Ron Prince e-mail to boosters (late '06 or early '07)

[michigancat]

gotta go with dax here.  logic says yes they are another game.  But they aren't to our fanbase.

Not to mention recruiting.

Who did we get from the KC area that was good when we were good?  Just curious dominating ku and MU got us.

[kougar24]

Of course burning the local bridges was stupid. But that has nothing whatsoever to do with circling the Kansas game. Bill only circles the Kansas game because he knows our retarded fanbase values it above all others.

That's part of it, but I refuse to believe that's the only reason Bill ever circled that game.  He's not that dumb.

It wouldn't be him being dumb. He's just aware of how dumb K-State fans are, by and large.

[catzacker]

KC Area:
Travis Ochs
Scott Edmonds
Andrew Shull
D Sproles
John Robertson
Brian Casey
Andy Eby
Ryan Lilja

Wichita/Other KS:
Rashaad Washington
Lamar Chapman
Mark Simoneau
Justin Montgomery
T Newman
Jon McGraw
Nyle Wiren
Joe Rheem
Jamie Rheem
Monte Beisel
cliff holloman
nick warren
shad meier
jermaine berry


STL:
Melvin Williams
Milton Proctor

..i'm probably missing a few, but it's a decent list.  if those kids are coming out now, do they go to KSU or ku or MU?   

[michigancat]

KC Area:
Travis Ochs
Scott Edmonds
Andrew Shull
D Sproles
John Robertson
Brian Casey
Andy Eby
Ryan Lilja

Wichita/Other KS:
Rashaad Washington
Lamar Chapman
Mark Simoneau
Justin Montgomery
T Newman
Jon McGraw
Nyle Wiren
Joe Rheem
Jamie Rheem
Monte Beisel
cliff holloman
nick warren
shad meier
jermaine berry


STL:
Melvin Williams
Milton Proctor

..i'm probably missing a few, but it's a decent list.  if those kids are coming out now, do they go to KSU or ku or MU?   

You could probably get a similar list for MU and ku over that span.  Probably.

[Del Tremens]

KC Area:
Travis Ochs
Scott Edmonds
Andrew Shull
D Sproles
John Robertson
Brian Casey
Andy Eby
Ryan Lilja

Wichita/Other KS:
Rashaad Washington
Lamar Chapman
Mark Simoneau
Justin Montgomery
T Newman
Jon McGraw
Nyle Wiren
Joe Rheem
Jamie Rheem
Monte Beisel
cliff holloman
nick warren
shad meier
jermaine berry


STL:
Melvin Williams
Milton Proctor

..i'm probably missing a few, but it's a decent list.  if those kids are coming out now, do they go to KSU or ku or MU?   

You could probably get a similar list for MU and ku over that span.  Probably.

Was Winbush from the KC area?

[fatty fat fat]

You could probably get a similar list for MU and ku over that span.  Probably.

not really.

[wes mantooth]

You could probably get a similar list for MU and ku over that span.  Probably.

not really.

this

[mjrod]

KC Area:
Travis Ochs
Scott Edmonds
Andrew Shull
D Sproles
John Robertson
Brian Casey
Andy Eby
Ryan Lilja

Wichita/Other KS:
Rashaad Washington
Lamar Chapman
Mark Simoneau
Justin Montgomery
T Newman
Jon McGraw
Nyle Wiren
Joe Rheem
Jamie Rheem
Monte Beisel
cliff holloman
nick warren
shad meier
jermaine berry


STL:
Melvin Williams
Milton Proctor

..i'm probably missing a few, but it's a decent list.  if those kids are coming out now, do they go to KSU or ku or MU?   

You could probably get a similar list for MU and ku over that span.  Probably.

Please.. feel free to show us what they got during that time..

[swish1]

the simple fact of the matter is that when we were able to beat mu and ku that meant we could beat isu and could compete with cu and nu.  it also helped with local recruiting which was huge b/c of those players mentioned above.  they were pretty much the only local players that actually had any success in the nfl and went to a local college.  basically if you can consistently win those two games your program will improve over time.

[michigancat]

You could probably get a similar list for MU and ku over that span.  Probably.

not really.

In KC?  Yeah you could.  Most of their good players would come after 99 (notice Sproles is the only post-99 signing on zack's list).  And Shull wasn't from KC.

We never "dominated" KC recruiting.  Hilarious revisionist history.

[fatty fat fat]

You could probably get a similar list for MU and ku over that span.  Probably.

not really.

In KC?  Yeah you could.  Most of their good players would come after 99 (notice Sproles is the only post-99 signing on zack's list).  And Shull wasn't from KC.

We never "dominated" KC recruiting.  Hilarious revisionist history.

yes we did. 23-1 vs ku/MU from 1993-2003. I guess we just magically pulled it off?

[catzacker]

You could probably get a similar list for MU and ku over that span.  Probably.

not really.

In KC?  Yeah you could.  Most of their good players would come after 99 (notice Sproles is the only post-99 signing on zack's list).  And Shull wasn't from KC.

We never "dominated" KC recruiting.  Hilarious revisionist history.

true, Shull was from Webb City, but I didn't know where to categorize him. 

Your point about post 99 signings only highlights the recruiting failures after the '98 exodus.  I'd argue that ku and mu could have had a similar list between the time frame of '95/96 - '99 but it wouldn't have included the all Big 12 players that are on my
list, and I think that's the point. 
Then:  KSU gets Newman, ku gets Harrison Hill
Now: ku gets Jake Sharp, KSU gets Jeremy Reed

From a talent standponit, we dominated KS and got good playeres out of Missouri.  The quantity of players that went to ku might have been the same, but not the quantity.  KS and MO aren't the end all be all of recruiting for KSU, but it should be a part of it (it almost has to be a part of it).

[ksu_FAN]

true, Shull was from Webb City, but I didn't know where to categorize him. 

Your point about post 99 signings only highlights the recruiting failures after the '98 exodus.  I'd argue that ku and mu could have had a similar list between the time frame of '95/96 - '99 but it wouldn't have included the all Big 12 players that are on my list, and I think that's the point. 

Then:  KSU gets Newman, ku gets Harrison Hill
Now: ku gets Jake Sharp, KSU gets Jeremy Reed

From a talent standponit, we dominated KS and got good playeres out of Missouri.  The quantity of players that went to ku might have been the same, but not the quantity.  KS and MO aren't the end all be all of recruiting for KSU, but it should be a part of it (it almost has to be a part of it).

Exactly.  And its become clear to me our recruiting will always be a mix.  Local kids, highly populated football talent areas (TX, FL, etc.), and JUCOs.  If we are successful with all three, we can be a national caliber team.  2 of the 3, maybe a Big 12 North contender.  1 out of 3, squeek into bowl games.  0 out of 3, well what we've seen the last 5 years basically.  But we're a school that has to recruit from a wide base.

[sonofdaxjones]

LOL at this thread . . . and LOL at Kougs trying to tell us he knows what goes on in Snyders mind.

That's some funny $hit right there.

 

[kougar24]

You could probably get a similar list for MU and ku over that span.  Probably.

not really.

In KC?  Yeah you could.  Most of their good players would come after 99 (notice Sproles is the only post-99 signing on zack's list).  And Shull wasn't from KC.

We never "dominated" KC recruiting.  Hilarious revisionist history.

yes we did. 23-1 vs ku/MU from 1993-2003. I guess we just magically pulled it off?

No, we pulled it off with kids from TX and FL, and were helped by the fact that the ku and MU programs (primarily ku) were in a total state of disarray...kind of like we are now.

[ksu_FAN]

No, we pulled it off with kids from TX and FL, and were helped by the fact that the ku and MU programs (primarily ku) were in a total state of disarray...kind of like we are now.

I think a good measure would be to look back at all-league players (1st, 2nd, HM) and where they came from. 

You'll probably find there were quite a few that came out of HS from TX and FL.  And quite a few from JUCOs.  And quite a few HS kids from the surrounding area and Kansas.  And other HS kids from different spots (OH and AZ to name a couple).  But there is no singular trend of most guys coming from one area, our best teams had a mix.  Always.

[catzacker]

You could probably get a similar list for MU and ku over that span.  Probably.

not really.

In KC?  Yeah you could.  Most of their good players would come after 99 (notice Sproles is the only post-99 signing on zack's list).  And Shull wasn't from KC.

We never "dominated" KC recruiting.  Hilarious revisionist history.

yes we did. 23-1 vs ku/MU from 1993-2003. I guess we just magically pulled it off?

No, we pulled it off with kids from TX and FL, and were helped by the fact that the ku and MU programs (primarily ku) were in a total state of disarray...kind of like we are now.

This is true, but can you remember KS kids that went somewhere not named KSU that were successful.  We got talent...whether it was from KS or TX or FL, we got it.  ku is getting TX kids…but also the KS kids they are getting are panning out (Sharp, Laptad, Meier, Hawkinson, Zlantik, Blakesly, Stuckey).  KSU isnt' getting TX kids and we're getting KS kids like Kaleb Drinkgern.   We're missing entirely too much, everywhere, but since we do it in our own fracking state it makes it worse, imo.

[cireksu]

we pulled it off with NFL talent regardless of where they came from.  Mostly not from ks.

[cireksu]

Up until a few years ago we had something like 3rd or 4th most nfl players after Nubb, Tx and Probably OU.

[Joker]

You could probably get a similar list for MU and ku over that span.  Probably.

not really.

In KC?  Yeah you could.  Most of their good players would come after 99 (notice Sproles is the only post-99 signing on zack's list).  And Shull wasn't from KC.

We never "dominated" KC recruiting.  Hilarious revisionist history.

yes we did. 23-1 vs ku/MU from 1993-2003. I guess we just magically pulled it off?

No, we pulled it off with kids from TX and FL, and were helped by the fact that the ku and MU programs (primarily ku) were in a total state of disarray...kind of like we are now.

Did you even look at the list zacker posted?

[KansasForever]

Ran across this e-mail from Ron Prince to KSU supporters, which lays a great deal of blame at the feet of former coaching staff.  Read it for yourself and see what you think:

Thank you for addressing this with me directly, I really appreciate it. I've had the chance to meet you and get to know you a little bit and your reaction is not unexpected.
>
>This is a very lengthy response. I try to respond to every letter, email and call so that you do not have to go to tabloid sources for information. Please feel free to respond after reading it. This is a very critical moment in the growth/development of this program and I want you to decide for yourself with as much information as I can give you.
>
>My first objective before the discussions with the administration & upon arrival in Manhattan was to look at "why". Why would a coach retire after so much success? Why did the team, after winning the Big XII championship finish in last place in the north division two straight years? The bottom line is that there is never one thing, its many things or everything. From planning, to performance, to attitudes and to drive/hunger. I asked a lot of questions, did a lot of listening, reading and watching. Well, I set a plan to do the following:
>
>1) Fix recruiting. Everything from who, what, where, why and how. The roster was about to undergo a deep transition because of the next two senior classes being devoid of so many players who "signed" but never made it to Manhattan or players who couldn't hold it together enough to stay in school. We just didn't think we had enough talent to sustain winning in the future and evaluated that was a main difference in the recent teams and those teams that won the Big 12 north titles.
>
>Recruiting is not "sales" and "fast-talking", its a plan. Parents commit their kids to us for 4 years and their decisions are the life-blood of a college football program. From emphasis, to evaluation, to building the talent pool, to strategizing and finally "the fit".
>
>I know we are on the right track from both a "tool/talent" aspect as well as a "make-up" standpoint. While we will be a young team again this year, the future is very bright.
>
>2) Immediately fix the adult/student relationship in the building. Some of asst coaches & people in the Vanier Complex at K-State let all of you down, bottom line. Beside recruiting, there were other issues (that are not appropriate for me to repeat) that were occuring and those things were eroding the confidence of the players, and discouraging people in the program who were working passionately to "win". There were some people just going thru the motions and some simply not even moving. Understand the standard that was set at K-State(you got everyone's attn in college football) and now all the competition is reacting to that standard and some people in our organization rested on their laurels. I asked some very close friends of mine to come and help me get this program turned around. They did. In fact, I tried to warn them how hard this was going to be and that it could effectively be viewed as the toughest job they would ever tackle and it may cost us in ways we may not now know. They came anyhow. They believed in what we were here to do. This year took its toll on everyone involved, so we could get back into the post season, which was a "minimum" requirement for the organization but unexpected by anyone evaluating the program. Some "experts" (including media) thought we would win as few as one game.
>
>I believe, just as my old boss at Virginia believes, that you reward and advance those people who sacrifice and accomplish "above and beyond" the call of duty. That is what has occured with the asst coaches this offseason. I feel very proud about what we accomplished this season, considering where we came from, but we are not National Champions at K-State yet! These coaches and others put the program on their backs and carried it to a bowl game, winning season, win over Texas, two terrific recruiting classes despite the fact that EVERYONE had us dead-in-the-water picked consensus last place pre-season. Could everyone be wrong? Why did everyone say "it couldn't be done"? No, there was reason that the team was in legitimate danger of finishing last for the third straight year, but a small group of people changed all that. I am grateful to those people and loyal to them. That's why, I will not stand in the way of those coaches and their families being rewarded by advancement(Tim Horton became an offensive coordinator), financial reward(Raheem Morris Tampa almost doubling his salary) or lifestyle(Abby Boustead to pursue her MBA to run a company someday). They basically did not see their families and put life on hold for a year. I told them that it would be this hard and it was. They kept fighting, yet others just sat.
>
>The football profession took notice of the work we did this year. Many, many programs came in pursuit of all our coaches(including the head coach) for the incredible job we did this year and for what people know we will do in the future(key point). Some of them could not say no and it would be irresponsible for us(K-State) to compete with NFL type salaries, especially when we have infrastructure issues to address for the long-term success of this program. The changing economics in asst coaching salaries are due to a couple of factors. First, with the success of Tony Dungy, Lovie Smith, Sean Payton and Herm Edwards, many programs(college & pro) are wanting to find the next terrific coach who can do what these gentlemen have done. Some of our coaches that did not leave(James Franklin/Tim Tibesar/Matt Wallerstedt), but could have, fit that mold and will be sought in the future. Second, the salaries that some programs(Alabama-2.5 million pool per yr) are now paying for asst coaches has changed, forever, the economic landscape and all of their direct competitors(SEC & teams they recruit against) have taken an aggressive position "to compete/survive" financially with them (Pat Washington going to Miss State to recruit his hometown of Mobile, Al).
>
>Even coaches that haven't coached a snap here at K-State, who are excellent coaches, once identified with us, they became targets(Wes McGriff going to Miami). In years to come we have others who will be as aggressively pursued, because they are very good at what they do and have a work-ethic that is know in our business as being a "grinder". These coaches are no different than the young person trying to make partner in a law, advertising or consulting firm.
>
>If this sounds strange to you, go back and look at coach Snyder's tenure (and before) and you'll see some of the best coaches in college & professional football were once asst coaches here. Some were successful and well known here and for some it didn't work out and they had more success elsewhere. Its part of our business. This is a major factor about being the head coach at K-State(asst coach turnover) that I knew before I took the job. Its my job to replace them with other great coaches, not just guys who won't leave. I've got news for you, we have.
>
>Frank Leonard, who we just hired to coach the tight ends, turned down multiple lucrative NFL coaching jobs to come to K-State this offseason for much less. He's spent the last few years with the best football organization in the world-the New England Patriots. He's here because he believes in what we're doing.
>
>Dave Brock, who will coach our wr's, turned down a job to coach with Rutgers to come here(and he's from New Jersey!). Watch the Univ of North Carolina in the next couple of seasons, because as recruiting coordinator, he assembled two of the best classes in their schools' history that coach Bunting elected to red-shirt and now Butch Davis will reap the rewards for.
>
>We've had coaches (Ricky Rahne and our newest defensive graduate assistant) give up their full-time coaching jobs at other places to come and work for free as graduate assistants here at K-State because they know we will do it right, we will win and if they work hard-they too will advance.
>
>All these guys are rising super stars in the business, you've just never heard of them. You shouldn't, that's not your job-its mine.
>
>There's no free lunch for these coaches. We work hard, long hours with much stress and pressure. We wouldn't have it any other way. Its the only way to get where we want to go. If coaches don't or can't perform they know it causes the organization to suffer. But they all have wives and families they must provide for and students at K-State they are responsible to & for.
>
>3) Evaluate all aspects of the program.
>We have completed a year long evaluation of every department and every aspect of our program. I made no changes in the support staff on our arrival, although it was my right to do so. I did not want to come in and fire everyone with no chance to evaluate their abilities. I'm glad that we waited.
>
>We have terrific people in the support staff who are working hard and dedicated to excellence and they too will be highly sought after. Unfortunately, we discovered some who are not and will not. I will not go into the specifics of some of those evaluations but we have some of the very best people I have ever been around in some areas and unfortunately in other areas the performances has been so low for so long that change must be made.
>
>I am evaluated on the performance of this organization on whole and on game day. We are committed to being the best organization in college football. Period. I need people who will support me in that mission. Good enough never is. The standards have been raised by the last 18 yrs and everyone in our organization must perform his/her job for us to win.
>
>Every aspect of the program contributes to winning and we can not accept a refusal to perform, lack of performance nor any underminding of the program on any level. For example, we inherited a team, last december, in which 43 of the 85 scholarship players were on academic warning. Meaning, if they had a repeat performance in the classroom, they could be lost, and certainly not graduate. Compound this with the players who had the football skills to finish last, for two straight years and we only had ONE player on the entire team that I could promote for any scholar-athlete award. Those are facts. Changes were going to be necessary for us to survive immediately but also to look parents in-the-eye for the recruitment of their sons. I'm proud to report, that this december, we had 6 players with a 4.0 gpa and 32 players OVER a 3.0gpa. Those 32 were named to the Big 12 commissioner's Honor Roll. On a team that finished 2nd in the north division in our first year! Had we not been willing to change, we may not have been able to win a single game because so many players may have been lost. I very proud of everyone associated with the academic support aspect because they were able, willing & excited to face the brutal truth and look for ways to reach our goals.
>
>4) Set the standards & demand compliance to them.
>I know how "change-adverse" we are in this part of the country(I'm from here) but throughout our program, we have addressed similar issues. We have seen vast improvement and in other areas we have met with resistance, coupled with a lack of performance.
>
>Many people outside of the organization do not know the importance of some positions and what they entail these days because of what those roles may sounded like when they were in high school or college many years ago. Everything we do is important and we have taken an entire year to evaluate the job performance of everyone.
>
>Many people believed that there would only now be one successful period of K-State football. In fact, most of them, didn't believe there would ever be a successful period. Most of them are quick to remind me, how awful K-State was in football not so long ago. I know! I was here! Who would want to go back to those "low moments" and "low expectations", not me. Many of these people are refered to in the title of Bill Snyder's book, "They said it couldn't be done."
>
>I reject such negativity, just as Bill Snyder did in 1988. I will not submit to it and will not allow it in this organization. Change is uncomfortable for some, I understand that. However, I'm asking that you look at the last 14 months and as change occurs, use the body-of-work to compare it against. People in this organization are expected and excited to perform, bottom-line.
>
>The 1982 Independence Bowl trophy was not on display with all the others until we arrived. We will honor the past but will not live in it.
>
>5) Plan and expect to win
>We are in the middle of our strategic planning phase for the upcoming year right now. These 6 weeks after signing date but before spring practice are the most important during the year. It is during this time we must decide who we will pursue(specifically) for next year and in concept what recruits our systems need in subsequent years. We will decide on the tactics and strategies that we will implement for next season now, so we have the time to train, develop, practice those methods that will help us win next year.
>That kind of specific planning and detail of agenda allows us to do a couple of things. One) our coaches to research all of the possible scenarios that could come up with on our opponents and to compare notes with many of our colleagues who might encounter the same. Two) allow our players to train and develop the specific skills they need so we do not waste time. For example, we were so out of shape last year, we could not sustain the tempo of a single practice and we fell further behind the competition as many of our players failed our basic conditioning test! It took us mid-way thru the year to "catch-up" and we lost some valuable training and therefore game-winning opportunities. That will not happen this season.
>
>I have never been more excited about a team or season in my career as a player or coach. I continue to tell recruits and coaches that K-State is the best coaching job in the country for the following reasons and I'm determined to win at the highest level here because of the following:
>One) we have a small but loyal fan base that demonstrates its love for K-State around every turn. 32K at last yrs spring game-never done before. 30K at this year's bowl game-has become the standard. 50k at every home game and unbelievable support for road games. This includes our student body!
>Two) we have the best administration in the country. They have invested their time and efforts to help recruit and support these student-athletes & coaches like no other place in the country. Rutgers, Marshall and others consistently point to the Jon Wefald, Kansas State model for university success.
>Three) Big 12 divisional play. We are so fortunate to have geographical division play in our conference. We have a chance each year to compete for the north division title. By winning that game, you are invited to the BCS tournament. That is our mission. We are putting our team together from a talent and make-up stand point to accomplish this.
>Four) we can attract terrific players to Manhattan/K-State. This game is about people and their relationships with each other, bottom line. Talented players from high school and junior college have come here and there is a reputation nation-wide for the expectation of excellence here. The kids that are in high school do not recall the dreary old days of failure, thank goodness. They don't fear, they don't despair. They know K-State as a nationally respected football program. Everyone they encounter must represent that when they visit.
>
>In conclusion, surely there are some that would like to see us fail. One group would be those that support our competitors' programs. I get that, it makes sense to me. Others may like to us fail for a variety of other reasons that are difficult to pin-down, be wary of those. However, there so many who want us and need us to succeed that we must stay focused on those individuals. We have a plan, we are demanding, we have integrity, we are fair and we will continue to succeed.
>Thank you for your time.
>Go State!
>
>Ron Prince
>Head Football Coach
>Kansas State University
>
>[email protected]
>800 992-9053
>785 532-7956 fax
>inside.kstatesports.com

The one thing I got out of that is Ron Prince needs a lesson in proper semi-colon usage.  

[Thin Blue Line]

Can you say, "Black Mafia"?