excellent meltdown

[michigancat]

thinking about this some more, I don't think we looked nearly as "lost" last year as we do so far this year (despite the bad Iowa and Oregon losses last year).  The major difference is the main players last year were 6 returners, 2 newcomers.  This year, it's 4 returners and 5 or 6 newcomers.  Worse start, but higher potential this year.

IMO!

won't we basically have to worry about "newcomers" like every year?  next year I suppose we don't, so I wonder what our exceuses will be next year at this time. "It's going to take time for Freddy to adjust"...."it's been a few years since Pullen had to run the point, he's just getting used to it"..."it's only Wally's second year"...."Losing Kelly last year really set us back".

or maybe Frank just needs to learn how to bring a team along better?   
also getting lottery picks wil help.

I don't know why the w/l thus far needs to be "excused". 

[pissclams]

thinking about this some more, I don't think we looked nearly as "lost" last year as we do so far this year (despite the bad Iowa and Oregon losses last year).  The major difference is the main players last year were 6 returners, 2 newcomers.  This year, it's 4 returners and 5 or 6 newcomers.  Worse start, but higher potential this year.

IMO!

the guys going into last year had more to learn about the offense given it changed more between year 1 frank to year 2 frank (considering the loss of beasley and walker) then it did between year 2 frank and year 3 frank.

 

well, the offense against Dayton and Miss was slightly better than it was against Iowa, Kentucky and Oregon last year. 

but I was mainly referring to defense/being soft, where IMO most of the cluelessness resides.

ya i tried to edit it and say "system" since it's not fair to ignore our defense when discussing the crappyness that our team has displayed this season.

my point (and I'm trying to be as negative as possible), is that the guys had less to learn and had way more experience coming into this year.

4 of what should be our starters played significant minutes last year, throw in CK, who practiced with the team all of last year and you've got the 5 guys that should be dominating.

Pullen (Jr) 3rd year in system
Peanuthead (Sr)  3rd year in system
Sutton (Jr) 3rd year in system
Samuels (So) 3rd year in system
Kelly (Jr) 2nd year in system

[JTKSU]

thinking about this some more, I don't think we looked nearly as "lost" last year as we do so far this year (despite the bad Iowa and Oregon losses last year).  The major difference is the main players last year were 6 returners, 2 newcomers.  This year, it's 4 returners and 5 or 6 newcomers.  Worse start, but higher potential this year.

IMO!

won't we basically have to worry about "newcomers" like every year?  next year I suppose we don't, so I wonder what our exceuses will be next year at this time. "It's going to take time for Freddy to adjust"...."it's been a few years since Pullen had to run the point, he's just getting used to it"..."it's only Wally's second year"...."Losing Kelly last year really set us back".

or maybe Frank just needs to learn how to bring a team along better?   
also getting lottery picks wil help.

Yeah, you'll have to worry about newcomers every year, that's why it's nice when you don't really need to rely on many newcomers in a given year..  If we only needed, say,  Judge to play good minutes for us, it's not a big deal.  But, we need Judge, J Hen, Kelly, McGruder, and Russell to all contribute significantly, so it is a problem.  Shouldn't be a big issue next year.  Freddy should be up to speed already, and the other two (3?) probably won't be asked to contribute significantly.  Outside of the teams that have a roster heavy on future lottery picks, the teams that tend to do well come tournament time are upperclassmen laden.

[catzacker]

thinking about this some more, I don't think we looked nearly as "lost" last year as we do so far this year (despite the bad Iowa and Oregon losses last year).  The major difference is the main players last year were 6 returners, 2 newcomers.  This year, it's 4 returners and 5 or 6 newcomers.  Worse start, but higher potential this year.

IMO!

won't we basically have to worry about "newcomers" like every year?  next year I suppose we don't, so I wonder what our exceuses will be next year at this time. "It's going to take time for Freddy to adjust"...."it's been a few years since Pullen had to run the point, he's just getting used to it"..."it's only Wally's second year"...."Losing Kelly last year really set us back".

or maybe Frank just needs to learn how to bring a team along better?   
also getting lottery picks wil help.

I don't know why the w/l thus far needs to be "excused". 

I think we're far enough along to complain about play, rather than fall back on the "well, we still won" thing.  

and given how we've played, the next 4 games are going to be painful if they don't turn it around.  so that w/l thing will look like crap.

[JTKSU]

thinking about this some more, I don't think we looked nearly as "lost" last year as we do so far this year (despite the bad Iowa and Oregon losses last year).  The major difference is the main players last year were 6 returners, 2 newcomers.  This year, it's 4 returners and 5 or 6 newcomers.  Worse start, but higher potential this year.

IMO!

won't we basically have to worry about "newcomers" like every year?  next year I suppose we don't, so I wonder what our exceuses will be next year at this time. "It's going to take time for Freddy to adjust"...."it's been a few years since Pullen had to run the point, he's just getting used to it"..."it's only Wally's second year"...."Losing Kelly last year really set us back".

or maybe Frank just needs to learn how to bring a team along better?   
also getting lottery picks wil help.

I don't know why the w/l thus far needs to be "excused". 

I think we're far enough along to complain about play, rather than fall back on the "well, we still won" thing.  

and given how we've played, the next 4 games are going to be painful if they don't turn it around.  so that w/l thing will look like crap.

It seems like this team has a hard time getting up for non-marquee games.  We looked entirely different against Dayton, very lethargic last night.  That is not a good trait for a team.  I guess the good news is that we will soon be practicing a ton during X-Mas break, so that should help with some of the execution issues, but if these kids continue to play certain games half-assed, it's going to be a long season.

[michigancat]

ya i tried to edit it and say "system" since it's not fair to ignore our defense when discussing the crappyness that our team has displayed this season.

my point (and I'm trying to be as negative as possible), is that the guys had less to learn and had way more experience coming into this year.

4 of what should be our starters played significant minutes last year, throw in CK, who practiced with the team all of last year and you've got the 5 guys that should be dominating.

Pullen (Jr) 3rd year in system
Peanuthead (Sr)  3rd year in system
Sutton (Jr) 3rd year in system
Samuels (So) 3rd year in system
Kelly (Jr) 2nd year in system

Using that argument, we played zero newcomers last year. 

I think we're far enough along to complain about play, rather than fall back on the "well, we still won" thing. 

Even when Victor plays 29 minutes? 

and given how we've played, the next 4 games are going to be painful if they don't turn it around.  so that w/l thing will look like crap.

Yeah, and if they go 3-1 we're in pretty good shape. 

[Louises West]

i give it one more game like this and we get some fire frank threads 

Just wait til the Kansas game.  The meltdown should be legendary

[steve dave]

i give it one more game like this and we get some fire frank threads 

Just wait til the Kansas game.  The meltdown should be legendary

That's a pretty retarded statement.  We are going to be huge underdogs and nobody will expect us to win. 

[WillieWannabe]

i give it one more game like this and we get some fire frank threads 

Just wait til the Kansas game.  The meltdown should be legendary

It's ok. It's only basketball. We won the game that mattered this year. 

[pissclams]

Using that argument, we played zero newcomers last year. 

STRAWMAN!

[catzacker]

I think we're far enough along to complain about play, rather than fall back on the "well, we still won" thing. 

Even when Victor plays 29 minutes? 

and given how we've played, the next 4 games are going to be painful if they don't turn it around.  so that w/l thing will look like crap.

Yeah, and if they go 3-1 we're in pretty good shape. 

Victory playing 29 minutes falls under the "maybe Frank just needs to learn how to bring a team along better".  If we go 3-1 that probably means we played good basketball over that time...couple that record with playing well for the remainder of the non-cons and that would be a (good) departure from the previous years.  I'd be extremely encouraged if we went 3-1. 

[michigancat]

I think we're far enough along to complain about play, rather than fall back on the "well, we still won" thing. 

Even when Victor plays 29 minutes? 

and given how we've played, the next 4 games are going to be painful if they don't turn it around.  so that w/l thing will look like crap.

Yeah, and if they go 3-1 we're in pretty good shape. 

Victory playing 29 minutes falls under the "maybe Frank just needs to learn how to bring a team along better".

Only if we lose.  And now we've come full circle. 

[catzacker]

I don't think the result necessarily equates to progress.  We've regressed since Dayton, but the results have been the "same". 

[sys]

We've regressed since Dayton.

i'm a little tired of hearing about dayton.  kstate didn't play that great against dayton.

[EllToPay]

I don't think the result necessarily equates to progress.  We've regressed since Dayton, but the results have been the "same". 

can we really regress that much when its only been two games since dayton???

[catzacker]

We've regressed since Dayton.

i'm a little tired of hearing about dayton.  kstate didn't play that great against dayton.

To this point, it's the best we've played, imo, thus it's the benchmark.  though given our play it might be the exception. 

I suppose we need to assume that our program is at a level that there is an expectation to win nearly every game against teams that we are equal to or that are worse than us.  If not, then we should just take the "happy to win" montra and hang a banner for beating FHS.  

If we do have an expectaton to win those games then using it (a win) as a measure is irrelevant, we've already accounted for it in our expectation.  Applying this to FHS, we assumed we'd win, so there's not credit in doing so.  So what comes after that?  Evaluation of performance.  Currently, our performances over a 7 games season have mostly been below average to poor.  

[JTKSU]

I don't think the result necessarily equates to progress.  We've regressed since Dayton, but the results have been the "same". 

can we really regress that much when its only been two games since dayton???

We haven't regressed.  Frank is just using these games against inferior teams to further enforce his "may way or the highway" stance.  The rotation we see against WSU will be pretty similar to the one we will use for the majority of the remainder of the season.  Expect Victor and Merriwether to get comfortable at the end of the bench again.  I am curious if Samuels takes over the starting 4 spot though.  Seems like he will and rightfully should.

[fatty fat fat]

We prolly should have known we suck when Ole f*cking Miss destroyed us.

[sys]

To this point, it's the best we've played, imo, thus it's the benchmark.  though given our play it might be the exception. 

i'd argue that the 'cats best game was against loyola.


agree that they really haven't played well all season.

[steve dave]

We prolly should have known we suck when Ole f*cking Miss destroyed us.

First clue should have been Wichita State absolutely dismantling us in front of our mothers/sisters

[fatty fat fat]

i'd argue that the 'cats best game was against loyola.

Wow. This is worthy of a new thread. Folks, what was our best game this year?

Sutton is the problem, kelly is soft. Martin is fine.

[michigancat]

i'd argue that the 'cats best game was against loyola.

Wow. This is worthy of a new thread. Folks, what was our best game this year?

Sutton is the problem, kelly is soft. Martin is fine.

Judge is soft, too.  BUT IT'S MARTIN'S JOB TO MAKE THEM NOT SOFT.

[Rick Daris]

what's this? we don't look sharp early in the season and martin is playing scrubs a bunch to try and send and message to other people on the team. some of the players also seem unhappy? oh wow. color me shocked. shocked i tell you. 


see you guys next year. same time, same place. 

[sys]

no, it's different this year, rd.  very different.  because of kelly.

[Rick Daris]

no, it's different this year, rd.  very different.  because of kelly.

how so? seems no diffy.

[sys]

because he's a cancer.  cancer is no laughing matter and is hard to cure.

[SuperG]

because he's a cancer.  cancer is no laughing matter and is hard to cure.

Frank Martin will chew up cancer and spit it out. Just watch.

[Jeffrey_Martin]

I'm going to toss this out there and then walk away... when is the end of the first semester? When school is over, there's a span of time where there are no distractions, no girlfriends, nothing to focus on but basketball. Ever since Huggs was around, the Cats always made their biggest improvements then. There is no limit to how much time the coaches can spend with the players, and it's essentially basketball 24/7. If K-State splits this upcoming four-game stretch, I think Frank - secretly, of course - would be OK with that. They're going to get better. The young kids aren't playing, then they're hanging around their friends on campus who are wondering why they're not playing, and their heads are all messed up. Remember when you were freshmen? There is an adjustment period to college life, and these are playing basketball on top of that. But you'll see... Once conference starts, they'll be fine. It's the same worries every year, yes, but winning 20 games every year isn't too bad, either. And RPI shouldn't be an issue this year.

OK, flame away...

[Pete]

because he's a cancer.  cancer is no laughing matter and is hard to cure.

Frank Martin will chew up cancer and spit it out. Just watch.

Colon (the tummy one, not the Cougar banger) cancer, if found early, has an 85% survival rate.

[steve dave]

I'm going to toss this out there and then walk away... when is the end of the first semester? When school is over, there's a span of time where there are no distractions, no girlfriends, nothing to focus on but basketball. Ever since Huggs was around, the Cats always made their biggest improvements then. There is no limit to how much time the coaches can spend with the players, and it's essentially basketball 24/7. If K-State splits this upcoming four-game stretch, I think Frank - secretly, of course - would be OK with that. They're going to get better. The young kids aren't playing, then they're hanging around their friends on campus who are wondering why they're not playing, and their heads are all messed up. Remember when you were freshmen? There is an adjustment period to college life, and these are playing basketball on top of that. But you'll see... Once conference starts, they'll be fine. It's the same worries every year, yes, but winning 20 games every year isn't too bad, either. And RPI shouldn't be an issue this year.

OK, flame away...

Was anyone else waiting for Jeff to say that someone was going to transfer at semester about 2 lines into reading that?

also, good input here Jeff.