family graduate from college?
They should be very proud of themselves based on that alone.
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I've only watched part of it, but how can you not feel bad for the lady working real estate that is at a huge disadvantage because of racism? With their kids starting a lawn service to help out?
It was kind of funny watching the white guy look for jobs wearing shorts.
This, in an old office I had, there would be people popping up at the front door wanting a job with a Fortune 500 Company wearing shorts and t-shirts.
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Although I feel bad for both families, the black family is really pretty impressive. I mean they had the first HIGH SCHOOL GRADUATE in EITHER SIDE of their family graduate from college?
They should be very proud of themselves based on that alone.
i was the first college graduate on either side of my family, but i'm not sure it's something my family should be proud of because they really had no part in it. also, i pretty much mirror everything chum has said in this thread. i haven't even watched the thing, but i guarantee that if you could put one of us in a time machine and send us back thirty years with the instructions to counsel both of these families on their options for one hour every week, they'd both be living the high life right now. can't really fault people for not choosing options they didn't know existed.
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OMG, the unemployed dude cooking ground beef w/ his pistol. :lol:
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OMG, the unemployed dude cooking ground beef w/ his pistol. :lol:
well now i'm going to have to actually watch this thing
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OMG, the unemployed dude cooking ground beef w/ his pistol. :lol:
well now i'm going to have to actually watch this thing
yeah, this def. got my attention
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i'll watch eventually too. in advance of knowing what the hell i'm talking about, i can only opine that if they had kids, then they deserved whatever hard times befell them.
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Although I feel bad for both families, the black family is really pretty impressive. I mean they had the first HIGH SCHOOL GRADUATE in EITHER SIDE of their family graduate from college?
They should be very proud of themselves based on that alone.
i was the first college graduate on either side of my family, but i'm not sure it's something my family should be proud of because they really had no part in it. also, i pretty much mirror everything chum has said in this thread. i haven't even watched the thing, but i guarantee that if you could put one of us in a time machine and send us back thirty years with the instructions to counsel both of these families on their options for one hour every week, they'd both be living the high life right now. can't really fault people for not choosing options they didn't know existed.
No, they should be proud. I really don't know anything about your situation growing up, but your parents should be proud of how they raised you, too. I mean they had to have had some impact on you in some way.
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i'll watch eventually too. in advance of knowing what the hell i'm talking about, i can only opine that if they had kids, then they deserved whatever hard times befell them.
the college grad specifically avoided it. probably gay.
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OK, watched the whole thing, and I have a somewhat devil's advocate thought:
Do these people really have it that bad? They're arguably better off than pretty much anyone in the lower class in history except for perhaps their parents' generation. They're most likely better off than the Mexicans who took their jobs (whose lives were most likely improved with the manufacturing jobs). If anything these people are extremely fortunate to have been born in the US.
Obviously globalization has made things worse for these families and others like them, but has it made the world overall a worse place? I don't think so.
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the college grad specifically avoided it. probably gay.
there you go. with kids, don't complete hs. no kids, graduate college and presumably go on to enjoy life. same family, same genes, different outcomes.
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OK, watched the whole thing, and I have a somewhat devil's advocate thought:
Do these people really have it that bad? They're arguably better off than pretty much anyone in the lower class in history except for perhaps their parents' generation. They're most likely better off than the Mexicans who took their jobs (whose lives were most likely improved with the manufacturing jobs). If anything these people are extremely fortunate to have been born in the US.
Obviously globalization has made things worse for these families and others like them, but has it made the world overall a worse place? I don't think so.
the world is really pretty great and life is pretty easy. people like to complain, though (everybody).
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Although I feel bad for both families, the black family is really pretty impressive. I mean they had the first HIGH SCHOOL GRADUATE in EITHER SIDE of their family graduate from college?
They should be very proud of themselves based on that alone.
i was the first college graduate on either side of my family, but i'm not sure it's something my family should be proud of because they really had no part in it. also, i pretty much mirror everything chum has said in this thread. i haven't even watched the thing, but i guarantee that if you could put one of us in a time machine and send us back thirty years with the instructions to counsel both of these families on their options for one hour every week, they'd both be living the high life right now. can't really fault people for not choosing options they didn't know existed.
No, they should be proud. I really don't know anything about your situation growing up, but your parents should be proud of how they raised you, too. I mean they had to have had some impact on you in some way.
well sure they can be proud of how they raised me if they want too. but being proud of themselves because as an adult i chose to take college classes until i graduated just seems a little weird to me. are they less proud of themselves because my sister didn't? maybe we even each other out so they are just average proud of themselves. also and idk, but at what point in my life do they stop being proud of themselves based on my accomplishements? when i'm thirty? fourty? "oh honey. it looks like daris is going to retire next year because he systematically contributed to his 401k over the course of his career. "i'm just so proud of you and i right now. give me a kiss". idk man. i mean go get a hobby dorks.
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Although I feel bad for both families, the black family is really pretty impressive. I mean they had the first HIGH SCHOOL GRADUATE in EITHER SIDE of their family graduate from college?
They should be very proud of themselves based on that alone.
i was the first college graduate on either side of my family, but i'm not sure it's something my family should be proud of because they really had no part in it. also, i pretty much mirror everything chum has said in this thread. i haven't even watched the thing, but i guarantee that if you could put one of us in a time machine and send us back thirty years with the instructions to counsel both of these families on their options for one hour every week, they'd both be living the high life right now. can't really fault people for not choosing options they didn't know existed.
No, they should be proud. I really don't know anything about your situation growing up, but your parents should be proud of how they raised you, too. I mean they had to have had some impact on you in some way.
well sure they can be proud of how they raised me if they want too. but being proud of themselves because as an adult i chose to take college classes until i graduated just seems a little weird to me. are they less proud of themselves because my sister didn't? maybe we even each other out so they are just average proud of themselves. also and idk, but at what point in my life do they stop being proud of themselves based on my accomplishements? when i'm thirty? fourty? "oh honey. it looks like daris is going to retire next year because he systematically contributed to his 401k over the course of his career. "i'm just so proud of you and i right now. give me a kiss". idk man. i mean go get a hobby dorks.
Yeah, pride is kind of silly. It's one of the seven deadly sins iirc from that Brad Pitt movie. So maybe you should pray for their souls or something.
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Although I feel bad for both families, the black family is really pretty impressive. I mean they had the first HIGH SCHOOL GRADUATE in EITHER SIDE of their family graduate from college?
They should be very proud of themselves based on that alone.
i was the first college graduate on either side of my family, but i'm not sure it's something my family should be proud of because they really had no part in it. also, i pretty much mirror everything chum has said in this thread. i haven't even watched the thing, but i guarantee that if you could put one of us in a time machine and send us back thirty years with the instructions to counsel both of these families on their options for one hour every week, they'd both be living the high life right now. can't really fault people for not choosing options they didn't know existed.
No, they should be proud. I really don't know anything about your situation growing up, but your parents should be proud of how they raised you, too. I mean they had to have had some impact on you in some way.
well sure they can be proud of how they raised me if they want too. but being proud of themselves because as an adult i chose to take college classes until i graduated just seems a little weird to me. are they less proud of themselves because my sister didn't? maybe we even each other out so they are just average proud of themselves. also and idk, but at what point in my life do they stop being proud of themselves based on my accomplishements? when i'm thirty? fourty? "oh honey. it looks like daris is going to retire next year because he systematically contributed to his 401k over the course of his career. "i'm just so proud of you and i right now. give me a kiss". idk man. i mean go get a hobby dorks.
Yeah, pride is kind of silly. It's one of the seven deadly sins iirc from that Brad Pitt movie. So maybe you should pray for their souls or something.
hey man don't shoot the messenger. maybe take it out on your unproud parents because of their son that stopped at just a bachelors degree. :dunno:
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i'll watch eventually too. in advance of knowing what the hell i'm talking about, i can only opine that if they had kids, then they deserved whatever hard times befell them.
I sometimes think a mandatory BC implant that won't allow pregnancies until 25 would solve a ton of this countries problems
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OK, watched the whole thing, and I have a somewhat devil's advocate thought:
Do these people really have it that bad? They're arguably better off than pretty much anyone in the lower class in history except for perhaps their parents' generation. They're most likely better off than the Mexicans who took their jobs (whose lives were most likely improved with the manufacturing jobs). If anything these people are extremely fortunate to have been born in the US.
Obviously globalization has made things worse for these families and others like them, but has it made the world overall a worse place? I don't think so.
I think it's mostly about how they tried and failed to meet their own standards, which were very average relative to their peer group.
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As I said earlier I dont feel sorry for any of the families but I really liked this frontline because it showed a glimpse of how the middle class has changed in the past 30 years as we moved from an Industrial economy to a service based one.
I'm sure there were a bunch of pissed of farmers/field hands in the early 1900's talking about how these darn tractors have took their job and they are just too old to move to the city and get a factory job. Unfortunately Frontline was not there to document it so I won't be able to watch that show on my flatscreen.
Side note- The black family's kids are definitely in a better position than the white family's kids because the black family stressed the importance of education(even if they went about it in a dumbassery way using CC to fund college).
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OK, watched the whole thing, and I have a somewhat devil's advocate thought:
Do these people really have it that bad? They're arguably better off than pretty much anyone in the lower class in history except for perhaps their parents' generation. They're most likely better off than the Mexicans who took their jobs (whose lives were most likely improved with the manufacturing jobs). If anything these people are extremely fortunate to have been born in the US.
Obviously globalization has made things worse for these families and others like them, but has it made the world overall a worse place? I don't think so.
I think it's mostly about how they tried and failed to meet their own standards, which were very average relative to their peer group.
I think it depends on how you define peer group. I also think the unprecedented fortune of their parents' generation skewed their standards.
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As I said earlier I dont feel sorry for any of the families but I really liked this frontline because it showed a glimpse of how the middle class has changed in the past 30 years as we moved from an Industrial economy to a service based one.
I'm sure there were a bunch of pissed of farmers/field hands in the early 1900's talking about how these darn tractors have took their job and they are just too old to move to the city and get a factory job. Unfortunately Frontline was not there to document it so I won't be able to watch that show on my flatscreen.
Side note- The black family's kids are definitely in a better position than the white family's kids because the black family stressed the importance of education(even if they went about it in a dumbassery way using CC to fund college).
Yeah I don't think on the macro level there is necessarily anything wrong. But I still don't understand the animus to a bunch of kids getting raised by struggling parents. Seems not fun at all.
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i'll watch eventually too. in advance of knowing what the hell i'm talking about, i can only opine that if they had kids, then they deserved whatever hard times befell them.
Both families had more children than the repopulation rate, and both had children early.
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OK, watched the whole thing, and I have a somewhat devil's advocate thought:
Do these people really have it that bad? They're arguably better off than pretty much anyone in the lower class in history except for perhaps their parents' generation. They're most likely better off than the Mexicans who took their jobs (whose lives were most likely improved with the manufacturing jobs). If anything these people are extremely fortunate to have been born in the US.
Obviously globalization has made things worse for these families and others like them, but has it made the world overall a worse place? I don't think so.
I think it's mostly about how they tried and failed to meet their own standards, which were very average relative to their peer group.
I think it depends on how you define peer group. I also think the unprecedented fortune of their parents' generation skewed their standards.
Their definition is the only one that matters. Their standards they failed to meet may have been skewed, but they weren't unrealistic.
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Both families had more children than the repopulation rate, and both had children early.
then let them suffer.
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OK, watched the whole thing, and I have a somewhat devil's advocate thought:
Do these people really have it that bad? They're arguably better off than pretty much anyone in the lower class in history except for perhaps their parents' generation. They're most likely better off than the Mexicans who took their jobs (whose lives were most likely improved with the manufacturing jobs). If anything these people are extremely fortunate to have been born in the US.
Obviously globalization has made things worse for these families and others like them, but has it made the world overall a worse place? I don't think so.
I think it's mostly about how they tried and failed to meet their own standards, which were very average relative to their peer group.
I think it depends on how you define peer group. I also think the unprecedented fortune of their parents' generation skewed their standards.
Their definition is the only one that matters. Their standards they failed to meet may have been skewed, but they weren't unrealistic.
That's fair. But what do we do about it? Do we need to do anything?
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That's fair. But what do we do about it? Do we need to do anything?
Well, no one asked the Stanleys to pay for their kid's education on a mirace (credit card) and then borrow against their house to open a business that failed. Not much you can do about that.
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That's fair. But what do we do about it? Do we need to do anything?
Well, no one asked the Stanleys to pay for their kid's education on a mirace (credit card) and then borrow against their house to open a business that failed. Not much you can do about that.
Do you think perhaps that their access to credit may influence their credit worthiness? Seems like paying for their kid's education was the best decision they made.
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the world is really pretty great and life is pretty easy. people like to complain, though (everybody).
yes
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That's fair. But what do we do about it? Do we need to do anything?
Well, no one asked the Stanleys to pay for their kid's education on a mirace (credit card) and then borrow against their house to open a business that failed. Not much you can do about that.
Do you think perhaps that their access to credit may influence their credit worthiness? Seems like paying for their kid's education was the best decision they made.
For their son it turned out great, no doubt.
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Good doc tho. Very real. I like PBS.
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Good doc tho. Very real. I like PBS.
it's really a great use of taxpayer money.
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it's really a great use of taxpayer money.
it's about time educated wealthy people got something in return for their taxes.
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it's really a great use of taxpayer money.
it's about time educated wealthy people got something in return for their taxes.
That doc made me feel like I'm a Feudal Lord looking down on my peasants
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it's really a great use of taxpayer money.
it's about time educated wealthy people got something in return for their taxes.
lol. Like half of the programming on the SF PBS stations are biography documentaries of gay film icons from a long time ago. But I enjoy the news hour a lot. It may be my favorite show.
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i'd have to find a whole lot of other ways to fill my day if it wasn't for the bbc and npr. pbs is great too. and it's all free.
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it's really a great use of taxpayer money.
it's about time educated wealthy people got something in return for their taxes.
lol. Like half of the programming on the SF PBS stations are biography documentaries of gay film icons from a long time ago. But I enjoy the news hour a lot. It may be my favorite show.
It is really good. Going to have a sad when old crotchety liberal bastion Shields hangs em up.