Date: 15/08/25 - 13:57 PM   48060 Topics and 694399 Posts

Author Topic: OMG GM  (Read 5565 times)

March 07, 2009, 01:59:38 PM
Reply #30

AzCat

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The U.S. needs more rail infrastructure before they can even THINK about converting to passenger trains as a main source of transport.

That still misses the main point: commuter rail only works well where population density is immense.  Thus before it can become widespread in the US we'll need to bulldoze the suburbs and force the population into small spaces near train stations.  In order to accomplish that the government must first make it so expensive to live in detached single family homes and commute via private vehicles that such is unaffordable for all but the very wealthy.  Of course once the troublesome middle class has been priced out of those markets and warehoused in vertical apartments there'll be that much more open space for the wealthy to enjoy. 
Ladies & gentlemen, I present: The Problem

March 07, 2009, 03:15:50 PM
Reply #31

michigancat

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The U.S. needs more rail infrastructure before they can even THINK about converting to passenger trains as a main source of transport.

That still misses the main point: commuter rail only works well where population density is immense.  Thus before it can become widespread in the US we'll need to bulldoze the suburbs and force the population into small spaces near train stations.  In order to accomplish that the government must first make it so expensive to live in detached single family homes and commute via private vehicles that such is unaffordable for all but the very wealthy.  Of course once the troublesome middle class has been priced out of those markets and warehoused in vertical apartments there'll be that much more open space for the wealthy to enjoy. 

Again, our cities wouldn't be so spread out without federal highway funds.

March 07, 2009, 07:33:31 PM
Reply #32

sys

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Thus before it can become widespread in the US we'll need to bulldoze the suburbs and force the population into small spaces near train stations.  In order to accomplish that the government must first make it so expensive to live in detached single family homes and commute via private vehicles that such is unaffordable for all but the very wealthy.

michcat nails it, azcat left nursing his wounds yet again.


if us gov'ments at all levels stopped subsidizing automobile use, mass transit would take off in the high-density parts of the us.
"these are no longer “games” in the commonly accepted sense of the term. these are free throw shooting contests leavened by the occasional sprint to the other end of the floor."

March 07, 2009, 09:26:55 PM
Reply #33

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US residents wouldn't be spread out so much if our country weren't so darn big and there weren't so much space!!   :frown:

March 07, 2009, 09:28:28 PM
Reply #34

michigancat

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US residents wouldn't be spread out so much if our country weren't so darn big and there weren't so much space!!   :frown:

I'm talking about urban/suburban areas in particular.

March 07, 2009, 09:54:17 PM
Reply #35

FBWillie

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MC, 

Your post are so &@#%ing stupid, I honestly thought you were fishing.

Sincerely,

FB
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March 07, 2009, 10:08:47 PM
Reply #36

michigancat

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MC, 

Your post are so fracking stupid, I honestly thought you were fishing.

Sincerely,

FB

Aren't you the car salesman?  Would make sense.

March 07, 2009, 11:21:56 PM
Reply #37

FBWillie

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MC, 

Your post are so fracking stupid, I honestly thought you were fishing.

Sincerely,

FB

Aren't you the car salesman?  Would make sense.

Nope;  I just don't see where me thinking you're a dumb crap means I support the GM bailout.   And thinking Highways are built so that GM, or any car company for that matter, is directly pumping $$ into the car manufacturers pocket is a dumb crap way of thinking.   
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March 08, 2009, 08:06:07 AM
Reply #38

michigancat

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MC, 

Your post are so fracking stupid, I honestly thought you were fishing.

Sincerely,

FB

Aren't you the car salesman?  Would make sense.

Nope;  I just don't see where me thinking you're a dumb crap means I support the GM bailout.   And thinking Highways are built so that GM, or any car company for that matter, is directly pumping $$ into the car manufacturers pocket is a dumb crap way of thinking.  

I didn't say it was the same as directly pumping money into their pockets.  Did you not read all my posts?

March 08, 2009, 10:21:57 AM
Reply #39

sys

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fb seems really stupid.  good to know.
"these are no longer “games” in the commonly accepted sense of the term. these are free throw shooting contests leavened by the occasional sprint to the other end of the floor."

March 08, 2009, 11:32:42 AM
Reply #40

FBWillie

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I stopped after this:


I don't get how people who support the government building roads can be pissed about the government giving money to an auto maker.

:dunno:


maybe I'm reading it wrong;  but I shouldn't be pissed about GM getting my tax $, when I think GM is crap and needs to go bankrupt; but I should be pissed because I'm driving my Honda on nice highways funded by Tax $$.

So, please elaborate and enlighten all of us; dipcrap. 
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March 08, 2009, 11:36:52 AM
Reply #41

Kat Kid

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Idea:

Cars are durable goods and people won't "just find someone else" to buy a car from, they just won't buy a car.  It isn't like GM will just sell its enormous infastructure/car dealerships/future liabilities/workforce to Nissan and everything will carry on.  The failure of GM will create an ENORMOUS inefficiency in the market (there will be people who are able to work and skilled without anything to do etc.) and while for someone who has easily transferable skills like an IT guy it would just be as simple as moving (frictional unemployment) this would create an enormous glut of structural unemployment (GM Detroit auto-workers are not going to up and move to Monterrey and work for less money for Ford or to Japan etc.) which still exists despite whatever that moron Tom Friedman says.

As has been previously said, without even getting in to the full multiplier effect of GM's failure on the auto parts/steel etc. industries it will be an enormous cluster-f if GM goes.  I mean it is conceivable that it may be cheaper to let GM fail and then facilitate a buyer with some govt. $$, but there is no private entity in the world remotely positioned to pick up the pieces for even nickels on the dollar from GM's failure.  The credit crisis has put everyone in a position to avoid any risk, so not only can GM not dig themselves out of this, no other company can help themselves by vulturing off of GM to get out of this.  The global auto market is franked.  The GLOBAL market for credit is franked.

I'm not saying any of this is ideal and I am not at all excited about the government doing any of this, but go talk to World Bank about how they have rescued economies like Japan, Korea, Brasil or Argentina when their banks failed.  Buyout city, then turn it back to private investors.  Pretty much the only way.
ksufanscopycat my friends.

March 08, 2009, 11:56:20 AM
Reply #42

FBWillie

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Nonsense.  Do you really believe that multimillion dollar plants are just going to sit empty?   If GM did cease to exist, something/someone would purchase the plant/equipment and Detroit would be pumping out cars still.   

Most likely scenario: GM goes under, everyone loses their job; GM re-opens under new management a week later, everyone's back to work within a month, without unions telling a button pusher they're worth $30/hour; they'll only be paid 15$ an hour, all the employees default on their loans, etc, becuase they're dipcraps and they are living in houses & driving vehicles that factory workers should not be able to afford.   Banks in the detrioit area are screwed over; but the rest of the nation's banks will be fine. 

GM will now be successful as they don't have the overhead they once did and can afford to sell cars cheaper.  Toyota and Honda are now fracked because they can't compete with the low priced american made cars, but the entire country can buy new cars from an american made source.

Banks will eventually rebound, or if they don't new banks will move in, because there's an entire factory of "skilled" labors working & living in mobil homes or apartments, that need to buy that $50,000 house to get back on their feet.   


The system will be rebalanced after a couple of years.   People will be getting paid what their worth & as long as banks don't give loans to high risk people, banks will rebound.

Capitalism is like a forrest.   It will grow for several years and if there are no major fires along they way, dense brush and dead crap will accumulate until there's a huge fracking fire that wipes the slate clean for it to start all over.   If this forrest doesn't burn down now, It will just be more fuel for a larger fire down the road.

So eat a dick all you haters.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2009, 11:58:03 AM by FBWillie »
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March 08, 2009, 01:42:04 PM
Reply #43

Kat Kid

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fb.  Despite what you may think, people that are smart don't buy a new car every other year.  When people stop spending money like morons, they just keep their car for 10 years.  Cars are not like food, you cut back big time in lean times.  GM is not going to be bought up quickly 1. because no one has the money to buy one of the biggest companies in the world with the credit market as is (assuming no govt. assistance here or overseas)  2. the car market is completely dicked for the foreseeable future.
ksufanscopycat my friends.

March 08, 2009, 01:46:34 PM
Reply #44

chum1

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Most importantly, everyone at any level of the auto industry is a slimy piece of sh*t.

March 08, 2009, 04:57:18 PM
Reply #45

AzCat

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fb.  Despite what you may think, people that are smart don't buy a new cars every other year ever.  

FYP
Ladies & gentlemen, I present: The Problem

March 08, 2009, 05:44:02 PM
Reply #46

FBWillie

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fb.  Despite what you may think, people that are smart don't buy a new car every other year.  When people stop spending money like morons, they just keep their car for 10 years.  Cars are not like food, you cut back big time in lean times.  GM is not going to be bought up quickly 1. because no one has the money to buy one of the biggest companies in the world with the credit market as is (assuming no govt. assistance here or overseas)  2. the car market is completely dicked for the foreseeable future.

1. Your assumption that even half of the country that can afford a new car could be labeled as intellegent or even smart is humorous to say the least.   

An intelligent person would also stop driving a suburban that gets 10 miles to the gallon when gas is 3.50/ per but people still drove them as long as they could afford it. 

My point is people are always going to live to the very edge of there means as long as they can.  Aircraft employees are still hurting from the Boeing strike; not because they were on 3 day work weeks for 3 months, but because they've developed a lifestyle based off a 60 hour work with with 20 hours of that being time and a half.   What kind of moron would set their budget based off of income that is not guaranteed.... like overtime?  Nearly every person that works in that industry... that's who.  They're the middle class of Wichita, and no one is cleared to work overtime.  They're still hurting even though they're back to work full time.   When things even out in a couple of years, and they're back to work full time...   Everyone WILL go buy a new car, because they think they can.  Along with other crap they don't need.  because they want it.

2. People are still making $$.  Not to the extreme that they once were, but someone out there is still raking it in.    GM will not cease to be a company regardless of it still being GM or if someone buys them out.  You believe the media too much. 

3.  The auto market is dicked for the foreseable future because everyone is dicked.   The sooner everything crashes, the sooner everything will be built back up.   The bubble is going to burst, how much it drags everything down is dependant on how large that bubble gets.   Let it burst now.
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March 08, 2009, 05:45:31 PM
Reply #47

FBWillie

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Most importantly, everyone at any level of the auto industry is a slimy piece of sh*t.

No slimy'r than any other industry.   People in general are slimy pieces of crap.  The sooner people realize that, the less bitter they will be when they get dicked over for being dumb asses.
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March 08, 2009, 08:29:26 PM
Reply #48

Kat Kid

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You're right fbwillie, no big problem.  Banks will fail, GM will fail and all those rich venture capitalists will just swoop in to make everything happy again.

Never mind that GM is an enormous, out-dated, crap business model behemoth!  We'll just slash salary and still be competitive!  Won't need any bailouts or any subsidies to compete when every other government on Earth is bailing the crap out of their manufacturing base/banking industries.  We'll compete because we're 'murrican and we're just f'ing better!

lol's at your entire world view if you can even call it that.
ksufanscopycat my friends.

March 08, 2009, 09:16:00 PM
Reply #49

Thin Blue Line

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fb.  Despite what you may think, people that are smart don't buy a new cars every other year ever.  

FYP

Who the hell would buy a "new" car anyway. They depriciate way too much when you drive them off the lot. It makes MUCH better sense to buy a year old model, or at least a demo model, with about 10,000 miles on it and keep it to at least the end of the warranty/extended warranty. Unless, that is, you're a complete ignoramus.

March 08, 2009, 09:17:06 PM
Reply #50

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You two do realize that whether or not federal bailouts happen is almost entirely a moot point don't you?  The sheer volume of derivatives contracts outstanding coupled with the fact that parties to same stand ahead of all other creditors in US bankruptcy courts is going to crush the economy if things don't turn around pronto.  If that cascade starts, and judging by AIG's results it might well already be underway, the collapse will be far worse than anything the world has ever seen.  No amount of hot-off-the-presses Monopoly money will stop it. 
Ladies & gentlemen, I present: The Problem

March 08, 2009, 09:53:58 PM
Reply #51

Thin Blue Line

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You two do realize that whether or not federal bailouts happen is almost entirely a moot point don't you?  The sheer volume of derivatives contracts outstanding coupled with the fact that parties to same stand ahead of all other creditors in US bankruptcy courts is going to crush the economy if things don't turn around pronto.  If that cascade starts, and judging by AIG's results it might well already be underway, the collapse will be far worse than anything the world has ever seen.  No amount of hot-off-the-presses Monopoly money will stop it. 

You might as well  :banghead:. It will hurt less.

March 08, 2009, 10:44:29 PM
Reply #52

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You two do realize that whether or not federal bailouts happen is almost entirely a moot point don't you?  The sheer volume of derivatives contracts outstanding coupled with the fact that parties to same stand ahead of all other creditors in US bankruptcy courts is going to crush the economy if things don't turn around pronto.  If that cascade starts, and judging by AIG's results it might well already be underway, the collapse will be far worse than anything the world has ever seen.  No amount of hot-off-the-presses Monopoly money will stop it. 

Most of the time I think your are a fascist &@#%, but I completely agree with you on this point.

Bad stuff is just beginning. 

I honestly half expect to be moving the old lady and I into the folks basement by this time next year.  I am going to go drink now.

March 08, 2009, 11:02:30 PM
Reply #53

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You two do realize that whether or not federal bailouts happen is almost entirely a moot point don't you?  The sheer volume of derivatives contracts outstanding coupled with the fact that parties to same stand ahead of all other creditors in US bankruptcy courts is going to crush the economy if things don't turn around pronto.  If that cascade starts, and judging by AIG's results it might well already be underway, the collapse will be far worse than anything the world has ever seen.  No amount of hot-off-the-presses Monopoly money will stop it. 

Most of the time I think your are a fascist frack, but I completely agree with you on this point.

Bad stuff is just beginning. 

I honestly half expect to be moving the old lady and I into the folks basement by this time next year.  I am going to go drink now.

Actually Pete I'm an anti-fascist (and an anti-socialist, and an anti-communist) as I in no way want the government in bed with big business.  I'm pretty much against all "-isms" and "-ists". 
Ladies & gentlemen, I present: The Problem

March 08, 2009, 11:27:02 PM
Reply #54

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Oh and Pete, just so you'll be able to recognize fascism when it happens here's a great example.  Anyone still want to argue that the lefties are for the little guy?   :lol:
Ladies & gentlemen, I present: The Problem

March 08, 2009, 11:47:55 PM
Reply #55

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fb.  Despite what you may think, people that are smart don't buy a new cars every other year ever.  

FYP

Who the hell would buy a "new" car anyway. They depriciate way too much when you drive them off the lot. It makes MUCH better sense to buy a year old model, or at least a demo model, with about 10,000 miles on it and keep it to at least the end of the warranty/extended warranty. Unless, that is, you're a complete ignoramus.

Wait 3 years.  That's the point where a majority of the depreciation has run it's course.  That's the inflection point on the depreciation graph.  If you buy a new car, you may as well throw cash out the window every few miles, since that's essentially what you are doing by accepting the majority of the depreciation.

March 08, 2009, 11:56:54 PM
Reply #56

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You two do realize that whether or not federal bailouts happen is almost entirely a moot point don't you?  The sheer volume of derivatives contracts outstanding coupled with the fact that parties to same stand ahead of all other creditors in US bankruptcy courts is going to crush the economy if things don't turn around pronto.  If that cascade starts, and judging by AIG's results it might well already be underway, the collapse will be far worse than anything the world has ever seen.  No amount of hot-off-the-presses Monopoly money will stop it. 

Most of the time I think your are a fascist frack, but I completely agree with you on this point.

Bad stuff is just beginning. 

I honestly half expect to be moving the old lady and I into the folks basement by this time next year.  I am going to go drink smoke hash now.
ksufanscopycat my friends.

March 09, 2009, 12:19:50 AM
Reply #57

FBWillie

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You two do realize that whether or not federal bailouts happen is almost entirely a moot point don't you?  The sheer volume of derivatives contracts outstanding coupled with the fact that parties to same stand ahead of all other creditors in US bankruptcy courts is going to crush the economy if things don't turn around pronto.  If that cascade starts, and judging by AIG's results it might well already be underway, the collapse will be far worse than anything the world has ever seen.  No amount of hot-off-the-presses Monopoly money will stop it. 
pretty much what I've been say'n....   except it's too late, the bailouts have already come. 

You're right fbwillie, no big problem.  Banks will fail, GM will fail and all those rich venture capitalists will just swoop in to make everything happy again.

Never mind that GM is an enormous, out-dated, crap business model behemoth!  We'll just slash salary and still be competitive!  Won't need any bailouts or any subsidies to compete when every other government on Earth is bailing the crap out of their manufacturing base/banking industries.  We'll compete because we're 'murrican and we're just f'ing better!

lol's at your entire world view if you can even call it that.


GM's problem could be solved pretty easily.   They're failing because they're paying out more money to retiree's & current employees than any CEO could burn in a lifetime.  The lazy ass union has these "skilled workers" believing they're worth more than what they are.   If their jobs so &@#%ing horrible and underappreciated, they should be able to find a new job with no problem....  I mean, they are "skilled workers" right?   

&@#% the employees that didn't do crap for their retirement but believe someone else would take care of them.  Tell all new employees when their hired back they'll start at a competitive wage of half of what they were making and if they don't like it, find someone that will pay them what they want. 

It's not about being "'murican or just &@#%ing better".  It's about the opportunity that's there.   The factory won't stay empty.  People won't just sit on their ass when the $$ runs out.   And lifestyle's won't easily change.   People will always strive to have it better than they did 3 months ago.  And a bailout isn't doing anything but exchanging debt from one hand to the other; except it's being multiplied.

It'll be hard for a while, but its &@#%ing coming no matter what.   The sooner it happens the less damage it will create and the sooner people will get over it.   Another bailout isn't doing anything but delaying a crash.   It will come and it won't be the end of the world.
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March 09, 2009, 12:22:44 AM
Reply #58

FBWillie

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Oh and Pete, just so you'll be able to recognize fascism when it happens here's a great example.  Anyone still want to argue that the lefties are for the little guy?   :lol:

That article is BS.  Rich people don't exist, right KK?
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March 09, 2009, 12:35:19 AM
Reply #59

Kat Kid

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You two do realize that whether or not federal bailouts happen is almost entirely a moot point don't you?  The sheer volume of derivatives contracts outstanding coupled with the fact that parties to same stand ahead of all other creditors in US bankruptcy courts is going to crush the economy if things don't turn around pronto.  If that cascade starts, and judging by AIG's results it might well already be underway, the collapse will be far worse than anything the world has ever seen.  No amount of hot-off-the-presses Monopoly money will stop it. 
pretty much what I've been say'n....   except it's too late, the bailouts have already come. 

You're right fbwillie, no big problem.  Banks will fail, GM will fail and all those rich venture capitalists will just swoop in to make everything happy again.

Never mind that GM is an enormous, out-dated, crap business model behemoth!  We'll just slash salary and still be competitive!  Won't need any bailouts or any subsidies to compete when every other government on Earth is bailing the crap out of their manufacturing base/banking industries.  We'll compete because we're 'murrican and we're just f'ing better!

lol's at your entire world view if you can even call it that.


GM's problem could be solved pretty easily.   They're failing because they're paying out more money to retiree's & current employees than any CEO could burn in a lifetime.  The lazy ass union has these "skilled workers" believing they're worth more than what they are.   If their jobs so fracking horrible and underappreciated, they should be able to find a new job with no problem....  I mean, they are "skilled workers" right?   

frack the employees that didn't do crap for their retirement but believe someone else would take care of them.  Tell all new employees when their hired back they'll start at a competitive wage of half of what they were making and if they don't like it, find someone that will pay them what they want. 

It's not about being "'murican or just fracking better".  It's about the opportunity that's there.   The factory won't stay empty.  People won't just sit on their ass when the $$ runs out.   And lifestyle's won't easily change.   People will always strive to have it better than they did 3 months ago.  And a bailout isn't doing anything but exchanging debt from one hand to the other; except it's being multiplied.

It'll be hard for a while, but its fracking coming no matter what.   The sooner it happens the less damage it will create and the sooner people will get over it.   Another bailout isn't doing anything but delaying a crash.   It will come and it won't be the end of the world.


Yeah, that's pretty much the opposite of what every economist is saying.

As for your other two points 1. you're right the workers were getting paid too much, you know what else? the cars got a terrible reputation and the innovation lagged behind foreign auto.  They got stuck into a model that focused on trucks/suvs, GM made terrible redundant lines that cost them $$ and they are NEVER going to be able to compete with the labor markets of Mexico or India or China.  Those auto plants are going some place cheaper with cheaper talent.  People in the auto industry have skills.  Not just the people on the assembly line moron, but all of the engineers, draftsmen, fabrication guys, skilled welders that are largely based on the Detroit/automaker industry.  True, theoretically they could adapt and get other jobs.  BUT THERE AREN'T ANY FREAKING JOBS.  Nobodies taking on a project that hasn't worked in their industry and may or may not need to re-tool before they become a valued member of their team.

You can get your rocks off on trying to snort at the sit and pretend like nothing is wrong, but when GM fails it will be bad and no one is stepping in to clean them up except the govt.  No one has the power of the genie from Aladdin to pick up GM and put it in a different country with a more friendly business/labor environment where it belongs.

But carry on with your car salesman gig, sounds like you're doing great.
ksufanscopycat my friends.