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TITLETOWN - A Decade Long Celebration Of The Greatest Achievement In College Athletics History => Kansas State Basketball is hard => Topic started by: kso_FAN on February 16, 2012, 01:33:35 PM
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I missed it, but last week ESPN came out with their own power ratings (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/7561413/bpi-college-basketball-power-index-explained) called the BPI (Basketball Percentage Index) (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/7567584/bpi-feb-12-college-basketball-power-index-rankings). They are claiming it is better than the rpi (not difficult), but also better than Sagarin and kenpom. I had also missed that last year ESPN hired Dean Oliver (http://www.espnmediazone3.com/us/2011/03/03/renown-sports-statistician-dean-oliver-joins-espn/) whose work Pomeroy used as a basis for the statistics he uses on his site. Oliver was one of the originators of advanced stats for basketball and actually came up with the Four Factors (eFG%, TO%, OR%, FTR) as 4 of the essential advanced stats used to evaluate basketball teams. More intersting since Pomeroy also writes for ESPN and now charges for his own site and information.
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yes, these are much better
26 Kansas State
:thumbs:
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One unique thing is that the BPI factors in whether key players are missing.
An article today about it said this about K-State:
Kansas State (17-8 in D-I, 61st in RPI, 27th in BPI)
Again, there's a large disparity in the way strength of schedule is measured here. The RPI has Kansas State with the 85th-hardest schedule in the nation, while the BPI has it with the 25th-hardest. Having played 10 BPI top-50 teams -- including Kansas and Texas twice each, Missouri, Baylor and three highly ranked teams out of conference -- there's no doubt Frank Martin's squad has faced some really tough competition.
The Wildcats have a signature performance with a 16-point win against Missouri back in January, and they've come up just short in some of their tougher games (six losses by single digits). Not only that, but some of their lesser performances, including three of their past five losses, were games in which they have been missing key players. It's very tough to see Kansas State as unworthy of making the tournament even though its RPI might indicate as much.
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Question, will the selection committee consider BPI? Does the selection committee even have set criteria they evaluate (RPI, BPI etc) or is it just each individual's opinion based on whatever data they prefer to use?
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Seems really close to pomeroy. A quick glance at the top 10 makes me think the biggest difference from Pomeroy is adding importance to wins.
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Frank has to be loving the allowances given for "missing key players".
I mean, who will be better at manipulating this system when it is the main one used for tourn-a-ment selection? There will eventually be a Frankuary Rule added to the calculations of the BPI
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the "preparing men for their future" index.
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the "preparing men for their future" index.
Yeah, anything over 1.00 will nave a negative effect on the BPI.
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the "preparing men for their future" index.
pmftf index?
I like it.
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Feb 19th:
25 Kansas State
And Jay Bilas has his own little ranking:
21. Kansas State Wildcats
Kansas State leads the Big 12 in offensive rebounds and second-chance points. This is not a great offensive team, but it is a physical, hard-playing team. Still turnover prone and deficient from the free throw line, K-State is good enough to be a protected seed.
:emawkid:
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What exactly is a protected seed?
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What exactly is a protected seed?
I would guess favored in the first round, so 1-7.
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What exactly is a protected seed?
It means we are in
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What exactly is a protected seed?
It means we are in
And we play Wisconsin in the second round.
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What exactly is a protected seed?
It means we are in
And we play Wisconsin in the second round.
We are very Wisconsiny ourselves this year....
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What exactly is a protected seed?
It means we are in
And we play Wisconsin in the second round.
We are very Wisconsiny ourselves this year....
Except for the good shooting part.
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What exactly is a protected seed?
It means we are in
And we play Wisconsin in the second round.
We are very Wisconsiny ourselves this year....
Except for the good shooting part.
And we don't have a redhead that looks like Ronald McDonald.
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What exactly is a protected seed?
It means we are in
And we play Wisconsin in the second round.
We are very Wisconsiny ourselves this year....
Sort of.. in that we both rely on defense. (our defensive efficiency is better in league games)
But Wiscy still does things a lot differently (and a lot slower) than we do. Their concepts revolve around controlling the game with discipline and their biggest defensive strength is forcing you into tough shots with that discipline. They don't force turnovers, but they don't foul and they don't let you get oboards against them.
Offensively they mainly don't turn the ball over, other than that they are average at everything. Wisconsin actually is shooting worse than we are this year.
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What exactly is a protected seed?
It means we are in
And we play Wisconsin in the second round.
We are very Wisconsiny ourselves this year....
Sort of.. in that we both rely on defense. (our defensive efficiency is better in league games)
But Wiscy still does things a lot differently (and a lot slower) than we do. Their concepts revolve around controlling the game with discipline and their biggest defensive strength is forcing you into tough shots with that discipline. They don't force turnovers, but they don't foul and they don't let you get oboards against them.
Offensively they mainly don't turn the ball over, other than that they are average at everything. Wisconsin actually is shooting worse than we are this year.
Oh man, this is our year....
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What exactly is a protected seed?
It means we are in
And we play Wisconsin in the second round.
We are very Wisconsiny ourselves this year....
Sort of.. in that we both rely on defense. (our defensive efficiency is better in league games)
But Wiscy still does things a lot differently (and a lot slower) than we do. Their concepts revolve around controlling the game with discipline and their biggest defensive strength is forcing you into tough shots with that discipline. They don't force turnovers, but they don't foul and they don't let you get oboards against them.
Offensively they mainly don't turn the ball over, other than that they are average at everything. Wisconsin actually is shooting worse than we are this year.
Oh man, this is our year....
You hear that Bo? :comehere:
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What exactly is a protected seed?
It means we are in
And we play Wisconsin in the second round.
We are very Wisconsiny ourselves this year....
Sort of.. in that we both rely on defense. (our defensive efficiency is better in league games)
But Wiscy still does things a lot differently (and a lot slower) than we do. Their concepts revolve around controlling the game with discipline and their biggest defensive strength is forcing you into tough shots with that discipline. They don't force turnovers, but they don't foul and they don't let you get oboards against them.
Offensively they mainly don't turn the ball over, other than that they are average at everything. Wisconsin actually is shooting worse than we are this year.
I mean. how is Ojeleye not licking his chops over that opportunity? And the Madison weather? Man
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I would rather go the NIT than be humiliated by Bo again.
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I would rather go the NIT than be humiliated by Bo again.
we would destroy them this year. did you read _FAN's analysis? lol at them using their energy up forcing us into bad shots. In your face Bo, I was going to take that shot anyway! meanwhile, jamar just drew a foul after the O-Reb.
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I would rather go the NIT than be humiliated by Bo again.
we would destroy them this year. did you read _FAN's analysis? lol at them using their energy up forcing us into bad shots. In your face Bo, I was going to take that shot anyway! meanwhile, jamar just drew a foul after the O-Reb.
If we don't play them, I am assuming we would have beat them if we had. So, looks like Frank is 1-2 against Bo. This thing is getting close!
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if we draw wisky again I will stage a mass suicide
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if we draw wisky again I will stage a mass suicide
Agreed. Must involve cheese and/or sausage.
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I would rather go the NIT than be humiliated by Bo again.
what an absolute garbage post.
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if we draw wisky again I will stage a mass suicide
Matching Reebok everyone!!!
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What exactly is a protected seed?
It means we are in
I think it also means that they try and get you a first round game close to home. :dunno:
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if we draw wisky again I will stage a mass suicide
Agreed. Must involve cheese and/or sausage.
and this guy
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.midwestsportsfans.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F10%2FScreen-shot-2011-10-27-at-5.01.24-AM.png&hash=45f8df09a92092735d3c39c2266061cc575a2e97)
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receiving a top-4 seed in its region — a position now referred to as a protected seed.
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receiving a top-4 seed in its region — a position now referred to as a protected seed.
:surprised:
No way........right?
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receiving a top-4 seed in its region — a position now referred to as a protected seed.
:surprised:
No way........right?
yes, no way. you are right.
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I would rather go the NIT than be humiliated by Bo again.
what an absolute garbage post.
It was a joke, dumbass!
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I KNOW, IT WAS A GARBAGE JOKE!
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What exactly is a protected seed?
It means we are in
I think it also means that they try and get you a first round game close to home. :dunno:
Louisville would be amazing, if we didn't get Omaha in that scenario.
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we aren't getting Omaha
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we aren't getting Omaha
Portland! :ksu:
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we aren't getting Omaha
Portland! :ksu:
yeah, pretty much anywhere but Omaha gets my vote.
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we aren't getting Omaha
Portland! :ksu:
Oh man, would Beems TSC in person if that happens?!
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Bigwillie is laughing his ass off at you guys for even talking about where we are going in the tournament.
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Jay Bilas thinks bigwillie is a dumbass
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we aren't getting Omaha
Portland! :ksu:
Oh man, would Beems TSC in person if that happens?!
He refused to last time he was at a Cats tourney locale.
JMart has already confirmed a KATPAK if we get Portland.
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we aren't getting Omaha
Portland! :ksu:
Oh man, would Beems TSC in person if that happens?!
He refused to last time he was at a Cats tourney locale.
JMart has already confirmed a KATPAK if we get Portland.
oh man. sorry vegas, I may have a new, dreary, but more hipstery destination. fats, warm up the volvo. :driving:
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Lots of math talk on today's CBS college hoops podcast. Around 12 minutes in, one of them says EMAW's RPI and the RPI in general is mumped up.
:combofan:
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Lots of math talk on today's CBS college hoops podcast. Around 12 minutes in, one of them says EMAW's RPI and the RPI in general is mumped up.
:combofan:
link
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Really surprised our RPI is that low. Then again, I don't even know how the hell RPI works, and haven't checked is since last season probably. All I know is they say it is used to group teams as "quality win, etc." and not really a way to actually rank the teams individually. Still weird to think of KSU not being thought of as a quality win.
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Really surprised our RPI is that low. Then again, I don't even know how the hell RPI works, and haven't checked is since last season probably. All I know is they say it is used to group teams as "quality win, etc." and not really a way to actually rank the teams individually. Still weird to think of KSU not being thought of as a quality win.
Gotta think RPI will get a shot in the ass from our recent and upcoming portions of the schedule.
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Really surprised our RPI is that low. Then again, I don't even know how the hell RPI works, and haven't checked is since last season probably. All I know is they say it is used to group teams as "quality win, etc." and not really a way to actually rank the teams individually. Still weird to think of KSU not being thought of as a quality win.
Seth Davis explains how it works in his stupid attempt to defend it. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/seth_davis/02/20/Hoop.Thoughts/index.html
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Really surprised our RPI is that low. Then again, I don't even know how the hell RPI works, and haven't checked is since last season probably. All I know is they say it is used to group teams as "quality win, etc." and not really a way to actually rank the teams individually. Still weird to think of KSU not being thought of as a quality win.
Seth Davis explains how it works in his stupid attempt to defend it. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/seth_davis/02/20/Hoop.Thoughts/index.html
thank God for Kenpom
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Really surprised our RPI is that low. Then again, I don't even know how the hell RPI works, and haven't checked is since last season probably. All I know is they say it is used to group teams as "quality win, etc." and not really a way to actually rank the teams individually. Still weird to think of KSU not being thought of as a quality win.
Seth Davis explains how it works in his stupid attempt to defend it. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/seth_davis/02/20/Hoop.Thoughts/index.html
Who was it on here that hates Seth Davis as much as me? MIR, was that you?
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Really surprised our RPI is that low. Then again, I don't even know how the hell RPI works, and haven't checked is since last season probably. All I know is they say it is used to group teams as "quality win, etc." and not really a way to actually rank the teams individually. Still weird to think of KSU not being thought of as a quality win.
Seth Davis explains how it works in his stupid attempt to defend it. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/seth_davis/02/20/Hoop.Thoughts/index.html
Who was it on here that hates Seth Davis as much as me? MIR, was that you?
I used to be pretty indifferent, but to actually say "believe it or not, sometimes the less efficient team still ends up with more points" is just mindboggling to me.
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Really surprised our RPI is that low. Then again, I don't even know how the hell RPI works, and haven't checked is since last season probably. All I know is they say it is used to group teams as "quality win, etc." and not really a way to actually rank the teams individually. Still weird to think of KSU not being thought of as a quality win.
It's mind-boggling logic. "Oh, we don't use it to rank YOU, silly. We only use it to rank the teams you play and put them in groups. And you when you're on other teams' schedules."
How can it be good for one thing and not the other?
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Really surprised our RPI is that low. Then again, I don't even know how the hell RPI works, and haven't checked is since last season probably. All I know is they say it is used to group teams as "quality win, etc." and not really a way to actually rank the teams individually. Still weird to think of KSU not being thought of as a quality win.
Seth Davis explains how it works in his stupid attempt to defend it. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/seth_davis/02/20/Hoop.Thoughts/index.html
Who was it on here that hates Seth Davis as much as me? MIR, was that you?
I used to be pretty indifferent, but to actually say "believe it or not, sometimes the less efficient team still ends up with more points" is just mindboggling to me.
he might be referring to a team ranked lower in kenpom ratings (less efficient) beating a team ranked higher? dunno, just giving him the benefit of the doubt, which I probably shouldn't.
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Lots of math talk on today's CBS college hoops podcast. Around 12 minutes in, one of them says EMAW's RPI and the RPI in general is mumped up.
:combofan:
link
:buttontopushthattransportsyoutomyofficewhereihaveitloadedupinitunes:
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Really surprised our RPI is that low. Then again, I don't even know how the hell RPI works, and haven't checked is since last season probably. All I know is they say it is used to group teams as "quality win, etc." and not really a way to actually rank the teams individually. Still weird to think of KSU not being thought of as a quality win.
Seth Davis explains how it works in his stupid attempt to defend it. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/seth_davis/02/20/Hoop.Thoughts/index.html
Who was it on here that hates Seth Davis as much as me? MIR, was that you?
I used to be pretty indifferent, but to actually say "believe it or not, sometimes the less efficient team still ends up with more points" is just mindboggling to me.
he might be referring to a team ranked lower in kenpom ratings (less efficient) beating a team ranked higher? dunno, just giving him the benefit of the doubt, which I probably shouldn't.
Even if that's what he meant, it's like, oh really seth davis? you mean upsets can happen sometimes? gmafb :jerk:
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Really surprised our RPI is that low. Then again, I don't even know how the hell RPI works, and haven't checked is since last season probably. All I know is they say it is used to group teams as "quality win, etc." and not really a way to actually rank the teams individually. Still weird to think of KSU not being thought of as a quality win.
Seth Davis explains how it works in his stupid attempt to defend it. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/seth_davis/02/20/Hoop.Thoughts/index.html
Who was it on here that hates Seth Davis as much as me? MIR, was that you?
I used to be pretty indifferent, but to actually say "believe it or not, sometimes the less efficient team still ends up with more points" is just mindboggling to me.
he might be referring to a team ranked lower in kenpom ratings (less efficient) beating a team ranked higher? dunno, just giving him the benefit of the doubt, which I probably shouldn't.
Even if that's what he meant, it's like, oh really seth davis? you mean upsets can happen sometimes? gmafb :jerk:
Yeah, I think that's what kenpom was referring to in his response to me. It just makes it slighlty less dumb.
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Really surprised our RPI is that low. Then again, I don't even know how the hell RPI works, and haven't checked is since last season probably. All I know is they say it is used to group teams as "quality win, etc." and not really a way to actually rank the teams individually. Still weird to think of KSU not being thought of as a quality win.
Seth Davis explains how it works in his stupid attempt to defend it. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/seth_davis/02/20/Hoop.Thoughts/index.html
Who was it on here that hates Seth Davis as much as me? MIR, was that you?
Hate Seth Davis, he's one of those cocksure dumbasses that I can't stand.
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Really surprised our RPI is that low. Then again, I don't even know how the hell RPI works, and haven't checked is since last season probably. All I know is they say it is used to group teams as "quality win, etc." and not really a way to actually rank the teams individually. Still weird to think of KSU not being thought of as a quality win.
Seth Davis explains how it works in his stupid attempt to defend it. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/seth_davis/02/20/Hoop.Thoughts/index.html
Who was it on here that hates Seth Davis as much as me? MIR, was that you?
Hate Seth Davis, he's one of those cocksure dumbasses that I can't stand.
He is not helping himself on twitter... "but coaches will run up the score if MOV is used!". Man.
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Really surprised our RPI is that low. Then again, I don't even know how the hell RPI works, and haven't checked is since last season probably. All I know is they say it is used to group teams as "quality win, etc." and not really a way to actually rank the teams individually. Still weird to think of KSU not being thought of as a quality win.
Seth Davis explains how it works in his stupid attempt to defend it. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/seth_davis/02/20/Hoop.Thoughts/index.html
Who was it on here that hates Seth Davis as much as me? MIR, was that you?
Hate Seth Davis, he's one of those cocksure dumbasses that I can't stand.
He is not helping himself on twitter... "but coaches will run up the score if MOV is used!". Man.
Question: Why are people so afraid of RUTS? Still hiding behind the "sportsmanship" facade? GMAFB.
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How often would RUTS even happen? For teams such as KSU (safely in (:gocho:)) we've had maybe 2 or 3 games where walk-ons got in? And maybe against KU a walk-on got in against us?
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Question: Why are people so afraid of RUTS? Still hiding behind the "sportsmanship" facade? GMAFB.
Its really just Davis saying this from what I've read. He has to throw out dumb arguments to try to defend his asinine defense of the RPI.
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How often would RUTS even happen? For teams such as KSU (safely in (:gocho:)) we've had maybe 2 or 3 games where walk-ons got in? And maybe against KU a walk-on got in against us?
Actual Davis tweet:
@MattNorlander Bubble team winning by 10 pts w 1:30 to go. Right now he takes out starters. Under your idea he leaves em in and pads margin.
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How often would RUTS even happen? For teams such as KSU (safely in (:gocho:)) we've had maybe 2 or 3 games where walk-ons got in? And maybe against KU a walk-on got in against us?
Actual Davis tweet:
@MattNorlander Bubble team winning by 10 pts w 1:30 to go. Right now he takes out starters. Under your idea he leaves em in and pads margin.
The horror! (https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffc01.deviantart.net%2Ffs70%2Ff%2F2011%2F198%2F7%2Fe%2Fscreaming_emoticon_by_invaderamby206-d3xyh2y.gif&hash=6de4ff173010343d26dac1850acd618979d808ae)
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How often would RUTS even happen? For teams such as KSU (safely in (:gocho:)) we've had maybe 2 or 3 games where walk-ons got in? And maybe against KU a walk-on got in against us?
Actual Davis tweet:
@MattNorlander Bubble team winning by 10 pts w 1:30 to go. Right now he takes out starters. Under your idea he leaves em in and pads margin.
If you pull your starters up by 10 with 1:30 left you are a bad coach.
Seth Davis reminds me of all the old scouts in Money Ball.
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How often would RUTS even happen? For teams such as KSU (safely in (:gocho:)) we've had maybe 2 or 3 games where walk-ons got in? And maybe against KU a walk-on got in against us?
Actual Davis tweet:
@MattNorlander Bubble team winning by 10 pts w 1:30 to go. Right now he takes out starters. Under your idea he leaves em in and pads margin.
whotf takes out starters in that situation?
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It's like he doesn't ever watch basketball.
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It's like he doesn't ever watch basketball.
I know I was completely offended and pissed off when Barnes didn't pull his starters w/ 1:16 left last week. THEY WERE UP 10 and he left his starters in to push it to 11!
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It's like he doesn't ever watch basketball.
Yeah, he's terrible. Here is his "challenge":
Seth Davis @SethDavisHoops
I know you all are getting tired of this but I re-issue my fundamental challenge: If you rip the RPI, u have to reveal your bracket on 3/11.
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It's like he doesn't ever watch basketball.
Yeah, he's terrible. Here is his "challenge":
Seth Davis @SethDavisHoops
I know you all are getting tired of this but I re-issue my fundamental challenge: If you rip the RPI, u have to reveal your bracket on 3/11.
Ask him if he's outraged UT left their starters in against K-State, up 10 with 1:16 to go.
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Guys chill Seth forgot there is a shot clock and he thinks they play all ones the last two minutes.
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maybe he meant to say "up by 100 with 1:30 to go".
Who knows. Just giving him the benefit of the doubt.
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Norlander, Matthew @MattNorlander Reply Retweet Favorite · Open
How 'bout that, @SethDavisHoops. RT @cjschmidt1: @MattNorlander Bubble team K-State was up 12 points w/ 1:30 to go. They pulled no starters.
:lol:
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i like Norlander. though i wish he'd change his podcast music back to what he had before and then use the current music when the NCAAs start
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RPI history: http://basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2085
RPI should jump to around 30-32 with tonight's win BTW.
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Today's CBS Hoops podcast title:
02/24/12: Seth Davis is back again and still defending the RPI
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Today's CBS Hoops podcast title:
02/24/12: Seth Davis is back again and still defending the RPI
http://podcasts.cstv.com/feeds/mensbasketball.xml
RPI talk begins at around 13:20.
Went straight to the scoring margin argument.
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Seth Davis is a clown and all, but I enjoyed this article.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/seth_davis/02/29/scouting.reports/index.html?eref=sihp&sct=hp_t11_a1 (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/seth_davis/02/29/scouting.reports/index.html?eref=sihp&sct=hp_t11_a1)
Of note:
We are not alone in our :chainsaw: for those ginger jerks. Wisconsin: I don't really respect the way they play. Jordan Taylor likes to run and grab you, and then throw his head back and try to get a call. If you set a pick, they take a dive. They cheat the game. Everybody raves about this defensive juggernaut, but that's bull. They dribble the clock out and mug you out of the building. Part of the reason they lost to Cornell and Davidson is because when you get into the tournament, refs outside the Big Ten don't fall for that. Taylor is kind of struggling, but they're always going to be in the game because they're not going to shoot until there are six seconds left on the shot clock. Then they give it to Taylor. That's their offense. They don't even run the swing as much as they used to. Taylor plays no defense because he's trying to save his energy. Jared Berggren, Josh Gasser and Mike Bruesewitz have all had fabulous seasons, and Ryan Evans has really taken his game to the next level. They're going to be in every game because of the way they play and the fact that they have a lot of weapons.
Pretty meh KSU Cats summary:
Kansas State: This is a weird team. Frank Martin does a great job and the Wildcats are a great defensive team, but they just struggle to score. They hound you like dogs and do a great job of denying the wings. You have to make jump shots against them, even though they'll be contested. Rodney McGruder is not great off the bounce, but he can score in a variety of ways. He can do everything, but he doesn't do anything great. They get offense from their rebounding, so if you can minimize their second-chance points they struggle, although it's hard because they're so physical. Will Spradling and Jamar Samuels have had some big games, but they need somebody besides McGruder who's going to consistently give them 10, 12 points a night, and they don't have that.
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On one of the CBS college basketball podcasts last week Davis did a much better job of conveying his RPI and scoring margin. I still very much disagree with his premise but he didn't sound as dumb as he did with the 140 character limitations of twitter.
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Wisconsin: they're always going to be in the game because they're not going to shoot until there are six seconds left on the shot clock.
what an utter Fake Sugar Dick (WARNING, NOT THE REAL SUGAR DICK!).