Date: 20/08/25 - 06:02 AM   48060 Topics and 694399 Posts

Author Topic: Offensive line...why are they so bad?  (Read 3907 times)

October 01, 2006, 06:49:31 PM
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michigancat

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Why is this offensive line so bad?

Horrible recruiting from Snyder?

Horrible coaching from Prince?

Ridiculously complicated schemes from Prince?

Something else?



Would this OL look this horrible under Snyder?

October 01, 2006, 06:52:19 PM
Reply #1

fatty fat fat

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Are you talking about run blocking or pass protection?

They sucked last year as well. It was only the last two games of the year that they finally gave us some sort of run game.
It is a tragedy because now, we have at least an extra month without Cat football until next year. I hate wasting my life away but I can hardly wait until next year.

October 01, 2006, 06:58:49 PM
Reply #2

michigancat

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They still managed 20 points in every game but two, and they won one of those.

October 01, 2006, 07:00:01 PM
Reply #3

fatty fat fat

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Yeah, I'd lean (heavily) towards coaching.

It's basically the same players.
It is a tragedy because now, we have at least an extra month without Cat football until next year. I hate wasting my life away but I can hardly wait until next year.

October 01, 2006, 07:04:18 PM
Reply #4

michigancat

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Yeah, I'd lean (heavily) towards coaching.

It's basically the same players.

Is Prince just a bad coach, or is he asking them to do things more difficult than Snyder did?  Or both?

October 01, 2006, 07:05:15 PM
Reply #5

fatty fat fat

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All indications are that he's a good OL coach...right?

Our OL coach always had a suspect resume.

I mean, crap.

OACHING EXPERIENCE
1984 Fort Hays State, student assistant coach (defensive line)
1985 Russell High School, assistant coach (assistant line coach)
1986 Hays High School, assistant coach (assistant line coach)
1987 Kansas, graduate assistant (defensive line)
1988 Middle Tennessee State, assistant coach (tight ends)
1989 Shawnee Mission North High School, assistant coach (offensive line coach)
1990-93 Dodge City Community College, offensive coordinator (offensive line)
1994-97 Southwest Baptist, offensive coordinator (offensive line/tight ends)
1998 Greenville College, assistant coach (offensive line)
1999-2003 Tabor College, head coach
2004-2005 East Central, head coach
2006 Kansas State, assistant head coach (offensive line)
It is a tragedy because now, we have at least an extra month without Cat football until next year. I hate wasting my life away but I can hardly wait until next year.

October 01, 2006, 07:15:00 PM
Reply #6

catzacker

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Is Prince just a bad coach, or is he asking them to do things more difficult than Snyder did? Or both?

I think our run schemes are absolutely terrible.  Thomas Clayton should be running in between the tackles and then trying to kick it outside, rather than those freaking stretch plays where he's trying to outrun the outside linebacker to a spot (that the OLB is nearly already at).  Couple that with having lineman that don't pull well that far outside and a midget for a fullback.  Also, when have we decided to run?  We've never really committed to running, we've just assumed it won't work and let Dylan bounce pass the ball to our receivers. 

October 01, 2006, 07:16:31 PM
Reply #7

chum1

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Is it enough to just look at the players and see that they are fat and not at all athletic?  They don't look too much like Ryan Young, do they?


October 01, 2006, 07:41:26 PM
Reply #8

opcat

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The center is a former dtackle.  He can't push anyone.

The pass blocking keeps getting better.

They were overrated rivals players.

October 01, 2006, 08:14:23 PM
Reply #9

McGrowlTowelZac

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maybe if we'd hired a head coach with some offensive line background then, er eh, oh yea, my bad

October 01, 2006, 08:22:35 PM
Reply #10

Dan Rydell

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Trying to run a zone-blocking scheme with this oline and Clayton is a horrible idea.  They should be telling the oline  "Open the hole here" and telling Clayton "Here is where the hole will be.  Hit it hard." 

Our oline isn't athletic enough and Clayton doesn't have a good enough feel for picking holes to be trying to run a zone scheme.

October 01, 2006, 09:08:37 PM
Reply #11

opcat

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A good question for the prince call in radio show.

October 01, 2006, 09:39:56 PM
Reply #12

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Imagine how Edgerin James feels right now.

October 02, 2006, 11:39:36 AM
Reply #13

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Our oline isn't athletic enough and Clayton doesn't have a good enough feel for picking holes to be trying to run a zone scheme.

Clayton has pretty much zero ability to move laterally, he couldn't get to a hole if he saw one unless it was right in front of him.
Ladies & gentlemen, I present: The Problem

October 02, 2006, 11:42:28 AM
Reply #14

Dan Rydell

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Our oline isn't athletic enough and Clayton doesn't have a good enough feel for picking holes to be trying to run a zone scheme.

Clayton has pretty much zero ability to move laterally, he couldn't get to a hole if he saw one unless it was right in front of him.

Ergo,

Quote
telling Clayton "Here is where the hole will be.  Hit it hard."
 

October 02, 2006, 12:34:20 PM
Reply #15

bigdeal

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Hey Bslimz, interesting comments on the zone blocking.  Don't take this as sarcastic but what is your experience or knowledge/background on zone blocking or blocking schemes.  Seriously, I had not heard this discussed and I am no expert on blocking schemes so I just wanted to know your basis.  It seems like a really interesting point. 

October 02, 2006, 12:37:35 PM
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Saulbadguy

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Don't give me any semantics, anecdotes, or comparisons...

Installing a new offensive scheme is hard. 

October 02, 2006, 12:41:20 PM
Reply #17

Saulbadguy

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Trying to run a zone-blocking scheme with this oline and Clayton is a horrible idea.  They should be telling the oline  "Open the hole here" and telling Clayton "Here is where the hole will be.  Hit it hard." 

Our oline isn't athletic enough and Clayton doesn't have a good enough feel for picking holes to be trying to run a zone scheme.
Which is why we need to run Patton more often.  He is the RBOTF, he is quick enough to make the ONE cut, and hit the hole. 

October 02, 2006, 12:49:31 PM
Reply #18

bws

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  Don't worry. Our OL coach coached at Eastern Oklahoma State last year. We'll be fine. :blank:

October 02, 2006, 12:56:23 PM
Reply #19

ksu_FAN

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Our current scheme is a WAY different scheme than the old scheme.

There are currently two basic trends in Oline scheme/run blocking, a man scheme and a zone scheme.  In a man scheme you have specific rules that essentually tell you which guy to block.  I'm not going to get to complicated, but its pretty straight forward for the guys up front and the decision making is easier.  Also easier for the running backs b/c they have a specific hole to run to and keys to read like their FB or a pulling guard that they know to follow.  In a man scheme usually you have bigger, road grader type players at the tackles and more athletic players at guard if you pull alot.  At center you usually don't want the biggest kid, but you want a smart kid b/c he'll call out adjustments when the defense lines up b/c they move around and don't always line up where you think they are going to be.

In a zone scheme the entire Oline essentually will step one direction or the other and wall off the first defender that attacks the gap they are assigned to.  The RB has the freedom to pretty much pick the hole that opens up first, or cut back if defenses overpursue.  Usually zone teams will have one big anchor for the QBs backside, and the rest of the Oline will be smaller (under 300), more athletic Oline that can move their feet and get the angles necessary in a zone scheme.  The Denver Broncos turned this blocking scheme into an art form.

Zone blocking has progressively over the last 10-15 years taken over the NFL game and now college.  K-State went to more zone under Snyder, but retained a lot of man aspects b/c we ran a lot of power football and pulled a lot of backside OL to get numbers at the point of attack.

Our new scheme is almost purely inside and outside zone.  Inside zone is designed to stay between the tackles but sometimes will bounce outside, especially on cutbacks; outside zone is the stretch play we run which may end up outside the tackles at times, but could be inside on cutbacks. 

IMO we haven't adjusted well at all.  Our oline are poor at staying on blocks in this new scheme long enough to open solid gaps for our RBs and we often fail to pick up backside defenders which doesn't allow for the cutback lanes which you must have to keep a defense honest against pure zone schemes.

And as far as the complaints at RB, that has been a disappointment.  Frankly, Clayton has been the best at reading and cutting back.  I thought the smaller, quicker guys would bypass him, but that simply hasn't been the case yet.  It has taken us much longer to adjust to this new scheme than I anticipated, but b/c the scheme is so different I can't say that I'm completely shocked by it.  Nebraska gave us a good look at what a switch from a power running game to a pure zone scheme looks like, and we probably don't/didn't have as much talent in place as they did when Callahan first came in.  NU is appearing to become a much better running team out of their WCO/zone based running attack this year for really the first time since Callahan got there.

October 02, 2006, 02:08:30 PM
Reply #20

WILDCAT NATION

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Our current scheme is a WAY different scheme than the old scheme.

There are currently two basic trends in Oline scheme/run blocking, a man scheme and a zone scheme.  In a man scheme you have specific rules that essentually tell you which guy to block.  I'm not going to get to complicated, but its pretty straight forward for the guys up front and the decision making is easier.  Also easier for the running backs b/c they have a specific hole to run to and keys to read like their FB or a pulling guard that they know to follow.  In a man scheme usually you have bigger, road grader type players at the tackles and more athletic players at guard if you pull alot.  At center you usually don't want the biggest kid, but you want a smart kid b/c he'll call out adjustments when the defense lines up b/c they move around and don't always line up where you think they are going to be.

In a zone scheme the entire Oline essentually will step one direction or the other and wall off the first defender that attacks the gap they are assigned to.  The RB has the freedom to pretty much pick the hole that opens up first, or cut back if defenses overpursue.  Usually zone teams will have one big anchor for the QBs backside, and the rest of the Oline will be smaller (under 300), more athletic Oline that can move their feet and get the angles necessary in a zone scheme.  The Denver Broncos turned this blocking scheme into an art form.

Zone blocking has progressively over the last 10-15 years taken over the NFL game and now college.  K-State went to more zone under Snyder, but retained a lot of man aspects b/c we ran a lot of power football and pulled a lot of backside OL to get numbers at the point of attack.

Our new scheme is almost purely inside and outside zone.  Inside zone is designed to stay between the tackles but sometimes will bounce outside, especially on cutbacks; outside zone is the stretch play we run which may end up outside the tackles at times, but could be inside on cutbacks. 

IMO we haven't adjusted well at all.  Our oline are poor at staying on blocks in this new scheme long enough to open solid gaps for our RBs and we often fail to pick up backside defenders which doesn't allow for the cutback lanes which you must have to keep a defense honest against pure zone schemes.

And as far as the complaints at RB, that has been a disappointment.  Frankly, Clayton has been the best at reading and cutting back.  I thought the smaller, quicker guys would bypass him, but that simply hasn't been the case yet.  It has taken us much longer to adjust to this new scheme than I anticipated, but b/c the scheme is so different I can't say that I'm completely shocked by it.  Nebraska gave us a good look at what a switch from a power running game to a pure zone scheme looks like, and we probably don't/didn't have as much talent in place as they did when Callahan first came in.  NU is appearing to become a much better running team out of their WCO/zone based running attack this year for really the first time since Callahan got there.

Brought a tear to my eye...that's beautiful.... :thumbsup:

October 02, 2006, 02:11:07 PM
Reply #21

bigdeal

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Thanks KSU_Fan for your explanation.  I have heard zone and man blocking schemes mentioned many times along with comments on the different type of linemen required but I never really knew exactly what they were saying.  Your explanation was quite helpful.  It's kind of what I thought intuitively, given the names, but you described it well.  




October 02, 2006, 02:17:42 PM
Reply #22

WILDCAT NATION

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Now the question I have for FAN is whether he thinks KSU has the personnel to run a purely zone scheme.

I'm of the opinion they don't, and they should go to a power run game until they do...we're gonna get a qb killed out there.

Only other solution I see at this point is going 4 wide shotgun....and using draws, screens, etc...to get your "running yardage"...

Too bad coach snyder can't come in and put his early 90's offense in...


October 02, 2006, 02:21:40 PM
Reply #23

pissclams

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Too bad coach snyder can't come in and put his early 90's offense in...


I loved that offense.


Cheesy Mustache QB might make an appearance.

New warning: Don't get in a fight with someone who doesn't even need to bother to buy ink.

October 02, 2006, 02:24:33 PM
Reply #24

Leyton

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Wow, ksu_FAN!  That's got to be the more insightful thing I've ever read on a KSU football board.  You are one of very few people who seem to know the game well.  Oh, how I wish there were more of you (and that I were one of them).

October 02, 2006, 02:27:42 PM
Reply #25

WILDCAT NATION

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I'm just glad he took the time to post it...I've got a little experience with the zone blocking schemes, but not a ton...and haven't paid close enough attention in recent years to post like that about it...but he nailed it.


October 02, 2006, 02:35:10 PM
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October 02, 2006, 03:12:13 PM
Reply #27

MrWhite

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some high schools are even running zone blocking these days.  i would be interested to know if any of our skinny o-line recruits played in a zone scheme in high school.

i think we're really missing fisher in this offense, he is better suited to this type of running.

i also think it's crap ass stupid to pull clayton and have true frosh leon patton run on a third and short the next series.

October 02, 2006, 03:38:16 PM
Reply #28

Racquetball_Ninja

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The words small, slow, and fat come to mind.   :katpak:

October 02, 2006, 08:12:11 PM
Reply #29

PurpleReign

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Our current scheme is a WAY different scheme than the old scheme.

There are currently two basic trends in Oline scheme/run blocking, a man scheme and a zone scheme.  In a man scheme you have specific rules that essentually tell you which guy to block.  I'm not going to get to complicated, but its pretty straight forward for the guys up front and the decision making is easier.  Also easier for the running backs b/c they have a specific hole to run to and keys to read like their FB or a pulling guard that they know to follow.  In a man scheme usually you have bigger, road grader type players at the tackles and more athletic players at guard if you pull alot.  At center you usually don't want the biggest kid, but you want a smart kid b/c he'll call out adjustments when the defense lines up b/c they move around and don't always line up where you think they are going to be.

In a zone scheme the entire Oline essentually will step one direction or the other and wall off the first defender that attacks the gap they are assigned to.  The RB has the freedom to pretty much pick the hole that opens up first, or cut back if defenses overpursue.  Usually zone teams will have one big anchor for the QBs backside, and the rest of the Oline will be smaller (under 300), more athletic Oline that can move their feet and get the angles necessary in a zone scheme.  The Denver Broncos turned this blocking scheme into an art form.

Zone blocking has progressively over the last 10-15 years taken over the NFL game and now college.  K-State went to more zone under Snyder, but retained a lot of man aspects b/c we ran a lot of power football and pulled a lot of backside OL to get numbers at the point of attack.

Our new scheme is almost purely inside and outside zone. Inside zone is designed to stay between the tackles but sometimes will bounce outside, especially on cutbacks; outside zone is the stretch play we run which may end up outside the tackles at times, but could be inside on cutbacks.

IMO we haven't adjusted well at all. Our oline are poor at staying on blocks in this new scheme long enough to open solid gaps for our RBs and we often fail to pick up backside defenders which doesn't allow for the cutback lanes which you must have to keep a defense honest against pure zone schemes.

And as far as the complaints at RB, that has been a disappointment. Frankly, Clayton has been the best at reading and cutting back. I thought the smaller, quicker guys would bypass him, but that simply hasn't been the case yet. It has taken us much longer to adjust to this new scheme than I anticipated, but b/c the scheme is so different I can't say that I'm completely shocked by it. Nebraska gave us a good look at what a switch from a power running game to a pure zone scheme looks like, and we probably don't/didn't have as much talent in place as they did when Callahan first came in. NU is appearing to become a much better running team out of their WCO/zone based running attack this year for really the first time since Callahan got there.

The problem with man blocking schemes are that your O-linemen have to be able to beat the D-linemen across from them in a 1-on-1 situation or they have to be athletic enough to get to LBer's before they can get to the intended hole and fill it.  Penetration is OK in this scheme as long as it is not around the hole.  Thus, if you are running between the RG and RT a guy can come upfield between the LG and LT and not cause a huge problem as long as a body is put on them.

The problem with a zone scheme is the OL needs to wall off the D and you really can not have a single guy on the entire line let their man get through or the play is screwed. This is especially true with a RB that runs on rails and lacks the ability to cut back.  Cutting back is a key ingredient to zone schemes.  It is contrasting to man schemes where sometimes letting guys through is essential (trap or counter) or will not hurt (explained above).