OMG GM

[Bookcat]

In pre-market trading, GM shares fell 18 percent from Wednesday's close, to $1.80.

They're going to go out of business. I'm serious.

[steve dave]

They are exploring bankrup. right now but I think it is a ploy to get more money from the gov.  Either way they have no long term business plan and it would be best to just go under and save money.

[pissclams]

which of the multi-billion dollar loans that they've received gave it away  

and who cares if they go out of business, the government will buy them, restructure their debt, and then you too can claim ownership in a crappy car manufacturer.  

[Bookcat]

They need to go bankrupt. Doubt I would consider buying another one of their cars if they did that.

Gotta say, for a school car, my Grand Am performed nicely....but I know that for the most part GM churns out too many different crapty models that depreciate way too fast.

[LimestoneOutcropping]

How does the government go bankrupt?

[steve dave]

How does the government go bankrupt?

Just pretend like they don't owe anyone money   "pfffft, whatevs china, I don't remember you loaning me a $20"

[Pete]

They are damned if they do and damed if they don't.

If they go into bankruptcy, they get to shed all their pension liabilities to former employees...which is a hell of a thing to do to the workers who trusted and depended on them.....but it's really one of the very few ways to save the company.  crap story.

If they go out of business, then the retirees get nothing anyway....but this is the worst case scenario, which would hose the enconomy up pretty bad for awhile.  There are vast, vast numbers of businesses and jobs that depend upon the survival of GM.  From parts manufactures to steal producers to car dealers to mechanics, etc., etc.

Would be a really bad thing in the near term, but maybe necessary? 

[BigCat]

We (taxpayers) end up paying for it either way. Either the gov steps in and gives them the money now, or waits until they go bankrupt and has to step in and float all the banks. Probably best just to bite the bullet and give Detroit whatever they want now as opposed to picking up the pieces later.

I'm personally not for either of those ideas, but hey who am I... I'd hate to see the country lose an auto manufacturer, but when your business model SUCKS, you deserve to go out of business. It's the American way. Meanwhile, Toyota and Honda are hurting but at least they have their crap together and will weather the storm without asking for a handout.

[jeffy]

We (taxpayers) end up paying for it either way. Either the gov steps in and gives them the money now, or waits until they go bankrupt and has to step in and float all the banks. Probably best just to bite the bullet and give Detroit whatever they want now as opposed to picking up the pieces later.

I'm personally not for either of those ideas, but hey who am I... I'd hate to see the country lose an auto manufacturer, but when your business model SUCKS, you deserve to go out of business. It's the American way. Meanwhile, Toyota and Honda are hurting but at least they have their crap together and will weather the storm without asking for a handout.

No... It's better to pick up the pieces later.  Allowing them to go bankrupt only helps in the natural correction of the economy.  Other than the legal part of it, there is no difference between a big business making stupid decisions that cause it to go under vs someone stealing from a company (Enron) to make it go under.  In either case, the little people within the company suffer, but the direct suffering is mostly within (yes, there are contracts outside of GM that it would affect).  The void in the market would be filled.  People wouldn't stop buying cars because their favorite brand isn't there.  They would just go find another brand.

If you keep it from falling apart by pumping in money that doesn't exist, then you've spread that problem out to all sectors of the economy.  That's what the free market is.  Stupid decisions = failure.  Good decisions = success.

[BigCat]

We (taxpayers) end up paying for it either way. Either the gov steps in and gives them the money now, or waits until they go bankrupt and has to step in and float all the banks. Probably best just to bite the bullet and give Detroit whatever they want now as opposed to picking up the pieces later.

I'm personally not for either of those ideas, but hey who am I... I'd hate to see the country lose an auto manufacturer, but when your business model SUCKS, you deserve to go out of business. It's the American way. Meanwhile, Toyota and Honda are hurting but at least they have their crap together and will weather the storm without asking for a handout.

No... It's better to pick up the pieces later.  Allowing them to go bankrupt only helps in the natural correction of the economy.  Other than the legal part of it, there is no difference between a big business making stupid decisions that cause it to go under vs someone stealing from a company (Enron) to make it go under.  In either case, the little people within the company suffer, but the direct suffering is mostly within (yes, there are contracts outside of GM that it would affect).  The void in the market would be filled.  People wouldn't stop buying cars because their favorite brand isn't there.  They would just go find another brand.

If you keep it from falling apart by pumping in money that doesn't exist, then you've spread that problem out to all sectors of the economy.  That's what the free market is.  Stupid decisions = failure.  Good decisions = success.

I agree with this 100%, I guess I meant "let's just pay them and get it over with now" as kind of speaking from the mentality that we seem to have in approaching this whole crisis. Personally I'm all for letting the cards fall where they may. Only trouble with that is that people are so stupid and dependent on government as it is, that if you let that happen (letting all the banks, etc. go, things would get BAD in a hurry), people will turn around and demand the government to step in on an even BIGGER scale. Very scary. All we're doing now by pumping this &@#%ing monopoly money in the system is delaying the inevitable, and in fact making things worse when the crap finally does hit the fan.

[AzCat]

Only trouble with that is that people are so stupid and dependent on government as it is, that if you let that happen (letting all the banks, etc. go, things would get BAD in a hurry), people will turn around and demand the government to step in on an even BIGGER scale. Very scary. All we're doing now by pumping this fracking monopoly money in the system is delaying the inevitable, and in fact making things worse when the crap finally does hit the fan.

Which is, of course, precisely what a leftist anti-capitalist would want to happen.  First destroy the offending system, leave the population broke & begging for a solution, then provide one in the form of an benevolent nanny-state.  Of course that never ends well but our present overlords don't really seem to care.

[Pete]

Only trouble with that is that people are so stupid and dependent on government as it is, that if you let that happen (letting all the banks, etc. go, things would get BAD in a hurry), people will turn around and demand the government to step in on an even BIGGER scale. Very scary. All we're doing now by pumping this fracking monopoly money in the system is delaying the inevitable, and in fact making things worse when the crap finally does hit the fan.

Which is, of course, precisely what a leftist anti-capitalist would want to happen.  First destroy the offending system, leave the population broke & begging for a solution, then provide one in the form of an benevolent nanny-state.  Of course that never ends well but our present overlords don't really seem to care.

What would Jesus do?  Honest question.  Really.  Think about it and give a reasoned response.  TIA.

[steve dave]

Only trouble with that is that people are so stupid and dependent on government as it is, that if you let that happen (letting all the banks, etc. go, things would get BAD in a hurry), people will turn around and demand the government to step in on an even BIGGER scale. Very scary. All we're doing now by pumping this fracking monopoly money in the system is delaying the inevitable, and in fact making things worse when the crap finally does hit the fan.

Which is, of course, precisely what a leftist anti-capitalist would want to happen.  First destroy the offending system, leave the population broke & begging for a solution, then provide one in the form of an benevolent nanny-state.  Of course that never ends well but our present overlords don't really seem to care.

What would Jesus do?  Honest question.  Really.  Think about it and give a reasoned response.  TIA.

[michigancat]

We (taxpayers) end up paying for it either way. Either the gov steps in and gives them the money now, or waits until they go bankrupt and has to step in and float all the banks. Probably best just to bite the bullet and give Detroit whatever they want now as opposed to picking up the pieces later.

I'm personally not for either of those ideas, but hey who am I... I'd hate to see the country lose an auto manufacturer, but when your business model SUCKS, you deserve to go out of business. It's the American way. Meanwhile, Toyota and Honda are hurting but at least they have their crap together and will weather the storm without asking for a handout.

No... It's better to pick up the pieces later.  Allowing them to go bankrupt only helps in the natural correction of the economy.  Other than the legal part of it, there is no difference between a big business making stupid decisions that cause it to go under vs someone stealing from a company (Enron) to make it go under.  In either case, the little people within the company suffer, but the direct suffering is mostly within (yes, there are contracts outside of GM that it would affect).  The void in the market would be filled.  People wouldn't stop buying cars because their favorite brand isn't there.  They would just go find another brand.

If you keep it from falling apart by pumping in money that doesn't exist, then you've spread that problem out to all sectors of the economy.  That's what the free market is.  Stupid decisions = failure.  Good decisions = success.

LOL, it's cute when people act like a free market has ever existed.

[AzCat]

Only trouble with that is that people are so stupid and dependent on government as it is, that if you let that happen (letting all the banks, etc. go, things would get BAD in a hurry), people will turn around and demand the government to step in on an even BIGGER scale. Very scary. All we're doing now by pumping this fracking monopoly money in the system is delaying the inevitable, and in fact making things worse when the crap finally does hit the fan.

Which is, of course, precisely what a leftist anti-capitalist would want to happen.  First destroy the offending system, leave the population broke & begging for a solution, then provide one in the form of an benevolent nanny-state.  Of course that never ends well but our present overlords don't really seem to care.

What would Jesus do?  Honest question.  Really.  Think about it and give a reasoned response.  TIA.

Teach people how to fish rather than subsidizing a massive daily handout of fresh fish to all the world's deadbeats. 

[ksu_FAN]

Only trouble with that is that people are so stupid and dependent on government as it is, that if you let that happen (letting all the banks, etc. go, things would get BAD in a hurry), people will turn around and demand the government to step in on an even BIGGER scale. Very scary. All we're doing now by pumping this fracking monopoly money in the system is delaying the inevitable, and in fact making things worse when the crap finally does hit the fan.

Which is, of course, precisely what a leftist anti-capitalist would want to happen.  First destroy the offending system, leave the population broke & begging for a solution, then provide one in the form of an benevolent nanny-state.  Of course that never ends well but our present overlords don't really seem to care.

What would Jesus do?  Honest question.  Really.  Think about it and give a reasoned response.  TIA.

He'd tell you to respect your government and pay your taxes, more or less.

[raquetcat]

GM should have stopped making about half their brands a couple of years ago, buick, pontiac, and a few others would be easy targets.

[AzCat]

Only trouble with that is that people are so stupid and dependent on government as it is, that if you let that happen (letting all the banks, etc. go, things would get BAD in a hurry), people will turn around and demand the government to step in on an even BIGGER scale. Very scary. All we're doing now by pumping this fracking monopoly money in the system is delaying the inevitable, and in fact making things worse when the crap finally does hit the fan.

Which is, of course, precisely what a leftist anti-capitalist would want to happen.  First destroy the offending system, leave the population broke & begging for a solution, then provide one in the form of an benevolent nanny-state.  Of course that never ends well but our present overlords don't really seem to care.

What would Jesus do?  Honest question.  Really.  Think about it and give a reasoned response.  TIA.

He'd tell you to respect your government and pay your taxes, more or less.

Or he might kill all the firstborn children of government officials and appoint a prophet to lead the faithful elsewhere. 

[michigancat]

I don't get how people who support the government building roads can be pissed about the government giving money to an auto maker.

[BigCat]

I don't get how people who support the government building roads can be pissed about the government giving money to an auto maker.

srsly?

[BigCat]

What would Jesus do?  Honest question.  Really.  Think about it and give a reasoned response.  TIA.

He'd tell you to respect your government and pay your taxes, more or less.

Yeah, I'm sure he (along with many others) would tell you that arrangement with the Romans worked out well.

[willie83]

I don't get how people who support the government building roads can be pissed about the government giving money to an auto maker.

Rusty hates roads

The interstate road system was built to provide easy access for our military in case of attack and facilitate easy and inexpensive transportation of goods. That is what our government is supposed to do.

[Pete]

Only trouble with that is that people are so stupid and dependent on government as it is, that if you let that happen (letting all the banks, etc. go, things would get BAD in a hurry), people will turn around and demand the government to step in on an even BIGGER scale. Very scary. All we're doing now by pumping this fracking monopoly money in the system is delaying the inevitable, and in fact making things worse when the crap finally does hit the fan.

Which is, of course, precisely what a leftist anti-capitalist would want to happen.  First destroy the offending system, leave the population broke & begging for a solution, then provide one in the form of an benevolent nanny-state.  Of course that never ends well but our present overlords don't really seem to care.

What would Jesus do?  Honest question.  Really.  Think about it and give a reasoned response.  TIA.

Teach people how to fish rather than subsidizing a massive daily handout of fresh fish to all the world's deadbeats. 

Tell that to the 5000 deadbeats who mooched his bread and fish.

[michigancat]

I don't get how people who support the government building roads can be pissed about the government giving money to an auto maker.

Rusty hates roads

The interstate road system was built to provide easy access for our military in case of attack and facilitate easy and inexpensive transportation of goods. That is what our government is supposed to do.

Neocons:  We're always fighting for free markets, except for when we don't want them.

[Ghost of Stan Parrish]

LOL, it's cute when people act like a free market has ever existed.

This.

[jeffy]

I don't get how people who support the government building roads can be pissed about the government giving money to an auto maker.

Rusty hates roads

The interstate road system was built to provide easy access for our military in case of attack and facilitate easy and inexpensive transportation of goods. That is what our government is supposed to do.

Neocons:  We're always fighting for free markets, except for when we don't want them.

And the interstate is infrastructure which benefits all people in the US and actually provides a positive dollar return on the investment.  A car is hardly infrastructure.  And new cars are more of a luxury item.  There are plenty of other methods, including used cars, to get around and if one car maker goes under, the others will naturally pick up the slack.  There will always be enough cars to meet the demand.

[michigancat]

And the interstate is infrastructure which benefits all people in the US and actually provides a positive dollar return on the investment.  A car is hardly infrastructure.  And new cars are more of a luxury item.  There are plenty of other methods, including used cars, to get around and if one car maker goes under, the others will naturally pick up the slack.  There will always be enough cars to meet the demand.

Without billions (trillions?) in highway subsidization, GM would never have reached it's current size, and its loss would not have had the devastating effect on the economy that we are now facing.  We've been subsidizing domestic auto makers in some way for years.  Only now that it is dumbed down enough that Neocons can understand how the bail out works are they upset with it.

[Pete]

And the interstate is infrastructure which benefits all people in the US and actually provides a positive dollar return on the investment.  A car is hardly infrastructure.  And new cars are more of a luxury item.  There are plenty of other methods, including used cars, to get around and if one car maker goes under, the others will naturally pick up the slack.  There will always be enough cars to meet the demand.

Without billions (trillions?) in highway subsidization, GM would never have reached it's current size, and its loss would not have had the devastating effect on the economy that we are now facing.  We've been subsidizing domestic auto makers in some way for years.  Only now that is dumbed down enough that Neocons can understand how the bail out works are they upset with it.

We need those euro trash trains.  F'ing Spain has built a national network of them.  They are fast, safe, easy to get on and off, and always on time.

[raquetcat]

And the interstate is infrastructure which benefits all people in the US and actually provides a positive dollar return on the investment.  A car is hardly infrastructure.  And new cars are more of a luxury item.  There are plenty of other methods, including used cars, to get around and if one car maker goes under, the others will naturally pick up the slack.  There will always be enough cars to meet the demand.

Without billions (trillions?) in highway subsidization, GM would never have reached it's current size, and its loss would not have had the devastating effect on the economy that we are now facing.  We've been subsidizing domestic auto makers in some way for years.  Only now that is dumbed down enough that Neocons can understand how the bail out works are they upset with it.

We need those euro trash trains.  F'ing Spain has built a national network of them.  They are fast, safe, easy to get on and off, and always on time.

This just in: the U.S. is a LOT bigger than Spain, and have your ridden a Amtrak train lately, they are always late. The U.S. needs more rail infrastructure before they can even THINK about converting to passenger trains as a main source of transport. Right now Amtrak is living off government subsidies and with out BNSF and UP Amtrak would no longer exist. Just a little FYI

[Ghost of Stan Parrish]

We need those euro trash trains.  F'ing Spain has built a national network of them.  They are fast, safe, easy to get on and off, and always on time.

This just in: the U.S. is a LOT bigger than Spain, and have your ridden a Amtrak train lately, they are always late. The U.S. needs more rail infrastructure before they can even THINK about converting to passenger trains as a main source of transport. Right now Amtrak is living off government subsidies and with out BNSF and UP Amtrak would no longer exist. Just a little FYI

Not really different than what Pete said.  The U.S. needs a better train network.  The sooner the better.