I suppose you get what you pay for

[mjrod]

Surely, you're not serious...

 


Should I start with the playing experience, coaching experience, or quality of programs under which he's been taught?

 

Go ahead.  Still doesn't help make your argument that he would have been a better HC, or the KSU would have been a better team.   The resume doesn't help that at all.

 

[catzacker]

I would say the fact that he's recruited Texas most of his career and done it quite well makes his resume better to start.  The numerous championships don't hurt, either.

So that makes him a better head coach because he was CO-D for so long (and really not THE CO-D) and the fact he recruited in Texas, and the fact that Venables did not receive a good reference from his head coach?

I still don't believe that reference crap.  And yes, the recruiting aspect outweighs three ring binders any day of the week.

Rusty, BV raped a horse. That's why he didn't get the job.  I've always found it humerous that BV committed some unmentionable sin that was going to come out soon, but has never come out and Stoops, who must have known about, thought the "sin" was so bad that he let BV keep his same job. 

[mjrod]

I would say the fact that he's recruited Texas most of his career and done it quite well makes his resume better to start.  The numerous championships don't hurt, either.

So that makes him a better head coach because he was CO-D for so long (and really not THE CO-D) and the fact he recruited in Texas, and the fact that Venables did not receive a good reference from his head coach?

I still don't believe that reference crap.  And yes, the recruiting aspect outweighs three ring binders any day of the week.

In one year?

Maybe in the long haul, but that's speculation on your part.   He can't come in here and do everything himself.  He'd have to hire assistant coaches, build a system, etc.. including recruiting.    You're basis for recruiting is a PART of the equation.   He may have done a better job at recruiting.  So has Stoops at Arizona.  I don't see them getting much better.

[michigancat]

I would say the fact that he's recruited Texas most of his career and done it quite well makes his resume better to start.  The numerous championships don't hurt, either.

So that makes him a better head coach because he was CO-D for so long (and really not THE CO-D) and the fact he recruited in Texas, and the fact that Venables did not receive a good reference from his head coach?

I still don't believe that reference crap.  And yes, the recruiting aspect outweighs three ring binders any day of the week.

In one year?

Maybe in the long haul, but that's speculation on your part.   He can't come in here and do everything himself.  He'd have to hire assistant coaches, build a system, etc.. including recruiting.    You're basis for recruiting is a PART of the equation.   He may have done a better job at recruiting.  So has Stoops at Arizona.  I don't see them getting much better.

Sorry, I thought we were discussing who had the better resume to be the head coach, not who would do better in year one.  If that's the case, Dana Dimel or Del Miller probably would have done better than Prince or Venables in year one.

Arizona will be in much better shape when Mikey leaves than they would have been if they had some crap recruiter come in and maybe win an extra game a year.

[pissclams]

Your question as to what makes BV's resume better than RP's has been answered.

[mjrod]

Sorry, I thought we were discussing who had the better resume to be the head coach, not who would do better in year one.  If that's the case, Dana Dimel or Del Miller probably would have done better than Prince or Venables in year one.

Arizona will be in much better shape when Mikey leaves than they would have been if they had some crap recruiter come in and maybe win an extra game a year.

I think it shows by the hire.   Maybe that's where you're confused.

[mjrod]

Your question as to what makes BV's resume better than RP's has been answered.

Sorry, it wasn't.  Coaching on championship teams and having rings is one thing.

Check Mangino and let me know if he's a better coach.

[michigancat]

Sorry, I thought we were discussing who had the better resume to be the head coach, not who would do better in year one.  If that's the case, Dana Dimel or Del Miller probably would have done better than Prince or Venables in year one.

Arizona will be in much better shape when Mikey leaves than they would have been if they had some crap recruiter come in and maybe win an extra game a year.

I think it shows by the hire.   Maybe that's where you're confused.

English, please.

Your question as to what makes BV's resume better than RP's has been answered.

Sorry, it wasn't.  Coaching on championship teams and having rings is one thing.

Check Mangino and let me know if he's a better coach.

Better than Prince?  It's really tough to make an argument that Mangino's worse than Prince.

[pissclams]

Your question as to what makes BV's resume better than RP's has been answered.

Sorry, it wasn't.  Coaching on championship teams and having rings is one thing.

Check Mangino and let me know if he's a better coach.

I thought we were talking about the coach's resume.
RP's OC and OL experience at UVA doesn't measure up to BV's experience working under Snyder and Stoops.
Why is that a hard concept for you to grasp?

It doesn't mean that BV would make a better coach just because his resume is better.

[Bookie Pimp]

Bottom line is, we fncked up by hiring "outside the family".  

By hiring someone from the "Snyder coaching tree", we could have maintained far more continuity and gotten more from the talent on hand.  Yet, we aren't getting the best out of the kids we've got.

[mjrod]

Your question as to what makes BV's resume better than RP's has been answered.

Sorry, it wasn't.  Coaching on championship teams and having rings is one thing.

Check Mangino and let me know if he's a better coach.

I thought we were talking about the coach's resume.
RP's OC and OL experience at UVA doesn't measure up to BV's experience working under Snyder and Stoops.
Why is that a hard concept for you to grasp?

It doesn't mean that BV would make a better coach just because his resume is better.

Doesn't matter what you believe his experiences were, what matters is his ability to be a head coach in managing a football program.  It's more than just playing under a system.  It's the ability to run a program.  I might be the best fry cook in the store.  That doesn't qualify me to be the store manager.

Perhaps that's where you're confused.  You're looking at championship rings and being on winning programs as the "primary criteria" for being a head coach.  It isn't.

[pissclams]

Your question as to what makes BV's resume better than RP's has been answered.

Sorry, it wasn't.  Coaching on championship teams and having rings is one thing.

Check Mangino and let me know if he's a better coach.

I thought we were talking about the coach's resume.
RP's OC and OL experience at UVA doesn't measure up to BV's experience working under Snyder and Stoops.
Why is that a hard concept for you to grasp?

It doesn't mean that BV would make a better coach just because his resume is better.

Doesn't matter what you believe his experiences were, what matters is his ability to be a head coach in managing a football program.  It's more than just playing under a system.  It's the ability to run a program.  I might be the best fry cook in the store.  That doesn't qualify me to be the store manager.

Perhaps that's where you're confused.  You're looking at championship rings and being on winning programs as the "primary criteria" for being a head coach.  It isn't.

I'm  not the one that's confused.  You're confusing a coach's resume with his ability to be effective as a head coach.
This isn't about who is the better or could be the better coach. 

[mjrod]

Bottom line is, we fncked up by hiring "outside the family".   

By hiring someone from the "Snyder coaching tree", we could have maintained far more continuity and gotten more from the talent on hand.  Yet, we aren't getting the best out of the kids we've got.

That's an assumption not really based in fact.   It's your opinion, but really, let's face it, what would be able to show that would back that up?

[mjrod]

I'm  not the one that's confused.  You're confusing a coach's resume with his ability to be effective as a head coach.
This isn't about who is the better or could be the better coach. 

No, the implication is that BV has a better resume BASED on the criteria you guys set therefore must be a better coach.  That's where this thread was headed.  That's what Bookie is now telling us.

[catzacker]

I'm  not the one that's confused.  You're confusing a coach's resume with his ability to be effective as a head coach.
This isn't about who is the better or could be the better coach. 

No, the implication is that BV has a better resume BASED on the criteria you guys set therefore must be a better coach.  That's where this thread was headed.  That's what Bookie is now telling us.

So if you're making the coaching hire, what is your criteria?  Based on Prince's prior experience, his resume can't meet many of those criteria.  I would probably argue that BV would have more check marks on that criteria than Prince. 

[mjrod]

I'm  not the one that's confused.  You're confusing a coach's resume with his ability to be effective as a head coach.
This isn't about who is the better or could be the better coach. 

No, the implication is that BV has a better resume BASED on the criteria you guys set therefore must be a better coach.  That's where this thread was headed.  That's what Bookie is now telling us.

So if you're making the coaching hire, what is your criteria?  Based on Prince's prior experience, his resume can't meet many of those criteria.  I would probably argue that BV would have more check marks on that criteria than Prince. 

It's more than just being on a championship team.  It's about managing and building an entire program and your vision and concept for doing so.

Snyder approved of Prince.  I suppose his opinion doesn't count.

[michigancat]

I'm  not the one that's confused.  You're confusing a coach's resume with his ability to be effective as a head coach.
This isn't about who is the better or could be the better coach. 

No, the implication is that BV has a better resume BASED on the criteria you guys set therefore must be a better coach.  That's where this thread was headed.  That's what Bookie is now telling us.

What criteria would show that Prince's resume is better than Venables?

[mjrod]

I'm  not the one that's confused.  You're confusing a coach's resume with his ability to be effective as a head coach.
This isn't about who is the better or could be the better coach. 

No, the implication is that BV has a better resume BASED on the criteria you guys set therefore must be a better coach.  That's where this thread was headed.  That's what Bookie is now telling us.

What criteria would show that Prince's resume is better than Venables?

Ask Snyder.   He agreed with the hire.

[greasd up deaf guy]

I'm  not the one that's confused.  You're confusing a coach's resume with his ability to be effective as a head coach.
This isn't about who is the better or could be the better coach. 

No, the implication is that BV has a better resume BASED on the criteria you guys set therefore must be a better coach.  That's where this thread was headed.  That's what Bookie is now telling us.

What criteria would show that Prince's resume is better than Venables?

Ask Snyder.   He agreed with the hire.

He also never fired a coach. How did that work out the last couple of years?

[michigancat]

I'm  not the one that's confused.  You're confusing a coach's resume with his ability to be effective as a head coach.
This isn't about who is the better or could be the better coach. 

No, the implication is that BV has a better resume BASED on the criteria you guys set therefore must be a better coach.  That's where this thread was headed.  That's what Bookie is now telling us.

What criteria would show that Prince's resume is better than Venables?

Ask Snyder.   He agreed with the hire.

Snyder would have freaking agreed with anyone they brought to him.  He would have endorsed Del Miller, Bobby Elliott, Dana Dimel, or pretty much any other clown available.

[mjrod]

Snyder would have freaking agreed with anyone they brought to him.  He would have endorsed Del Miller, Bobby Elliott, Dana Dimel, or pretty much any other clown available.

[mjrod]

He also never fired a coach. How did that work out the last couple of years?

Means little when you consider that the administration went through Snyder for someone to take over his program.   The powers that be decided on a different course of action, and let it go through Snyder.  I don't think he was a rubber stamp kind of person.

[Bookie Pimp]

I'm  not the one that's confused.  You're confusing a coach's resume with his ability to be effective as a head coach.
This isn't about who is the better or could be the better coach. 

No, the implication is that BV has a better resume BASED on the criteria you guys set therefore must be a better coach.  That's where this thread was headed.  That's what Bookie is now telling us.

So if you're making the coaching hire, what is your criteria?  Based on Prince's prior experience, his resume can't meet many of those criteria.  I would probably argue that BV would have more check marks on that criteria than Prince. 

It's more than just being on a championship team.  It's about managing and building an entire program and your vision and concept for doing so.

Snyder approved of Prince.  I suppose his opinion doesn't count.

Maybe it would help to understand the details and focus needed for a championship team.  Please refresh my memory, but what championship teams was Prince a part of either coaching or playing?

Who wasn't impressed with Ron Prince's canned speech the first 3-5 times they heard it?  Let's face it, the guy could sell tennis memberships to midgets.

I can't fault Snyder for falling for the same smoke and mirrors act as the rest of us did.

[mjrod]

Maybe it would help to understand the details and focus needed for a championship team.  Please refresh my memory, but what championship teams was Prince a part of either coaching or playing?

Who wasn't impressed with Ron Prince's canned speech the first 3-5 times they heard it?  Let's face it, the guy could sell tennis memberships to midgets.

I can't fault Snyder for falling for the same smoke and mirrors act as the rest of us did.

You expect him to go to a championship in the first year?

[michigancat]

Maybe it would help to understand the details and focus needed for a championship team.  Please refresh my memory, but what championship teams was Prince a part of either coaching or playing?

Does "2003 Tire Bowl Champions" count?

[greasd up deaf guy]

He also never fired a coach. How did that work out the last couple of years?

Means little when you consider that the administration went through Snyder for someone to take over his program.   The powers that be decided on a different course of action, and let it go through Snyder.  I don't think he was a rubber stamp kind of person.

It has nothing to do with being a "rubber stamp kind of person." What I'm saying is that he isn't infallible regarding coaching personnel decisions. Your assertion that Snyder's seal of approval is as good as gold is a tad flawed considering some of the buffoons we had coaching at this program recently. The guy hit some serious homeruns, decidedly (Bielema, B Stoops, Bennett), but had some flailing strikeouts as well (Elliott, Cosh, Hudson).

[Bookie Pimp]

Maybe it would help to understand the details and focus needed for a championship team.  Please refresh my memory, but what championship teams was Prince a part of either coaching or playing?

Who wasn't impressed with Ron Prince's canned speech the first 3-5 times they heard it?  Let's face it, the guy could sell tennis memberships to midgets.

I can't fault Snyder for falling for the same smoke and mirrors act as the rest of us did.

You expect him to go to a championship in the first year?

No, but I do expect improvement.

Is that really too much to ask?

[catzacker]

BV
Coaching History
1999 - present - Oklahoma Assoc. Head Coach (2004), Co-Def. Coord. & Linebackers Coach
1998 - Kansas State Defensive Run Game Coordinator
1996-1998 - Kansas State Linebackers Coach
1993-1995 - Kansas State Graduate Assistant

Prince
COLLEGE COACHING EXPERIENCE
1992 ......................................Dodge City Community College, volunteer assistant coach (OT/TE)
1993 ................................................................................Alabama A&M, assistant coach (OL/TE)
1994............................................................................South Carolina State, assistant coach (OL)
1995-97..............................................................................James Madison, assistant coach (OL)
1998 ................................................................................................Cornell, assistant coach (OL)
1999-2000 ............................................Cornell, assistant coach/running game coordinator (OL)
2001-2002 ......................................................................................Virginia, assistant coach (OL)
2003-2005..............................................................................Virginia, offensive coordinator (OL)


Both have been in coaching for about the same length of time.  One has had more success than the other.  Under BV's defenses, the lowest the defense ever ranked was 39th in 1999.  After that, they've been in the top 15 in defense every single year since.  In Prince's 3 years as OC, they finished in the top 25 once and out of the top 50 in the two other years.  BV would have had a better understanding of KSU and is just as good of a recruiter as Prince (if not better).  I don't know how Prince's resume was better than BV's.  But BV did rape a horse. 

[mjrod]

He also never fired a coach. How did that work out the last couple of years?

Means little when you consider that the administration went through Snyder for someone to take over his program.   The powers that be decided on a different course of action, and let it go through Snyder.  I don't think he was a rubber stamp kind of person.

It has nothing to do with being a "rubber stamp kind of person." What I'm saying is that he isn't infallible regarding coaching personnel decisions. Your assertion that Snyder's seal of approval is as good as gold is a tad flawed considering some of the buffoons we had coaching at this program recently. The guy hit some serious homeruns, decidedly (Bielema, B Stoops, Bennett), but had some flailing strikeouts as well (Elliott, Cosh, Hudson).

It happens everywhere, but it was still his program, and ultimately, the administration wanted his blessing on the coaching prospect.  Sure, you can pick duds at any time.  I'm not sure we picked a "dud".

[greasd up deaf guy]

He also never fired a coach. How did that work out the last couple of years?

Means little when you consider that the administration went through Snyder for someone to take over his program.   The powers that be decided on a different course of action, and let it go through Snyder.  I don't think he was a rubber stamp kind of person.

It has nothing to do with being a "rubber stamp kind of person." What I'm saying is that he isn't infallible regarding coaching personnel decisions. Your assertion that Snyder's seal of approval is as good as gold is a tad flawed considering some of the buffoons we had coaching at this program recently. The guy hit some serious homeruns, decidedly (Bielema, B Stoops, Bennett), but had some flailing strikeouts as well (Elliott, Cosh, Hudson).

It happens everywhere, but it was still his program, and ultimately, the administration wanted his blessing on the coaching prospect.  Sure, you can pick duds at any time.  I'm not sure we picked a "dud".

Neither am I. All I'm saying is the Snyder ringing endorsement isn't a guarantee.