Jamar/Dom

[catzacker]

The rotation at the 3 appears to be Jamar and Dom. The 1-2 spots are Denis/Pullen and Russell/Gruds/Mirv.  I still consider the 3 the weakness of the 5 positions.  Based on the limited scrimmage, it looks like Samuels worked on some back to the basket stuff and Dom just worked on shaving his head cleaner.  I dunno.  Any HBBIQ thoughts or expectations for the 3 spot?

[chum1]

How often do teams get a lot of scoring from that position?  Aren't guys that size typically more about playing D and rebounding?

[catzacker]

How often do teams get a lot of scoring from that position?  Aren't guys that size typically more about playing D and rebounding?

That's probably true, but I'm more concerned about their effectiveness on the offensive end, not really scoring totals.  Also, Jamar is not really that good of a defender (at least I can't see him going out to defend the other team's 3).  It looks like they both want to chuck it up from 3 more than they want to take it to the rim or work on some drive and pull up jumpers.  I'd expect their game should be more 15ft and in but it looks like they want it to be around the 3pt line.  I dunno, I just see teams (once again and maybe moreso this year) sagging off our 3 to help elsewhere. 

[sys]

i'm not a fan of the samuels @ the 3 experiment.  sutton should have that spot locked up and mcgruder/3rd guard can use any backup minutes.  rather see samuels in the big rotation w kelly and judge.

i'm pretty happy with sutton, think he'll be able to shoot better this year.  not as a threat, but a guy that at least has to be guarded.  great to hear that his head is a little cleaner this year.  if there's any one thing that he can be criticized for in the past, it's for letting himself get a little scraggly at times.  people that attractive need to set an example for the rest of us.  sounds like, as a junior, he's finally maturing into his role and accepting that he needs to concentrate on maximizing his gifts (super sleek greyhoundey type), and not try to be a poor imitation of someone else (like a beasley-super adorable, fuzzy headed type).

[pissclams]

samuel at the 3 can work if we just run 3 bigs.  run an inside out game.
with this athleticism and strength, when jamar is isolated on the block he's going to score or get foulded and go to the line.

good things happen when he's on the floor and he needs to be out there more than just in a 2 big rotation.

[ksu_FAN]

Keys for Jam/Dom.

1) Play decent defense.

2) Get 5-7 offensive boards (combined) per game.

[sys]

when jamar is isolated on the block he's going to score or get foulded and go to the line.

by far the more likely possibility.


maybe the extra 20 lbs will let him actually finish once or twice after the bump?   

[pissclams]

LOL @ foulded

ya i'm pretty excited to see how his new weight (see ripped, pure, muscle mass) and experience add up this season.

my  for jamar and pullen is reaching pw/lamark brown type proportions

[catzacker]

samuel at the 3 can work if we just run 3 bigs.  run an inside out game.
with this athleticism and strength, when jamar is isolated on the block he's going to score or get foulded and go to the line.

good things happen when he's on the floor and he needs to be out there more than just in a 2 big rotation.

this is why I liked seeing Jamar do some work with his back to the basket.  I like him at the 3 for only that reason.  Dom just doesn't do anything for me, thought his numbers last year weren't bad (7.5/5.5).  i think jamar will be a liability on the defensive end at the 3 though.  This is the same staff that was going to put Hoskins at the 2 if he was healthy.

[ksu_FAN]

samuel at the 3 can work if we just run 3 bigs.  run an inside out game.
with this athleticism and strength, when jamar is isolated on the block he's going to score or get foulded and go to the line.

good things happen when he's on the floor and he needs to be out there more than just in a 2 big rotation.

this is why I liked seeing Jamar do some work with his back to the basket.  I like him at the 3 for only that reason.  Dom just doesn't do anything for me, thought his numbers last year weren't bad (7.5/5.5).  i think jamar will be a liability on the defensive end at the 3 though.  This is the same staff that was going to put Hoskins at the 2 if he was healthy.

Depends what they want to do defensively.

It sounds like the plan this year will be to apply a ton of pressure on the perimeter and have our bigs in the lane (Kelly/Judge/Henriquez) change shots when we get beat off the dribble.  With the length of Samuels at times he will be able to really both smaller 3s and force some TOs.  Granted, he will get beat off the dribble at times, but I'm sure the thinking is the defense behind him will be much more effective and we won't just have to hope we get a charge in the lane.

[doom]

samuel at the 3 can work if we just run 3 bigs.  run an inside out game.
with this athleticism and strength, when jamar is isolated on the block he's going to score or get foulded and go to the line.

good things happen when he's on the floor and he needs to be out there more than just in a 2 big rotation.

this is why I liked seeing Jamar do some work with his back to the basket.  I like him at the 3 for only that reason.  Dom just doesn't do anything for me, thought his numbers last year weren't bad (7.5/5.5).  i think jamar will be a liability on the defensive end at the 3 though.  This is the same staff that was going to put Hoskins at the 2 if he was healthy.

Depends what they want to do defensively.

It sounds like the plan this year will be to apply a ton of pressure on the perimeter and have our bigs in the lane (Kelly/Judge/Henriquez) change shots when we get beat off the dribble.  With the length of Samuels at times he will be able to really both smaller 3s and force some TOs.  Granted, he will get beat off the dribble at times, but I'm sure the thinking is the defense behind him will be much more effective and we won't just have to hope we get a charge in the lane.

I like Jamsam's height for a 2-3 zone but did not see much that impresses me with him trying to guard another team's 3.  Sutton can guard almost anyone at the 2 or 3 imo. 

Offensively neither seems that great.  Jamsam would be at the 4 more than the 3.  Sutton is still a slasher with an occasional midrange.  I think their biggest strength is their dashing good looks.

[sys]

With the length of Samuels at times he will be able to really both smaller 3s and force some TOs.  Granted, he will get beat off the dribble at times, but I'm sure the thinking is the defense behind him will be much more effective and we won't just have to hope we get a charge in the lane.

that's probably the thought.  there are certainly some 3s in the league that you'd just as soon be forced to dribble into traffic as not.

oth, there isn't anyone, of any shape or skillset that sutton can't defend better than samuels.

[ksu_FAN]

With the length of Samuels at times he will be able to really both smaller 3s and force some TOs.  Granted, he will get beat off the dribble at times, but I'm sure the thinking is the defense behind him will be much more effective and we won't just have to hope we get a charge in the lane.

that's probably the thought.  there are certainly some 3s in the league that you'd just as soon be forced to dribble into traffic as not.

oth, there isn't anyone, of any shape or skillset that sutton can't defend better than samuels.

I agree with this.  And I honestly doubt Sam at the 3 will be a full time deal.  It will all depend on match-ups and when we get against a bigger 3.  I bet Sam plays at the 4 just as much or more than he plays at the 3.

[pissclams]

Ya I think its safe to say that the 3-5 are all interchangable on this team, they all pretty much play the same position depending on how the defensive assignments fall.

[catzacker]

As it relates to Dom, am I off in thinking that he should have (and hasn't) developed a mid range game?  It looks like he wants nothing to do with a 12-15ft shot and just went straight for the 3ball (though it's not like he's just chucking 3's, he only attempted 21 last year).  Like trying to climb Mt. Everest before even attempting Pike's Peak.  Maybe I'm expecting too much from him?  I dunno, maybe this year he develops it?

[pissclams]

Ya I think its safe to say that the 3-5 are all interchangable on this team, they all pretty much play the same position depending on how the defensive assignments fall.

stupid post, was in a meeting not paying attention.

if we play the offense the way i'm suggesting we should, then with the limited range our 3's have, we could see CK dumping the  ball into a sutton/samuels on the block when the defense dictates.

[ksu_FAN]

Ya I think its safe to say that the 3-5 are all interchangable on this team, they all pretty much play the same position depending on how the defensive assignments fall.

stupid post, was in a meeting not paying attention.

if we play the offense the way i'm suggesting we should, then with the limited range our 3's have, we could see CK dumping the  ball into a sutton/samuels on the block when the defense dictates.

Yes.  Love to see some hi-low offense like we did with Bill and Mike.  I'm sure Frank has this in the works.

[michigancat]

Ya I think its safe to say that the 3-5 are all interchangable on this team, they all pretty much play the same position depending on how the defensive assignments fall.

stupid post, was in a meeting not paying attention.

if we play the offense the way i'm suggesting we should, then with the limited range our 3's have, we could see CK dumping the  ball into a sutton/samuels on the block when the defense dictates.

They definitely tried that with Dom last year.  He just kind of sucks offensively. 

And zack, I really don't want to see Sutton have a midrange game.  I'm confident his 12-15 foot jumpers would look just as bad as his 3's, but at least the 3's are worth 50% more.

[pissclams]

yeah, i'm honestly good with neither one of them shooting much from beyond 10 feet.

[Paul11]

Dom needs to get his head on straight. Kid has a beautiful jump shot. But just because it is pretty does not mean it always goes in. If this were the case the Fred would have never made a three in his life. I don't want him shooting tons of jumpers but I would like him to have the threat of shooting outside or at least develop a pump fake to make his drives easier

[chum1]

Why don't we worry about more important things like how our 5s aren't very good at dribbling the ball up the floor?  Anyone disagree?

[sys]

Why don't we worry about more important things like how our 5s aren't very good at dribbling the ball up the floor?  Anyone disagree?

5 out, 0 in.   

[The Manhatter]

if we have Jamar on the court @ the 3 with Kelly and Judge inside it would not surprise me to see Judge and Jamar switch on the defensive end.  I think Judge is a little quicker, more fluid than Jamar and could guard a three.  Sure, he'll get a blow by but that length is troubles for perimeter players.  Jamar has experience defending inside.

The key is that you have 3 lengthy bigs on the court...great for defense and rebounding.

[CNS Casey]

With so many guards listed above, and Frank always talking about how most of our bigs can run, I wouldn't be surprised to see our #3 get filled by a guard often.

Running a fast, 3-guard offense with two bigs that can keep up would be a very effective scheme against several of our conf opponents.  Might also be necessary against teams like NU who's coach is far and away the tallest guy associated with the team.

With Russell and Irv, we would still have some height/body at that position too.  Would give us an upgrade on speed and shooting and still allow us to possibly exploit mismatches.

Also with the discussion that Irv has the possibility to be a lock-down type defender, this would make the above even more possible.

Either that, or I am bat-crap crazy.

[yosh]

My thoughts:

Nothing wrong with Sutton at the 3.  He's a good player.  I don't wan't him to quit shooting threes either.  If anything, take more.  He's a better offensive player taking a few threes and making 25% than he is never shooting them at all.

Samuels will probably see less time at the 3 than McGruder.  Samuels at the three is a novelty akin to the Wildcat in football.  It's a change of pace and it gives us a large atheltic group we can run, but on a consistent basis it won't work.  We'll go three guards far more often than three bigs.

If I had to guess PT breakdown:

1.  Clemente 15, Pullen 10, Russell 15
2.  Pullen 15, Clemente 10, McGruder 10, Irving 5
3.  Sutton 25, McGurder 10, Samuels 5
4.  Judge 20, Samuels 20
5.  Kelly 25, Judge 5, Colon 5, Henriquez 5

[jswo89]

If I had to guess PT breakdown:

1.  Clemente 15, Pullen 10, Russell 15
2.  Pullen 15, Clemente 10, McGruder 10, Irving 5
3.  Sutton 25, McGurder 10, Samuels 5
4.  Judge 20, Samuels 20
5.  Kelly 25, Judge 5, Colon 5, Henriquez 5

Hate to say it, but I would count on Colon playing more than 5 minutes a game, especially early on. Maybe by conference play Lou will spend 35 minutes on the bench.

[catzacker]

Ya I think its safe to say that the 3-5 are all interchangable on this team, they all pretty much play the same position depending on how the defensive assignments fall.

stupid post, was in a meeting not paying attention.

if we play the offense the way i'm suggesting we should, then with the limited range our 3's have, we could see CK dumping the  ball into a sutton/samuels on the block when the defense dictates.

They definitely tried that with Dom last year.  He just kind of sucks offensively. 

And zack, I really don't want to see Sutton have a midrange game.  I'm confident his 12-15 foot jumpers would look just as bad as his 3's, but at least the 3's are worth 50% more.

It's not that I'd rather he took 2 steps inside the arc and shot, because he's terrible either way, so the reward is greater on a 3 shot, I guess what I don't understand is wtf has he been doing for the past 2 years?  I don't see any offensive progression at all (more points?  sure, but that's relative to the amount of PT he's gotten and the scoring that left b/t his fr and so year).  He just seems like a guy who doesn't know his own game or has no idea what his game should be.  It's like he's been practicing chucking 3's instead of working inside out, which would be more effective.  I suppose it took Hoskins a while too. 

[pissclams]

If I had to guess PT breakdown:

1.  Clemente 15, Pullen 10, Russell 15
2.  Pullen 15, Clemente 10, McGruder 10, Irving 5
3.  Sutton 25, McGurder 10, Samuels 5
4.  Judge 20, Samuels 20
5.  Kelly 25, Judge 5, Colon 5, Henriquez 5

Hate to say it, but I would count on Colon playing more than 5 minutes a game, especially early on. Maybe by conference play Lou will spend 35 minutes on the bench.

what makes you say that?

also need to give "props" to catzacker for starting this great/interesting thread on the hoops board.

[ksu_FAN]

My thoughts:

Nothing wrong with Sutton at the 3.  He's a good player.  I don't wan't him to quit shooting threes either.  If anything, take more.  He's a better offensive player taking a few threes and making 25% than he is never shooting them at all.

Samuels will probably see less time at the 3 than McGruder.  Samuels at the three is a novelty akin to the Wildcat in football.  It's a change of pace and it gives us a large atheltic group we can run, but on a consistent basis it won't work.  We'll go three guards far more often than three bigs.

If I had to guess PT breakdown:

1.  Clemente 15, Pullen 10, Russell 15
2.  Pullen 15, Clemente 10, McGruder 10, Irving 5
3.  Sutton 25, McGurder 10, Samuels 5
4.  Judge 20, Samuels 20
5.  Kelly 25, Judge 5, Colon 5, Henriquez 5

Good breakdown.

I'd probably just go guards, wing, and bigs.

Guard minutes:
Clemente 31
Pullen 31
McGruder 5
Russell 7
Irving 6

Wing:
Sutton 25
Samuels 8
McGruder 7

Bigs:
Kelly 25
Judge 22
Samuels 15
Colon 10
Henriquez 8

[michigancat]

Ya I think its safe to say that the 3-5 are all interchangable on this team, they all pretty much play the same position depending on how the defensive assignments fall.

stupid post, was in a meeting not paying attention.

if we play the offense the way i'm suggesting we should, then with the limited range our 3's have, we could see CK dumping the  ball into a sutton/samuels on the block when the defense dictates.

They definitely tried that with Dom last year.  He just kind of sucks offensively.  

And zack, I really don't want to see Sutton have a midrange game.  I'm confident his 12-15 foot jumpers would look just as bad as his 3's, but at least the 3's are worth 50% more.

It's not that I'd rather he took 2 steps inside the arc and shot, because he's terrible either way, so the reward is greater on a 3 shot, I guess what I don't understand is wtf has he been doing for the past 2 years?  I don't see any offensive progression at all (more points?  sure, but that's relative to the amount of PT he's gotten and the scoring that left b/t his fr and so year).  He just seems like a guy who doesn't know his own game or has no idea what his game should be.  It's like he's been practicing chucking 3's instead of working inside out, which would be more effective.  I suppose it took Hoskins a while too.  

he should only work on finishing around the rim (off penetration and post ups) and threes, and honestly ignore his mid-range game.

Really, this goes for about any player IMO.