Arrested Development

[pissclams]

Arrested Development
A ku fan over on the Scout network made the point to me the other day in a post that Bill Self was not only a great recruiter, but a good coach as well.  Self develops his players I was told.  When his example of how much better Sasha Kaun has gotten unde Self, I had to look closer.   Magic Wright is about the only player on ku's roster who shows a consistent pattern of improvement (even though it's as little as it is).  For a lot of players under Self, their key stats have actually grown worse year over year.  Pretty impressive job developing his guys. 

Anyways, the numbers don't lie, enjoy:

-Player-	-MPG-	-PPG-	-PPM-	-RPG-	-RPM-	-APG-	-APM-	-TO-	-TPM-	-FG%-
Rus Rob Fr.	10.0	3.5	.35	0.7	.007	1.0	.10	1.3	.13	.412%
Rus Rob So.	28.0	9.3	.33	3.1	.110	4.6	.16	2.2	.07	.371%
Rus Rob Jr.	28.3	6.6	.23	3.3	.110	4.7	.16	2.0	.07	.423%

-Player-	-MPG-	-PPG-	-PPM-	-RPG-	-RPM-	-APG-	-APM-	-TO-	-TPM-	-FG%-
Chalmers Fr.	26.0	11.5	.44	2.2	.084	3.8	.14	2.8	.10	.445%
Chalmers So.	28.0	11.8	.42	3.3	.11	3.2	.11	2.2	.07	.473%

-Player-	-MPG-	-PPG-	-PPM-	-RPG-	-RPM-	-APG-	-APM-	-TO-	-TPM-	-FG%-
Rush Fr.	31.7	13.5	.42	5.9	.186	2	.06	2.5	.07	.474%
Rush So.	32.0	13.7	.42	5.7	.170	1.8	.05	2.0	.06	.429%

-Player-	-MPG-	-PPG-	-PPM-	-RPG-	-RPM-	-APG-	-APM-	-TO-	-TPM-	-FG%-
Kaun Fr.	10.0	2.6	.26	2.3	.23	.1	.01	.8	.08	.536%
Kaun So.	19.3	8.2	.42	5.3	.27	.4	.02	.7	.03	.562%
Kaun Jr.	17.3	6.4	.36	4.0	.23	.4	.02	1.1	.06	.556%

-Player-	-MPG-	-PPG-	-PPM-	-RPG-	-RPM-	-APG-	-APM-	-TO-	-TPM-	-FG%-
Wright Fr.	20.1	8.5	.42	4.6	.22	1.8	.08	1.9	.09	.564%
Wright So.	27.4	11.8	.43	8.0	.29	2.2	.08	2.5	.09	.547%

-Player-	-MPG-	-PPG-	-PPM-	-RPG-	-RPM-	-APG-	-APM-	-TO-	-TPM-	-FG%-
Case Fr.	LOL!	LOL!	LOL!	LOL!	LOL!	LOL!	LOL!	LOL!	LOL!	LOL!
Case So.	LOL!	LOL!	LOL!	LOL!	LOL!	LOL!	LOL!	LOL!	LOL!	LOL!
Case Jr.	LOL!	LOL!	LOL!	LOL!	LOL!	LOL!	LOL!	LOL!	LOL!	LOL!

[WildCatzPhreak]

LOL! @ ku fans thinking players develop under self.  If anything, they get worse the longer they play under him.

[tmramrod91]

Thats why they get bailed out by freshman consistently. I can only hope collins goes on a downslide like the rest of the players.

[WildCatzPhreak]

It'd be scary to see what a coach who knows how to develop players could do with ku's talent.

Can you imagine Bob Knight with that roster?

Jesus.

[Super Nintendo Chalmers]

It looks like for the most part he improved their "Minutes per game" 

[fatty fat fat]

Nice post, thx

[chum1]

WTF, DUDE?

[BooyahKU]

this is the kind of shlt that happens when you keep adding more blue chippers.  sorry.

[WildCatzPhreak]

this is the kind of shlt that happens when you keep adding more blue chippers.  sorry.

the performance of the existing blue chippers goes down despite more minutes because of new blue chippers?

my basketball iq obviously isn't high enough to grasp that concept.

[Dan Rydell]

If you honestly consider yourself an early NBA prospect, going to ku has to be one of the worst career decisions you can make.

#1:  You're not gonna develop under Self's staff.  You're just going to maintain or perhaps get worse.
#2:  You're not gonna put up tremendous stats, because there's too much talent around you, also trying to go league early.  In fact, you may not get much playing time at all.
#3:  You're not gonna improve your draft status any, because of #1 and #2.  In fact, it will probably get worse.

This is why Darrell Arthur has realized that perhaps the worst decision of his life was to go to ku instead of Baylor.  At Baylor, we'd be talking about him challenging Durant for Big XII player of the year.  Instead, we're talking about how he's getting some nice minutes.

If you're wanting to go to the NBA early, you wanna be a big fish in a medium pond...not a little fish in a big pond.

[ksu_FAN]

The Hawk-spin on this should be fun.

[michigancat]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/martike01.html

Code: [Select]

Year College   |  G   MP   FG  FGA  3P 3PA   FT  FTA  TRB  AST STL BLK  TO  PF  PTS| FG% 3P% FT%| MP  TRB  AST  PTS|
+---------------+---+----+----+----+---+---+----+----+----+----+---+---+---+---+----+----+---+---+---+----+----+----+
 1997 cincy     | 22  233   26   40   0   0   10   32   74   10  14  24  16  51   62|  65      31| 11  3.4  0.5  2.8|
 1998 cincy     | 30  858  124  198   0   1   50  105  267   41  30  83  62 109  298|  63   0  48| 29  8.9  1.4  9.9|
 1999 cincy     | 33  900  142  248   0   1   50   89  228   49  37  78  67 109  334|  57   0  56| 27  6.9  1.5 10.1|
 2000 cincy     | 31  909  221  389   2   7  141  206  300   42  43 107  56  71  585|  57  29  68| 29  9.7  1.4 18.9|

[cireksu]

i'll never understand how they got it in there heads that Self is some great player developer.  Name one player that he molded into a true star as a coach?

[1992]

Didn't Sasha Kahn not even start to play BB until he was a Jr. or Sr. in High School???  Hell, of course he should improve...even if his college coach were Tom Asbury.

A devil's advocate might ask about Jason Bennett's development under Sir Huggins.  Boo.

[michigancat]

A devil's advocate might ask about Jason Bennett's development under Sir Huggins.  Boo.

That would work better a year from now.

[pissclams]

Before bring up Jason Bennett, a devil's advocate would know Bennett's numbers are better than Kaun's were when comparing both player's freshman seasons.


The key takeaway here is that not only are Self's players not developing, they're actually getting worse.  That's a beautiful thing.

[1992]

Before bring up Jason Bennett, a devil's advocate would know Bennett's numbers are better than Kaun's were when comparing both player's freshman seasons.


The key takeaway here is that not only are Self's players not developing, they're actually getting worse.  That's a beautiful thing.

Are we talking about player progress / development?  Or are we simply comparing the freshman stats of players?

And, yes, I would agree that a year from now would be a better time to ask about Bennett's development...but since it is not next year yet, would you say that JB has made progress - or regressed - since the beginning of b12 play?

[michigancat]

He's been steady.

[coitus]

kent was a perfect dead eye assassin under wooly, but a woeful stone mason under huggins.

[DrunkoMcGee]

If you honestly consider yourself an early NBA prospect, going to ku has to be one of the worst career decisions you can make.

#1:  You're not gonna develop under Self's staff.  You're just going to maintain or perhaps get worse.
#2:  You're not gonna put up tremendous stats, because there's too much talent around you, also trying to go league early.  In fact, you may not get much playing time at all.
#3:  You're not gonna improve your draft status any, because of #1 and #2.  In fact, it will probably get worse.

This is why Darrell Arthur has realized that perhaps the worst decision of his life was to go to ku instead of Baylor.  At Baylor, we'd be talking about him challenging Durant for Big XII player of the year.  Instead, we're talking about how he's getting some nice minutes.

If you're wanting to go to the NBA early, you wanna be a big fish in a medium pond...not a little fish in a big pond.

Despite what you KSU fans like to think and say, the blue chippers keep right on showing up and Bill Self has won 78% of his games while at Kansas.  This whole thread is sour grapes.  If emoticons weren't so ridiculous and stupid, I would use that popcorn one you like so much.

You guys should get back to talking about how bad a coach you think Rick Barnes is and the cultural benefits of throwing live chickens onto a basketball court. 

[michigancat]

If you honestly consider yourself an early NBA prospect, going to ku has to be one of the worst career decisions you can make.

#1:  You're not gonna develop under Self's staff.  You're just going to maintain or perhaps get worse.
#2:  You're not gonna put up tremendous stats, because there's too much talent around you, also trying to go league early.  In fact, you may not get much playing time at all.
#3:  You're not gonna improve your draft status any, because of #1 and #2.  In fact, it will probably get worse.

This is why Darrell Arthur has realized that perhaps the worst decision of his life was to go to ku instead of Baylor.  At Baylor, we'd be talking about him challenging Durant for Big XII player of the year.  Instead, we're talking about how he's getting some nice minutes.

If you're wanting to go to the NBA early, you wanna be a big fish in a medium pond...not a little fish in a big pond.

Despite what you KSU fans like to think and say, the blue chippers keep right on showing up and Bill Self has won 78% of his games while at Kansas.  This whole thread is sour grapes.  If emoticons weren't so ridiculous and stupid, I would use that popcorn one you like so much.

You guys should get back to talking about how bad a coach you think Rick Barnes is and the cultural benefits of throwing live chickens onto a basketball court. 

Cole Aldrich and Tyrel Reed are not "blue chippers".

[WildCatzPhreak]

If you honestly consider yourself an early NBA prospect, going to ku has to be one of the worst career decisions you can make.

#1:  You're not gonna develop under Self's staff.  You're just going to maintain or perhaps get worse.
#2:  You're not gonna put up tremendous stats, because there's too much talent around you, also trying to go league early.  In fact, you may not get much playing time at all.
#3:  You're not gonna improve your draft status any, because of #1 and #2.  In fact, it will probably get worse.

This is why Darrell Arthur has realized that perhaps the worst decision of his life was to go to ku instead of Baylor.  At Baylor, we'd be talking about him challenging Durant for Big XII player of the year.  Instead, we're talking about how he's getting some nice minutes.

If you're wanting to go to the NBA early, you wanna be a big fish in a medium pond...not a little fish in a big pond.

Despite what you KSU fans like to think and say, the blue chippers keep right on showing up and Bill Self has won 78% of his games while at Kansas.  This whole thread is sour grapes.  If emoticons weren't so ridiculous and stupid, I would use that popcorn one you like so much.

You guys should get back to talking about how bad a coach you think Rick Barnes is and the cultural benefits of throwing live chickens onto a basketball court. 

Cole Aldrich and Tyrel Reed are not "blue chippers".

Shhh.

Let him think that a 4 star center from Minnesota and a 3 star guard from kansas are elite prospects.

[DrunkoMcGee]

If you honestly consider yourself an early NBA prospect, going to ku has to be one of the worst career decisions you can make.

#1:  You're not gonna develop under Self's staff.  You're just going to maintain or perhaps get worse.
#2:  You're not gonna put up tremendous stats, because there's too much talent around you, also trying to go league early.  In fact, you may not get much playing time at all.
#3:  You're not gonna improve your draft status any, because of #1 and #2.  In fact, it will probably get worse.

This is why Darrell Arthur has realized that perhaps the worst decision of his life was to go to ku instead of Baylor.  At Baylor, we'd be talking about him challenging Durant for Big XII player of the year.  Instead, we're talking about how he's getting some nice minutes.

If you're wanting to go to the NBA early, you wanna be a big fish in a medium pond...not a little fish in a big pond.

Despite what you KSU fans like to think and say, the blue chippers keep right on showing up and Bill Self has won 78% of his games while at Kansas.  This whole thread is sour grapes.  If emoticons weren't so ridiculous and stupid, I would use that popcorn one you like so much.

You guys should get back to talking about how bad a coach you think Rick Barnes is and the cultural benefits of throwing live chickens onto a basketball court. 

Cole Aldrich and Tyrel Reed are not "blue chippers".

Shhh.

Let him think that a 4 star center from Minnesota and a 3 star guard from kansas are elite prospects.

You guys need to get off of Fitz's junk and stop using stars to rate players.  When the final RSCI comes out, Cole will be top 25.  Reed will be right around top 70.  Of course, Reed will be the 5th or 6th guard in the rotation next year and was also recruited by the likes of UNC and Georgia Tech.

[WildCatzPhreak]

Fitz doesn't rate or rank players.

Thanks for stopping by though.

[michigancat]

If you honestly consider yourself an early NBA prospect, going to ku has to be one of the worst career decisions you can make.

#1:  You're not gonna develop under Self's staff.  You're just going to maintain or perhaps get worse.
#2:  You're not gonna put up tremendous stats, because there's too much talent around you, also trying to go league early.  In fact, you may not get much playing time at all.
#3:  You're not gonna improve your draft status any, because of #1 and #2.  In fact, it will probably get worse.

This is why Darrell Arthur has realized that perhaps the worst decision of his life was to go to ku instead of Baylor.  At Baylor, we'd be talking about him challenging Durant for Big XII player of the year.  Instead, we're talking about how he's getting some nice minutes.

If you're wanting to go to the NBA early, you wanna be a big fish in a medium pond...not a little fish in a big pond.

Despite what you KSU fans like to think and say, the blue chippers keep right on showing up and Bill Self has won 78% of his games while at Kansas.  This whole thread is sour grapes.  If emoticons weren't so ridiculous and stupid, I would use that popcorn one you like so much.

You guys should get back to talking about how bad a coach you think Rick Barnes is and the cultural benefits of throwing live chickens onto a basketball court. 

Cole Aldrich and Tyrel Reed are not "blue chippers".

Shhh.

Let him think that a 4 star center from Minnesota and a 3 star guard from kansas are elite prospects.

You guys need to get off of Fitz's junk and stop using stars to rate players.  When the final RSCI comes out, Cole will be top 25.  Reed will be right around top 70.  Of course, Reed will be the 5th or 6th guard in the rotation next year and was also recruited by the likes of UNC and Georgia Tech.

Still not blue chippers.  And as more and more "blue chippers" see their draft stock plummet under Self (Wright, Rush, Arthur), future stars will take note.

Y'all had a nice little run.  You'll be praying for Roy-esque recruiting in no time.

[AzCat]

... would you say that JB has made progress - or regressed - since the beginning of b12 play?

He was significantly better against Okie Lite than at any time this year.  More often than not he was in position and actually watching the player with the ball, for him that's major improvement.  There's no comparison at all between his level of play now and at the beginning of the year.

[DrunkoMcGee]

Fitz doesn't rate or rank players.

Thanks for stopping by though.

Only people obessed with the Rivals rating system for football talk about the star rating of a recruit.  I know you guys are new to basketball recruiting and caring, but some of you need to learn about what is important to look at and where to find good information.

And by the way, Reed is a "4 star" so you can't even get your flame right.

[pissclams]

If you honestly consider yourself an early NBA prospect, going to ku has to be one of the worst career decisions you can make.

#1:  You're not gonna develop under Self's staff.  You're just going to maintain or perhaps get worse.
#2:  You're not gonna put up tremendous stats, because there's too much talent around you, also trying to go league early.  In fact, you may not get much playing time at all.
#3:  You're not gonna improve your draft status any, because of #1 and #2.  In fact, it will probably get worse.

This is why Darrell Arthur has realized that perhaps the worst decision of his life was to go to ku instead of Baylor.  At Baylor, we'd be talking about him challenging Durant for Big XII player of the year.  Instead, we're talking about how he's getting some nice minutes.

If you're wanting to go to the NBA early, you wanna be a big fish in a medium pond...not a little fish in a big pond.

Despite what you KSU fans like to think and say, the blue chippers keep right on showing up and Bill Self has won 78% of his games while at Kansas.  This whole thread is sour grapes.  If emoticons weren't so ridiculous and stupid, I would use that popcorn one you like so much.

You guys should get back to talking about how bad a coach you think Rick Barnes is and the cultural benefits of throwing live chickens onto a basketball court. 

Sour grapes? WTF! 
They're not fruit, they're facts.
I'm waiting for your interpretation of the stats above, pay special attention to the red ones.
TIA!

[DrunkoMcGee]

If you honestly consider yourself an early NBA prospect, going to ku has to be one of the worst career decisions you can make.

#1:  You're not gonna develop under Self's staff.  You're just going to maintain or perhaps get worse.
#2:  You're not gonna put up tremendous stats, because there's too much talent around you, also trying to go league early.  In fact, you may not get much playing time at all.
#3:  You're not gonna improve your draft status any, because of #1 and #2.  In fact, it will probably get worse.

This is why Darrell Arthur has realized that perhaps the worst decision of his life was to go to ku instead of Baylor.  At Baylor, we'd be talking about him challenging Durant for Big XII player of the year.  Instead, we're talking about how he's getting some nice minutes.

If you're wanting to go to the NBA early, you wanna be a big fish in a medium pond...not a little fish in a big pond.

Despite what you KSU fans like to think and say, the blue chippers keep right on showing up and Bill Self has won 78% of his games while at Kansas.  This whole thread is sour grapes.  If emoticons weren't so ridiculous and stupid, I would use that popcorn one you like so much.

You guys should get back to talking about how bad a coach you think Rick Barnes is and the cultural benefits of throwing live chickens onto a basketball court. 

Cole Aldrich and Tyrel Reed are not "blue chippers".

Shhh.

Let him think that a 4 star center from Minnesota and a 3 star guard from kansas are elite prospects.

You guys need to get off of Fitz's junk and stop using stars to rate players.  When the final RSCI comes out, Cole will be top 25.  Reed will be right around top 70.  Of course, Reed will be the 5th or 6th guard in the rotation next year and was also recruited by the likes of UNC and Georgia Tech.

Still not blue chippers.  And as more and more "blue chippers" see their draft stock plummet under Self (Wright, Rush, Arthur), future stars will take note.

Y'all had a nice little run.  You'll be praying for Roy-esque recruiting in no time.

That is a nice dream for you.  Good luck with that one.  

Based on history, Huggins is the one that is having the flash in a pan recruiting success based on being out of coaching and not having rules.  Self has a much better recruiting track record.

[michigancat]

If you honestly consider yourself an early NBA prospect, going to ku has to be one of the worst career decisions you can make.

#1:  You're not gonna develop under Self's staff.  You're just going to maintain or perhaps get worse.
#2:  You're not gonna put up tremendous stats, because there's too much talent around you, also trying to go league early.  In fact, you may not get much playing time at all.
#3:  You're not gonna improve your draft status any, because of #1 and #2.  In fact, it will probably get worse.

This is why Darrell Arthur has realized that perhaps the worst decision of his life was to go to ku instead of Baylor.  At Baylor, we'd be talking about him challenging Durant for Big XII player of the year.  Instead, we're talking about how he's getting some nice minutes.

If you're wanting to go to the NBA early, you wanna be a big fish in a medium pond...not a little fish in a big pond.

Despite what you KSU fans like to think and say, the blue chippers keep right on showing up and Bill Self has won 78% of his games while at Kansas.  This whole thread is sour grapes.  If emoticons weren't so ridiculous and stupid, I would use that popcorn one you like so much.

You guys should get back to talking about how bad a coach you think Rick Barnes is and the cultural benefits of throwing live chickens onto a basketball court. 

Cole Aldrich and Tyrel Reed are not "blue chippers".

Shhh.

Let him think that a 4 star center from Minnesota and a 3 star guard from kansas are elite prospects.

You guys need to get off of Fitz's junk and stop using stars to rate players.  When the final RSCI comes out, Cole will be top 25.  Reed will be right around top 70.  Of course, Reed will be the 5th or 6th guard in the rotation next year and was also recruited by the likes of UNC and Georgia Tech.

Still not blue chippers.  And as more and more "blue chippers" see their draft stock plummet under Self (Wright, Rush, Arthur), future stars will take note.

Y'all had a nice little run.  You'll be praying for Roy-esque recruiting in no time.

That is a nice dream for you.  Good luck with that one. 

Based on history, Huggins is the one that is having the flash in a pan recruiting success based on being out of coaching and not having rules.  Self has a much better recruiting track record.

Hmm.  Not really.  His Illinois recruiting (based on RSCI) was average - worse than Huggins at Cincy.  At ku, he had one great class, had two classes comparable to Huggs' classes at Cincy, and inherited an excellent Roy class.  He won't get a class similar to his 05 class ever again.