Author Topic: The Trump Candidacy (Read 442717 times)

Rage Against the McKee · « **Reply #2300 on:** March 31, 2016, 09:14:12 AM »

It wasn't a trap question. If you think something should be illegal, then you should at least have some idea of what you think the punishment should be.

catastrophe · « **Reply #2301 on:** March 31, 2016, 09:28:17 AM »

Quote from: 8manpick on March 31, 2016, 08:57:13 AM

Why are people up in arms about Trump's abortion comments? If you want to make abortion illegal (a crime) isn't the natural progression to punish those who commit that crime? Weird thing to be outraged about.

Honestly I'm a bit surprised by the backlash as well, but it must have been fierce for Trump to actually back off for once. Especially if Trump felt he was loosing the incredible amount of good will he had built up for the ladies who love him for how much respect he has for them.

MakeItRain · « **Reply #2302 on:** March 31, 2016, 09:36:47 AM »

Quote from: catastrophe on March 31, 2016, 09:28:17 AM

Quote from: 8manpick on March 31, 2016, 08:57:13 AM
Why are people up in arms about Trump's abortion comments? If you want to make abortion illegal (a crime) isn't the natural progression to punish those who commit that crime? Weird thing to be outraged about.

Honestly I'm a bit surprised by the backlash as well, but it must have been fierce for Trump to actually back off for once. Especially if Trump felt he was loosing the incredible amount of good will he had built up for the ladies who love him for how much respect he has for them.

Seriously guys? Even Katrina Pierson figured this out. There was backlash because if someone is committing a crime in this instance it's the doctor actually performing the procedure. If he would have said that he wouldn't have spooked the pro-life people.

Rage Against the McKee · « **Reply #2303 on:** March 31, 2016, 09:40:24 AM »

Quote from: MakeItRain on March 31, 2016, 09:36:47 AM

Quote from: catastrophe on March 31, 2016, 09:28:17 AM
Quote from: 8manpick on March 31, 2016, 08:57:13 AM
Why are people up in arms about Trump's abortion comments? If you want to make abortion illegal (a crime) isn't the natural progression to punish those who commit that crime? Weird thing to be outraged about.

Honestly I'm a bit surprised by the backlash as well, but it must have been fierce for Trump to actually back off for once. Especially if Trump felt he was loosing the incredible amount of good will he had built up for the ladies who love him for how much respect he has for them.

Seriously guys? Even Katrina Pierson figured this out. There was backlash because if someone is committing a crime in this instance it's the doctor actually performing the procedure. If he would have said that he wouldn't have spooked the pro-life people.

Isn't that sort of like saying if you hire a hitman, then only the hitman should get punished?

MakeItRain · « **Reply #2304 on:** March 31, 2016, 09:44:11 AM »

Quote from: Rage Against the McKee on March 31, 2016, 09:40:24 AM

Quote from: MakeItRain on March 31, 2016, 09:36:47 AM
Quote from: catastrophe on March 31, 2016, 09:28:17 AM
Quote from: 8manpick on March 31, 2016, 08:57:13 AM
Why are people up in arms about Trump's abortion comments? If you want to make abortion illegal (a crime) isn't the natural progression to punish those who commit that crime? Weird thing to be outraged about.

Honestly I'm a bit surprised by the backlash as well, but it must have been fierce for Trump to actually back off for once. Especially if Trump felt he was loosing the incredible amount of good will he had built up for the ladies who love him for how much respect he has for them.

Seriously guys? Even Katrina Pierson figured this out. There was backlash because if someone is committing a crime in this instance it's the doctor actually performing the procedure. If he would have said that he wouldn't have spooked the pro-life people.

Isn't that sort of like saying if you hire a hitman, then only the hitman should get punished?

No it isn't like that at all, unless we start licencing hitmen. The better example is in states where doctor assisted suicide isn't legal who do you think would get charged in a botched suicide? Did any of the family members of the people Dr. Kevorkian killed get charged?

8manpick · « **Reply #2305 on:** March 31, 2016, 09:48:38 AM »

I don't think abortion should be a crime, BUT IF IT WAS, then not not punishing the woman who gets an abortion is logically incongruent.

MakeItRain · « **Reply #2306 on:** March 31, 2016, 09:51:26 AM »

Quote from: 8manpick on March 31, 2016, 09:48:38 AM

I don't think abortion should be a crime, BUT IF IT WAS, then not not punishing the woman who gets an abortion is logically incongruent.

How's that, they aren't giving themselves the procedure. It is currently illegal for a woman to intentionally harm their fetus.

8manpick · « **Reply #2307 on:** March 31, 2016, 09:56:17 AM »

Quote from: MakeItRain on March 31, 2016, 09:51:26 AM

Quote from: 8manpick on March 31, 2016, 09:48:38 AM
I don't think abortion should be a crime, BUT IF IT WAS, then not not punishing the woman who gets an abortion is logically incongruent.

How's that, they aren't giving themselves the procedure. It is currently illegal for a woman to intentionally harm their fetus.

If a pregnant woman was just walking down the street, and a doctor hit her with an abortion ray, then I see your point.

The getaway driver is still charged in a bank robbery. Maybe more analogous, the person who hired the bank robbers gets charged.

catastrophe · « **Reply #2308 on:** March 31, 2016, 09:56:28 AM »

Well you know there is such a thing as conspiracy to commit a crime. If you are offering a doctor money to do something you both know is illegal you seem to fall in that category.

star seed 7 · « **Reply #2309 on:** March 31, 2016, 10:08:24 AM »

I see no reason why there wouldn't be punishment for the woman, but I can certainly see why the anti-abortion crowd would hate that narrative

MakeItRain · « **Reply #2310 on:** March 31, 2016, 10:09:28 AM »

In all of your examples the co-conspirators are not paid, licenced professionals providing a service.

8manpick · « **Reply #2311 on:** March 31, 2016, 10:16:05 AM »

Quote from: MakeItRain on March 31, 2016, 10:09:28 AM

In all of your examples the co-conspirators are not paid, licenced professionals providing a service.

In the scenario where abortion is illegal, there are no licenses to perform abortions

star seed 7 · « **Reply #2312 on:** March 31, 2016, 10:19:18 AM »

Quote from: 8manpick on March 31, 2016, 10:16:05 AM

Quote from: MakeItRain on March 31, 2016, 10:09:28 AM
In all of your examples the co-conspirators are not paid, licenced professionals providing a service.

In the scenario where abortion is illegal, there are no licenses to perform abortions

I think this is the part mir is getting lost on

It would likely be a dealer/user situation where the user is generally left alone, but using is still punishable if they want.

catastrophe · « **Reply #2313 on:** March 31, 2016, 10:28:59 AM »

Right, and then what do you do if women try to perform abortions on themselves. Surely you'd want to discourage that. I can't believe one of the least ridiculous things I've heard Trump say is actually the only thing he's backpedalled on.

MakeItRain · « **Reply #2314 on:** March 31, 2016, 10:38:06 AM »

Quote from: catastrophe on March 31, 2016, 10:28:59 AM

Right, and then what do you do if women try to perform abortions on themselves. Surely you'd want to discourage that. I can't believe one of the least ridiculous things I've heard Trump say is actually the only thing he's backpedalled on.

That's already illegal, not sure of the point.

catastrophe · « **Reply #2315 on:** March 31, 2016, 10:43:23 AM »

Already illegal because they're not licensed. That's the point.

DQ12 · « **Reply #2316 on:** March 31, 2016, 11:58:04 AM »

Count me in the camp that is a little confused by this too. Participating in, or paying someone to commit a crime, any crime, should be punishable.

sys · « **Reply #2317 on:** March 31, 2016, 12:00:44 PM »

yes, punishing the woman is logically consistent. it's also politically unpalatable. just like every 'pubs rape & incest exemption is logically inconsistent but is a requisite for getting elected.

catastrophe · « **Reply #2318 on:** March 31, 2016, 12:13:08 PM »

Quote from: sys on March 31, 2016, 12:00:44 PM

just like every 'pubs rape & incest exemption is logically inconsistent but is a requisite for getting elected.

I know we're off topic now, but I disagree that the rape talking point is logically inconsistent. Pregnancy does put a lot of strain on the body and can even (rarely) give rise to life-threatening circumstances. If you consent to sex you are assuming those remote risks. However, if it's completely involuntary it makes sense to allow an abortion as a type of "self defense" provided you do so early enough that the abortion itself isn't just as threatening to your health.

The incest thing (assuming no rape) makes no sense as an exception, IMO. Most people don't want to go down the road of saying you can have an abortion if the baby is likely to be born with defects.

sys · « **Reply #2319 on:** March 31, 2016, 12:22:29 PM »

if you believe that abortion is the murder of a living human being, then it is not logically consistent that it is ok to murder that human merely because a crime was committed against it's mother or because it's mother may be physically inconvenienced or compromised by carrying it. the health of the mother exemption is not inconsistent and would still allow remedy if a health complication developed.

i wonder how far away it is from it being medically feasible to harvest an embryo and implant it in a surrogate in the case of rape? could it be done now, if there was demand?

Rage Against the McKee · « **Reply #2320 on:** March 31, 2016, 01:21:45 PM »

The way the interview came off to me, punishment isn't really something Trump had given any thought to, so he just said the thing that makes the most sense.

sys · « **Reply #2321 on:** March 31, 2016, 01:22:41 PM »

Quote from: Rage Against the McKee on March 31, 2016, 01:21:45 PM

The way the interview came off to me, punishment isn't really something Trump had given any thought to, so he just said the thing that makes the most sense.

very obviously, the issue is something he has not given much thought to.

Dugout DickStone · « **Reply #2322 on:** March 31, 2016, 01:27:10 PM »

Quote from: sys on March 31, 2016, 12:22:29 PM

if you believe that abortion is the murder of a living human being, then it is not logically consistent that it is ok to murder that human merely because a crime was committed against it's mother or because it's mother may be physically inconvenienced or compromised by carrying it. the health of the mother exemption is not inconsistent and would still allow remedy if a health complication developed.

i wonder how far away it is from it being medically feasible to harvest an embryo and implant it in a surrogate in the case of rape? could it be done now, if there was demand?

That is actually a crazy interesting scenario.

Rage Against the McKee · « **Reply #2323 on:** March 31, 2016, 01:28:28 PM »

I doubt there is a lot of demand for rapist DNA, but if the government paid for the procedure, you'd probably get some takers.

K-S-U-Wildcats! · « **Reply #2324 on:** March 31, 2016, 01:44:52 PM »

Quote from: MakeItRain on March 31, 2016, 09:51:26 AM

Quote from: 8manpick on March 31, 2016, 09:48:38 AM
I don't think abortion should be a crime, BUT IF IT WAS, then not not punishing the woman who gets an abortion is logically incongruent.

How's that, they aren't giving themselves the procedure. It is currently illegal for a woman to intentionally harm their fetus.

Thank you for highlighting the absurd incongruence of our current laws. Most states criminalize self-inflicted abortion (though it rarely charged), but it's perfectly legal in most states and in fact constitutionally protected for a state-licensed physician to perform most abortions. It it's legal for a doctor to do it, why can't a woman do it? What ever happened to "my body my choice"?