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TITLETOWN - A Decade Long Celebration Of The Greatest Achievement In College Athletics History => Kansas State Basketball is hard => Topic started by: catzacker on February 14, 2012, 09:42:45 AM
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So, this year is over (<---this is just a cheapshot, not the point of the post, just let it go). Looking ahead to next year:
1 – angel / jones / Sprads
2 – Sprads / Tay / jones
3 – McGruds / South
4 - ? / Nino? Watson?
5 – Gip / Diaz / JO / Upshaw / Euro
questions:
Who’s at the 4 spot? I guess this is where Watson might not get Frank’d? Nino is just awful, imo. His really needed some PT this year to help his development. I suppose Gip or Euro could be at the 4. I suppose Frank could just go big, although I’m not found of that.
Will our guards be enough? I dunno. They aren't this year.
’13, somehow someway, better include 2 top150-ish guards. If somehow this staff coud pull a rabbit out of a hat for this class and get a top 150-ish guard then frank watson and omari. I’m also kinda terrified of ’13 if Gip doesn’t develop into something special. Angel will be better by then, but I don’t think he’s going to provide the scoring needed. I don’t know where our scoring will come from then.
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We are going to go big.
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The bigs are all interchangeable.
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I'm actually hoping Diaz can improve enough to start next to JO. That kind of size could be a huge asset defensively, especially with Upshaw coming off the bench.
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The bigs are all interchangeable.
Yep.
Next year all depends on our guards improving, and under Frank I expect the majority of his players to improve if they stay around. No doubt a 11/12 win Big 12 season and solid NCAA team should be the expectation.
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as awful as our guards looked last night I'm not really worried about them next year
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I don't know that gip is going to develop as much as most would like. His game is pretty polished for a freshman big. Will be a nice asset (already is) though.
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I don't know that gip is going to develop as much as most would like. His game is pretty polished for a freshman big. Will be a nice asset (already is) though.
foot speed can be improved with training. His weight could be an issue if he lets it, but he has the best hands and bbiq of all the bigs by far.
I think he's done a much better job of using his body to keep defenders away and drawing contact.
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Provided no bigs get Franked, this team is going to look damn impressive getting off the bus.
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I don't see diaz or gip getting a boot. they seem to try very hard and don't seem to be pouters.
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Provided no bigs get Franked, this team is going to look damn impressive getting off the bus.
Very true. If Omari gets Franked, it could just be the BDILTGOTBOAT (best damned impressive-looking team getting off the bus of all time)
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The bigs are all interchangeable.
Yep.
Next year all depends on our guards improving, and under Frank I expect the majority of his players to improve if they stay around. No doubt a 11/12 win Big 12 season and solid NCAA team should be the expectation.
I get the bigs’ interchangeableness (I don’t even know if that’s a word), but then the question becomes can they be effective. Will a lineup w/ Gip and Diaz or JO and Diaz be effective, given the additional minute they’ll have to play? It will be interesting to see. My hope is that Gip drops 10, gets some verticality, and develops a consistent ft line jumper.
The guard lineup still scares me. I have faith that a healthy Rodney will get better next year. I just don’t believe that sugar and spice are going to be an effective duo. Sugar is who he is - he’s gotten pushed around this year and I’m not a fan of Spice(at least I’m not a believer that Angel is the answer).
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The bigs are all interchangeable.
Yep.
Next year all depends on our guards improving, and under Frank I expect the majority of his players to improve if they stay around. No doubt a 11/12 win Big 12 season and solid NCAA team should be the expectation.
I get the bigs’ interchangeableness (I don’t even know if that’s a word), but then the question becomes can they be effective. Will a lineup w/ Gip and Diaz or JO and Diaz be effective, given the additional minute they’ll have to play? It will be interesting to see. My hope is that Gip drops 10, gets some verticality, and develops a consistent ft line jumper.
The guard lineup still scares me. I have faith that a healthy Rodney will get better next year. I just don’t believe that sugar and spice are going to be an effective duo. Sugar is who he is - he’s gotten pushed around this year and I’m not a fan of Spice(at least I’m not a believer that Angel is the answer).
We really need Upshaw to not be a bust, imo. If he can contribute solid minutes off the bench as a freshman, next year's team could be very good.
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We really need Jones to be available and good next year. That with a good off season w/ Angel should make all the diff in the world.
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The bigs are all interchangeable.
Yep.
Next year all depends on our guards improving, and under Frank I expect the majority of his players to improve if they stay around. No doubt a 11/12 win Big 12 season and solid NCAA team should be the expectation.
Given the number of upperclassmen on next year's team, my expectation is making the NCAA second weekend, or a good excuse why we didn't. (I.E., would accept an NCAA loss to a team that comes close to or makes the FF. Would not be very happy with another Wisconsin-ish loss. Not criticizing the past Wisconsin losses, just saying I expect more than that sort of 2nd-round loss next year.)
Perhaps some will say that's not reasonable given the personnel we have. Well, we should have better upperclass personnel in our coach's 6th year, then. It's not unreasonable to expect a team with so many juniors and seniors on it to be a strong contender to make the 2nd weekend.
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Given the number of upperclassmen on next year's team, my expectation is making the NCAA second weekend, or a good excuse why we didn't. (I.E., would accept an NCAA loss to a team that comes close to or makes the FF. Would not be very happy with another Wisconsin-ish loss. Not criticizing the past Wisconsin losses, just saying I expect more than that sort of 2nd-round loss next year.)
Perhaps some will say that's not reasonable given the personnel we have. Well, we should have better upperclass personnel in our coach's 6th year, then. It's not unreasonable to expect a team with so many juniors and seniors on it to be a strong contender to make the 2nd weekend.
I agree with all of that.
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The bigs are all interchangeable.
Yep.
Next year all depends on our guards improving, and under Frank I expect the majority of his players to improve if they stay around. No doubt a 11/12 win Big 12 season and solid NCAA team should be the expectation.
I get the bigs’ interchangeableness (I don’t even know if that’s a word), but then the question becomes can they be effective. Will a lineup w/ Gip and Diaz or JO and Diaz be effective, given the additional minute they’ll have to play? It will be interesting to see. My hope is that Gip drops 10, gets some verticality, and develops a consistent ft line jumper.
The guard lineup still scares me. I have faith that a healthy Rodney will get better next year. I just don’t believe that sugar and spice are going to be an effective duo. Sugar is who he is - he’s gotten pushed around this year and I’m not a fan of Spice(at least I’m not a believer that Angel is the answer).
Would love for gip to develop a fifteen foot jumper consistently. Maybe he should train with Zach Randolph over the summer. Same body type, position, etc.
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as awful as our guards looked last night I'm not really worried about them next year
Why?
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i'm glad last night helped separate the wheat from the chaff amongst teamar-ters. the wagon was a little crowded following a&m.
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i'm glad last night helped separate the wheat from the chaff amongst teamar-ters. the wagon was a little crowded following a&m.
I was art-ting like crazy today. Of anything last night did more to confirm my spot on #teamart-t than any other game, which many will think strange.
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I was art-ting like crazy today. Of anything last night did more to confirm my spot on #teamart-t than any other game, which many will think strange.
no one every thought you were chaff, _fan.
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as awful as our guards looked last night I'm not really worried about them next year
Why?
Why ask why? Why? Are you High? come on guy.
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It will probably depend how quickly Upshaw is able to step in and show he can give quality minutes. We could do what we are doing right now and give almost every single minute (4 and 5 spots) to a big.
Shane was seeing minutes at the 4 earlier in the year, but when he started to struggle, that basicly stopped. Diaz improving also played a factor.
Not sure what to expect from Jones next year. Gruds/Angel/Sprads are almost a lock to get lots of minutes at the 1-3 spots.
Tay, Shane and Jones all trying to find minutes backing up those 3 spots......... unless Shane gets some minutes at the 4
Thats 10 guys. Early in this season, we had 8 guys playing 15+ minutes with the 9th and 10th still seeing action in most games
IMO, Nino is a ways from being in that 10 man discussion. Would not be shocked if Watson is a goner. Not sure about Omari
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It will probably depend how quickly Upshaw is able to step in and show he can give quality minutes.
any quality minute from either of the freshmen bigs would be a surprise and a bonus.
i can see jones getting a lot of minutes, if he can improve his body and learn to play average defense (no reason why he couldn´t do both with a full year).
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Is angel going to have the impact/production that pullen or clemente had by the time he us a junior or senior? I don't believe he will. He might sneak into all big12 2nd team when he us a senior. Regardless, it's imperative that frank lands multiple combos in the '13 class or we'll just rinse and repeat this avoidable bullshit.
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It will probably depend how quickly Upshaw is able to step in and show he can give quality minutes.
any quality minute from either of the freshmen bigs would be a surprise and a bonus.
i can see jones getting a lot of minutes, if he can improve his body and learn to play average defense (no reason why he couldn´t do both with a full year).
I have to think that at least one of the bigs will have an impact similar to Gip/Diaz.
And I think Jones will play, I think he was starting to come around to Frank's expectations @OU but the injury put that on hold. Frank tried to throw him out there the next few games when he wasn't 100% and before they figured out he had a broken bone in his ankle and it wasn't just a sprain.
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Is angel going to have the impact/production that pullen or clemente had by the time he us a junior or senior? I don't believe he will.
I think there's a very good chance that he will. They're completely different players, but I don't think you realize how bad Clemente was as a freshman:
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/kansas-state/denis-clemente
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Is angel going to have the impact/production that pullen or clemente had by the time he us a junior or senior? I don't believe he will.
I think there's a very good chance that he will. They're completely different players, but I don't think you realize how bad Clemente was as a freshman:
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/kansas-state/denis-clemente
Love statsheet for stuff like this! (http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=jacob-pullen&denis-clemente=2005-2006&i=1&jacob-pullen=2007-2008&p1=denis-clemente&p2=angel-rodriguez)
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Forgot how average Jake's 3 point shooting was a freshman. I'd love some clips of a skinny freshman Denis running all over the place. Angel's to/assist rate is quite a bit higher.
If anything it show the drastic ability for improvement and reiterates how tough it is to find solid freshman PG.
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It will probably depend how quickly Upshaw is able to step in and show he can give quality minutes.
any quality minute from either of the freshmen bigs would be a surprise and a bonus.
i can see jones getting a lot of minutes, if he can improve his body and learn to play average defense (no reason why he couldn´t do both with a full year).
Having a four man big rotation kind of hurt us against Texas. Five additional fouls from either Moose or Upshaw probably would have helped a bit in that department.
Or not. But given our defensive philosophy, having at least five guys playing in the paint will be a big deal.
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I remember being very :curse: at Jake alot his FR year. Angel will be fine
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Is angel going to have the impact/production that pullen or clemente had by the time he us a junior or senior? I don't believe he will.
I think there's a very good chance that he will. They're completely different players, but I don't think you realize how bad Clemente was as a freshman:
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/kansas-state/denis-clemente
Love statsheet for stuff like this! (http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=jacob-pullen&denis-clemente=2005-2006&i=1&jacob-pullen=2007-2008&p1=denis-clemente&p2=angel-rodriguez)
compelling,,,, but I've gone too far. there's no turning back. as a wise man once said, i've burned my ships and crossed the rubicon.
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Our retardiest fans hated the crap out of Denis all the way through his Jr. season with us and some way into his Sr.
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So, this year is over (<---this is just a cheapshot, not the point of the post, just let it go). Looking ahead to next year:
1 – angel / jones / Sprads
2 – Sprads / Tay / jones
3 – McGruds / South
4 - ? / Nino? Watson?
5 – Gip / Diaz / JO / Upshaw / Euro
questions:
Who’s at the 4 spot? I guess this is where Watson might not get Frank’d? Nino is just awful, imo. His really needed some PT this year to help his development. I suppose Gip or Euro could be at the 4. I suppose Frank could just go big, although I’m not found of that.
Will our guards be enough? I dunno. They aren't this year.
’13, somehow someway, better include 2 top150-ish guards. If somehow this staff coud pull a rabbit out of a hat for this class and get a top 150-ish guard then frank watson and omari. I’m also kinda terrified of ’13 if Gip doesn’t develop into something special. Angel will be better by then, but I don’t think he’s going to provide the scoring needed. I don’t know where our scoring will come from then.
Traditional numbering doesn't really mean alot to Frank's lineups. Simply a collection of guards and forwards.
Gip, Diaz, JO and Upshaw should get most of the run down low with some Nino mixed in (not counting on Moose next year - no show, charter school or RS IMO). Same group as this year will be at the guard spots. Could see Jones getting Frank'd if a mys-tran becomes available tho...
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We are going to miss the crap out of Jamar
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compelling,,,, but I've gone too far. there's no turning back. as a wise man once said, i've burned my ships and crossed the rubicon.
Uhm, don't blend motivational stories like that please. Thanks.
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We are going to miss the crap out of good Jamar.
Good Jamar will be missed. Bad Jamar can be replaced pretty easily. Was hoping for more consistency during this his RS Sr. year.
Love, love, love me some Jamar...but the double fouls, off-ball fouls and contortionist flops against bigger posts still leave me shaking my head sometimes.
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Our retardiest fans hated the crap out of Denis all the way through his Jr. season with us and some way into his Sr.
count me in this group. a very frustrating player to watch for clams. i came around though, in the elite 8.
Is angel going to have the impact/production that pullen or clemente had by the time he us a junior or senior? I don't believe he will.
a guard is only going to be as good as the players around him. angel doesn't have what clemsies and pullsies had, and won't.
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We are going to miss the crap out of good Jamar.
Good Jamar will be missed. Bad Jamar can be replaced pretty easily. Was hoping for more consistency during this his RS Sr. year.
Love, love, love me some Jamar...but the double fouls, off-ball fouls and contortionist flops against bigger posts still leave me shaking my head sometimes.
Jamar does very important crap that most of our fanbase doesn't see because they are watching the ball get passed around the perimeter.
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Jamar = good defensive efficiency for the team
Jamar = good OR% for the team
Jamar = FTR for the team
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Our retardiest fans hated the crap out of Denis all the way through his Jr. season with us and some way into his Sr.
count me in this group. a very frustrating player to watch for clams. i came around though, in the elite 8.
Is angel going to have the impact/production that pullen or clemente had by the time he us a junior or senior? I don't believe he will.
a guard is only going to be as good as the players around him. angel doesn't have what clemsies and pullsies had, and won't.
this is kind of why I'm not regretting crossing the rubicon. not only will angel not have pullen/clemente around him, he won't have 5* curtis kelly floppn' around down low. maybe upshaw is the
real deal (<---I kind of like this name for him - Robert the Real Deal Upshaw).
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Jamar does very important crap that most of our fanbase doesn't see because they are watching the ball get passed around the perimeter.
That pretty much says it all right there, man.
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Our retardiest fans hated the crap out of Denis all the way through his Jr. season with us and some way into his Sr.
count me in this group. a very frustrating player to watch for clams. i came around though, in the elite 8.
Is angel going to have the impact/production that pullen or clemente had by the time he us a junior or senior? I don't believe he will.
a guard is only going to be as good as the players around him. angel doesn't have what clemsies and pullsies had, and won't.
this is kind of why I'm not regretting crossing the rubicon. not only will angel not have pullen/clemente around him, he won't have 5* curtis kelly floppn' around down low. maybe upshaw is the
real deal (<---I kind of like this name for him - Robert the Real Deal Upshaw).
I think you guys just made up a talking point that doesn't have much basis in reality. Yeah, life is easier when you're playing with Michael Beasley and Bill Walker as a freshman, but that doesn't make you the best you'll ever be.
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Is angel going to have the impact/production that pullen or clemente had by the time he us a junior or senior? I don't believe he will.
I think there's a very good chance that he will. They're completely different players, but I don't think you realize how bad Clemente was as a freshman:
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/kansas-state/denis-clemente
Love statsheet for stuff like this! (http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=jacob-pullen&denis-clemente=2005-2006&i=1&jacob-pullen=2007-2008&p1=denis-clemente&p2=angel-rodriguez)
compelling,,,, but I've gone too far. there's no turning back. as a wise man once said, i've burned my ships and crossed the rubicon.
Wouldn't it be hard to cross the Rubicon if you burn your ships first?
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Our retardiest fans hated the crap out of Denis all the way through his Jr. season with us and some way into his Sr.
count me in this group. a very frustrating player to watch for clams. i came around though, in the elite 8.
Is angel going to have the impact/production that pullen or clemente had by the time he us a junior or senior? I don't believe he will.
a guard is only going to be as good as the players around him. angel doesn't have what clemsies and pullsies had, and won't.
this is kind of why I'm not regretting crossing the rubicon. not only will angel not have pullen/clemente around him, he won't have 5* curtis kelly floppn' around down low. maybe upshaw is the
real deal (<---I kind of like this name for him - Robert the Real Deal Upshaw).
I think you guys just made up a talking point that doesn't have much basis in reality. Yeah, life is easier when you're playing with Michael Beasley and Bill Walker as a freshman, but that doesn't make you the best you'll ever be.
no i didn't make up a talking point.
guards are more dependent upon the guards they share their offense with, as well as the bigs on their team more so than bigs are reliant on anyone else.
go play contra if you want to be mr contra so much.
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I can see Upshaw/Gip/Diaz being comparable to CK/Jamar/LuCo.
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Is angel going to have the impact/production that pullen or clemente had by the time he us a junior or senior? I don't believe he will.
I think there's a very good chance that he will. They're completely different players, but I don't think you realize how bad Clemente was as a freshman:
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/kansas-state/denis-clemente
Love statsheet for stuff like this! (http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=jacob-pullen&denis-clemente=2005-2006&i=1&jacob-pullen=2007-2008&p1=denis-clemente&p2=angel-rodriguez)
compelling,,,, but I've gone too far. there's no turning back. as a wise man once said, i've burned my ships and crossed the rubicon.
Wouldn't it be hard to cross the Rubicon if you burn your ships first?
Not necessarily.
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.motofoto.cc%2FDSC_4564.jpg&hash=fe6a9e0f105a450a29caf8ecc62d760d26b3ba25)
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Is angel going to have the impact/production that pullen or clemente had by the time he us a junior or senior? I don't believe he will.
I think there's a very good chance that he will. They're completely different players, but I don't think you realize how bad Clemente was as a freshman:
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/kansas-state/denis-clemente
Love statsheet for stuff like this! (http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=jacob-pullen&denis-clemente=2005-2006&i=1&jacob-pullen=2007-2008&p1=denis-clemente&p2=angel-rodriguez)
compelling,,,, but I've gone too far. there's no turning back. as a wise man once said, i've burned my ships and crossed the rubicon.
Wouldn't it be hard to cross the Rubicon if you burn your ships first?
when you're in pursuit of perfection, everything is hard.
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I can see Upshaw/Gip/Diaz being comparable to CK/Jamar/LuCo.
now compare the guards. okie dokie, we're done. next!
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when you're in pursuit of perfection, everything is hard.
:sdeek:
(https://goemaw.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi133.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq45%2Fkougar24%2FKState%2Fprince-hat-cattle-front.png&hash=f2f29179a823adf9b1c5065e4fb4a473749ef359)
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I can see Upshaw/Gip/Diaz being comparable to CK/Jamar/LuCo.
now compare the guards. okie dokie, we're done. next!
Last year Pullen had Sprads and Tay. Freshman year he had Clent. :dunno:
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clent was 10x better than anything around sprads today.
sprads was good when he had the program's leader scorer next to him.
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i'm glad last night helped separate the wheat from the chaff amongst teamar-ters. the wagon was a little crowded following a&m.
I was art-ting like crazy today. Of anything last night did more to confirm my spot on #teamart-t than any other game, which many will think strange.
Oh man, me too. Love how everyone approached me Tuesday and today all like "Oh man Stevesie, you look like such an idiot for reppin' Angel all season. He was AWFUL against KU!" Then I tore them apart.
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I can see Upshaw/Gip/Diaz being comparable to CK/Jamar/LuCo.
What year??? Next? and are you comparing them in production of Freshmen/Sophomores to Juniors/senior , because i can see that but I believe the young-ins are way more talented but not ready mentally
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I think Angel compares better to Jose Juan Barea, if you adjust for competition and minutes played? :dunno:
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=jacob-pullen&denis-clemente=2005-2006&i=1&jacob-pullen=2007-2008&jose-juan-barea=2002-2003&p1=denis-clemente&p2=angel-rodriguez&p3=jose-juan-barea
JJ and angle are both so aggressive and have weirdly high rebounds per game and have high FT Rates