Hey Terry Pierce...

[BMWJhawk]

Yeah!  Take that TP!  You can't argue with adjectives and opinions!

I'm the one providing facts (ie 280 rushing yards for ku vs 91 for ksu, 52-21 final score, 1st team All Big 12 players, etc, etc.).   

Yeah, all of those facts are tremendously relevant to "talent" level.

So head-to-head, total yards, and All-Americans are irrelevant... got it.  I guess the only way to decide talent level is to point to a position and say it could improve with coaching.  

So when ku travels to K-State this upcoming season, ku will have no trouble winning because they more talented by such a wide margin - right?

Correct.  I mean honestly, have you seen Ron Prince's recruiting classes?

[SUPERKSUFAN]

 

[PittsburgJayhawk]

Funny how the resident squawktards always manage to just about completely disappear in the midst of losing streaks for ku, but they beat this years most overrated team by 3 points and suddenly they're all over the place again.

Hard as it may be to believe, Dax, not all ku fans spend every waking minute monitoring what goes on over here.  I usually pop by once, maybe twice a week to see what you guys are talking about, and comment when the discussion is interesting and/or entertaining. This thread qualifies.

We're not all BMW.

[sonofdaxjones]

Lets just stop it right now . . . one day you talk to Ben and he'll pull out the phogtardlogic about how they could all see the difference Mangino made from day one . . . thus emphasizing coaching up players.   Now, Ben's trying to tell us its all about the talent and nothing to do with the coaching.

Ben as per usual is all over the map.


Damn . . .  

[sonofdaxjones]

Funny how the resident squawktards always manage to just about completely disappear in the midst of losing streaks for ku, but they beat this years most overrated team by 3 points and suddenly they're all over the place again.

Hard as it may be to believe, Dax, not all ku fans spend every waking minute monitoring what goes on over here.  I usually pop by once, maybe twice a week to see what you guys are talking about, and comment when the discussion is interesting and/or entertaining. This thread qualifies.

We're not all BMW.

Yes, strange how that "monitoring" seems to pick up when things go better for ku.   

[ednksu]

Funny how the resident squawktards always manage to just about completely disappear in the midst of losing streaks for ku, but they beat this years most overrated team by 3 points and suddenly they're all over the place again.

Hard as it may be to believe, Dax, not all ku fans spend every waking minute monitoring what goes on over here.  I usually pop by once, maybe twice a week to see what you guys are talking about, and comment when the discussion is interesting and/or entertaining. This thread qualifies.

We're not all BMW.

you have to atleast agree that Ben is one of the worst ku posters when it comes to bandwagon mouth running.

[PittsburgJayhawk]

Funny how the resident squawktards always manage to just about completely disappear in the midst of losing streaks for ku, but they beat this years most overrated team by 3 points and suddenly they're all over the place again.

Hard as it may be to believe, Dax, not all ku fans spend every waking minute monitoring what goes on over here.  I usually pop by once, maybe twice a week to see what you guys are talking about, and comment when the discussion is interesting and/or entertaining. This thread qualifies.

We're not all BMW.

Yes, strange how that "monitoring" seems to pick up when things go better for ku.   

Not really sure what to tell you, Dax. Speaking for myself, the number of times I visit ksufans.com hasn't really changed at all.  After the game in Lawrence this year, for example, I checked the board but didn't see anything worth a comment.

This thread is both funny and worthy, for a number of reasons – not the least of which is that it's an excellent display of BMW's manic nature.  One minute he's chastising the posters on Phog for not sending an angry mob to the Mangino house, the next he's over here touting how much progress the program has made under him. It's absolutely bizarre.

[Saulbadguy]

We're not all BMW.

And for that, be thankful!

 

[ednksu]

BMW all that talent in ku's greatest team got you what conference title again?  Just remember that you got in by the back door (no gay joke thats how serious I am) and you were waxed by the team who should have been in your place.

And do I need to make you look like a fool again for pointing out that BS number next to VT?

[Super PurpleCat]

That #3 Va Tech team they beat in the Orange Bowl had more talent than most, if not all, of your K-State teams during the DoD.  

Keep dreaming princess.  The 1998 team had talent coming out of its ears.

[Saulbadguy]

Funny how the resident squawktards always manage to just about completely disappear in the midst of losing streaks for ku, but they beat this years most overrated team by 3 points and suddenly they're all over the place again.

Hard as it may be to believe, Dax, not all ku fans spend every waking minute monitoring what goes on over here.  I usually pop by once, maybe twice a week to see what you guys are talking about, and comment when the discussion is interesting and/or entertaining. This thread qualifies.

We're not all BMW.

Yes, strange how that "monitoring" seems to pick up when things go better for ku.   

I will defend Pitt in this case - it's much more entertaining to peruse Phog.net when ku is getting their ass kicked, or if K-State is doing well.  I mean, didn't all of us go check it out after 84-75?

[PittsburgJayhawk]

Saying that you provide facts is ridiculous. The argument was about talent. ku had one 12 win season in the worst year of the Big 12 north. We had 6 11 win seasons and 10 with 9 or more wins. KSU 03 would blow ku 07 away!  This is funny...Fatty can get on your side all he wants but you guys are about the same when it comes to defending what you say. TALENT! Is what we are talking about here. And that is it. While we are on the subject ku 07 didnt have the Talent to even get on the field with the KSU 97-03. O-line? I said your OT's were better, but that's where it ends. When we are talking about Talent, we are talking about NATURAL ABILITY. I guess you guys just wanna skip over that fact and keep talking about the 09 recruiting class, your record, and how you did against our defense...
Everyone knows that AllBig 12 is put to a vote. The teams with the best record have the most All Big 12 players, that doesn't mean that they are more talented. And just to reassure me how stupid you are, you still say head to head, total yards, and All Americans should decide talent? Now ask your dumb ass self this...Are head to head games, total yards, and All American status the sole determining factor for talent? I guess coaching and scheme have nothing to do with that...If what your saying is correct, the most talented team will always have more yards and win every game. So Florida, USC, Texas, OU and many others should never lose. 
Complete idiots when it comes to knowing anything about football.

Can you define "talent?" I'd just like to understand the terms under discussion here.

[CatsNChiefs]

Can you define "talent?" I'd just like to understand the terms under discussion here.

Intangible and near impossible to quantify.  Which is kind of the point, you know?  That's what makes this circular argument circular.

[sonofdaxjones]

Funny how the resident squawktards always manage to just about completely disappear in the midst of losing streaks for ku, but they beat this years most overrated team by 3 points and suddenly they're all over the place again.

Hard as it may be to believe, Dax, not all ku fans spend every waking minute monitoring what goes on over here.  I usually pop by once, maybe twice a week to see what you guys are talking about, and comment when the discussion is interesting and/or entertaining. This thread qualifies.

We're not all BMW.

Yes, strange how that "monitoring" seems to pick up when things go better for ku.   

Not really sure what to tell you, Dax. Speaking for myself, the number of times I visit ksufans.com hasn't really changed at all.  After the game in Lawrence this year, for example, I checked the board but didn't see anything worth a comment.

This thread is both funny and worthy, for a number of reasons – not the least of which is that it's an excellent display of BMW's manic nature.  One minute he's chastising the posters on Phog for not sending an angry mob to the Mangino house, the next he's over here touting how much progress the program has made under him. It's absolutely bizarre.

We can agree on that Pitt.

Like I said, it used to be all about Mangino "coaching them up" . . . and thus that would mean a premium is being placed on good coaching, now its all about talent.

There's no doubt in my mind that had KSU not had a joke of a staff that KSU could have won 6 or 7 games, and  would not have been so totally embarrassed in all of the losses.  Poor technique, bad pursuit angles, over pursuit and bad schemes is coaching, not talent.   Good coaching with decent to good talent (ku), coupled with motivation . . . will beat the heck out of mediocre to decent talent being coached poorly almost every time (KSU) . . .  any normal ku fan would understand that completely.

[fatty fat fat]

So Florida, USC, Texas, OU and many others should never lose. 

JMO, but those teams don't always have the most talent. Rivals rankings aren't 100% correct. For example, ND get's highly recruited classes, but it's garbage. They are not a talented team.

KSU from 97-03 was absurdly talented. Hence, the absurd success. (mostly on defense...LOADED)  Think about it TP, we look at our 2000 LB's as "weak" during the DoD (kazar, lott, young leber/tp), but those LB's would blow the door out of any group we've had since 2003 (outside of 06, maybe) Do you remember the amount of talent that we had stocked in our sercondaries during DoD? Remember how Terence Newman was a friggin backup in 2000? Carter, Butler, Newman, faggins, cooper, tyler...Dear God!

Complete idiots when it comes to knowing anything about football.

 

[sys]

It's an excellent display of BMW's manic nature.  One minute he's chastising the posters on Phog for not sending an angry mob to the Mangino house, the next he's over here touting how much progress the program has made under him. It's absolutely bizarre.

he's prob. the best poster on either board.  maybe you should stfu.

[mcmwcat]

bmw has me convinced that this 2 year run by the hawks might have actually dwarfed nubbs's mini run of MNCs in the mid 90s.

[Bullfn33]

There is a reason why Mangino won "coach" of the year last year and it wasn't because his team was talented. If you listened to broadcasts of their games during the '07 season neutral observers with lots of experience watching great teams never said anything about how talented the jayhawks were. They always said how well coached and disciplined they were and mentioned how their offensive scheme provided great balance that made it difficult to stop. You can't list numbers and accolades and say it was because of talent and then ignore any of the coaching factors that played a part in them.

[BRULL]

I just skip everyone elses reponses to get to TP.  You all should just stop now.

[Bullfn33]

So Florida, USC, Texas, OU and many others should never lose. 

JMO, but those teams don't always have the most talent. Rivals rankings aren't 100% correct. For example, ND get's highly recruited classes, but it's garbage. They are not a talented team.

saying rivals is wrong only when their rankings don't make sense on the field is too convenient to those who tout talent as the end all be all to success in college football. Like I said before, talent is most important overall but coaching also plays a big part in a program's success. I feel that in this age of modern cfb it's about 60/40 talent to coaching. Poor coaches do not tap into all of their players talents nor do they put them in the best situations to showcase them. You can't just roll 'em out there and win in this age of the game..there is far too much parity and good players are spread too far across the board for that to happen like it used to. Now it's becoming more and more about how well you're exploiting your players' talents, how you're motivating them, how you're scheming them, how disciplined they are, how mentally tough they are, how you're developing them in the off-season, how prepared they are week in and week out, etc. You still need good players to win but coaching is becoming that much more important as the years go by. imo.

[fatty fat fat]

saying rivals is wrong only when their rankings don't make sense on the field is too convenient to those who tout talent as the end all be all to success in college football.

that's true, but it is true.

what, was bill snyder a bad coach for the majority of his 4/5 stars in his latter years being busts? No, they were overrated talents.

[Bullfn33]

saying rivals is wrong only when their rankings don't make sense on the field is too convenient to those who tout talent as the end all be all to success in college football.

that's true, but it is true.

what, was bill snyder a bad coach for the majority of his 4/5 stars in his latter years being busts? No, they were overrated talents.

His leftover assistants were lazy fracks that nobody wanted so you could argue those players were poorly coached. Good players won't look so good when they are being lead by poor and uninspired coaching. How do you know it wasn't the coaching? How do you know it was just a talent issue in 04-05? Haven't we concluded that our talent level was far greater then than it is now? if so, it couldn't have been that bad.

[fatty fat fat]

saying rivals is wrong only when their rankings don't make sense on the field is too convenient to those who tout talent as the end all be all to success in college football.

that's true, but it is true.

what, was bill snyder a bad coach for the majority of his 4/5 stars in his latter years being busts? No, they were overrated talents.

His leftover assistants were lazy fracks that nobody wanted so you could argue those players were poorly coached. Good players won't look so good when they are being lead by poor and uninspired coaching. How do you know it wasn't the coaching? How do you know it was just a talent issue in 04-05? Haven't we concluded that our talent level was far greater then than it is now? if so, it couldn't have been that bad.

you mean the same staff that won the big 12 title in 2003, outside of brett bielena? Or the same staff that went 11-2 and had one of the most dominating teams in big 12 history (2002) outside of Ron Hudson and the o-line coach? The same Ron Hudson Kentucky whacked?

Good players make coaches look good. Not the other way around. Never the other way around.

[Bullfn33]

saying rivals is wrong only when their rankings don't make sense on the field is too convenient to those who tout talent as the end all be all to success in college football.

that's true, but it is true.

what, was bill snyder a bad coach for the majority of his 4/5 stars in his latter years being busts? No, they were overrated talents.

His leftover assistants were lazy fracks that nobody wanted so you could argue those players were poorly coached. Good players won't look so good when they are being lead by poor and uninspired coaching. How do you know it wasn't the coaching? How do you know it was just a talent issue in 04-05? Haven't we concluded that our talent level was far greater then than it is now? if so, it couldn't have been that bad.

you mean the same staff that won the big 12 title in 2003, outside of brett bielena? Or the same staff that went 11-2 and had one of the most dominating teams in big 12 history (2002) outside of Ron Hudson and the o-line coach? The same Ron Hudson Kentucky whacked?

Good players make coaches look good. Not the other way around. Never the other way around.

Beliema (sp?) was kind of a big deal to lose on the defensive side. That allowed Elliot to have his dirty hands all over the defense.

I gotta ask though. Who the hell expected us to be really good in '04 after you lose that many contributors from a Championship team? You look around and see this happen everywhere in college football more frequently now. Team goes on great run one season and then takes a huge step backward the next after losing a bunch of starters. Look at LSU this year, they are terribly average and just lost to rebuilding Arkansas, finishing 7-5, and they are loaded with top recruits that they were just suppose to reload with. The point is it doesn't happen in a year in good conferences and looking back at 04-05, it wasn't as big of a surprise as it should have been. It was a rebuilding phase. I still feel that assistants held us back from being bowl teams, at least in '05, and Snyder was burnt out trying to right the ship himself when he should have brought in better assistants to help get back on track rather than save his bums and do it all himself.

Bottom line for me, better, more inspiring assistants would have got us back to bowl season in '05 and probably would have recruited better beforehand which also would have helped get us back to contending in the North sooner.

[fatty fat fat]

Bottom line for me, better, more inspiring assistants would have got us back to bowl season in '05 and probably would have recruited better beforehand which also would have helped get us back to contending in the North sooner.

agreed dude. 4-7 in 2004, could have been 6-5 maybe. 5-6 in 2005 could have also been 6-5. A 1.5 game difference in terms of coaching is very believable.

Now, 11-4 to 4-7 is a difference coaching had no part of. Do you see what I'm trying to say? A 60/40 ratio is absurd.

Also, coaching is not just X's and O's. It's also motivation. I think motivation is a much bigger deal than "gameday coaching" or x's and o's. Which coach can motivate a player to be the best? That's a bigger deal than technique n sh*t, imo.

[Bullfn33]

Bottom line for me, better, more inspiring assistants would have got us back to bowl season in '05 and probably would have recruited better beforehand which also would have helped get us back to contending in the North sooner.

agreed dude. 4-7 in 2004, could have been 6-5 maybe. 5-6 in 2005 could have also been 6-5. A 1.5 game difference in terms of coaching is very believable.

Now, 11-4 to 4-7 is a difference coaching had no part of. Do you see what I'm trying to say? A 60/40 ratio is absurd.

Also, coaching is not just X's and O's. It's also motivation. I think motivation is a much bigger deal than "gameday coaching" or x's and o's. Which coach can motivate a player to be the best? That's a bigger deal than technique n sh*t, imo.

2004.
1)lost Beilema   
2)I admit, we failed at recruiting a reliable quarterback to replace Roberson, which that caused instability on offense by platooning Meier/Webb
3)O-Line decimated with injuries. wasn't this the year where everyone got injured on the line?

I think these factors greatly contributed to a 4 win season instead of a respectable 6-5 season. Had we recruited a better quarterback and did not suffer so many injuries, KSU is in a bowl for sure that season with Sproles running the ball. 4 wins was bad but let's also remember that is equivalent to 5 wins now.

I agree on the motivation part..it's a very underrated part of coaching. You have to play with confidence and swagger or you're not going to beat anybody that's good. Beilema was the last assistant to leave that brought swagger to the defense. Elliot seemed like a pussy.

[BMWJhawk]

Saying that you provide facts is ridiculous. The argument was about talent. ku had one 12 win season in the worst year of the Big 12 north. We had 6 11 win seasons and 10 with 9 or more wins. KSU 03 would blow ku 07 away!   This is funny...Fatty can get on your side all he wants but you guys are about the same when it comes to defending what you say. TALENT! Is what we are talking about here. And that is it. While we are on the subject ku 07 didnt have the Talent to even get on the field with the KSU 97-03. O-line? I said your OT's were better, but that's where it ends. When we are talking about Talent, we are talking about NATURAL ABILITY. I guess you guys just wanna skip over that fact and keep talking about the 09 recruiting class, your record, and how you did against our defense...
Everyone knows that AllBig 12 is put to a vote. The teams with the best record have the most All Big 12 players, that doesn't mean that they are more talented. And just to reassure me how stupid you are, you still say head to head, total yards, and All Americans should decide talent? Now ask your dumb ass self this...Are head to head games, total yards, and All American status the sole determining factor for talent? I guess coaching and scheme have nothing to do with that...If what your saying is correct, the most talented team will always have more yards and win every game. So Florida, USC, Texas, OU and many others should never lose.  
Complete idiots when it comes to knowing anything about football.

You are confusing speed with talent.  Kerry Meier is more talented than any receiver on K-State's roster, and it's not because he's faster.  It's because he has better hands, better natural instincts, and is just an all-around better football player.  It's an overall collection of talent.  You are basing everything on how fast a guy can run down the field.  Leo Bookman was the fastest guy on the field for ku, but he couldn't catch a pass to save his life. 

As for coaching, I'm not saying it's not important.  I'm not saying scheme isn't a factor.  I'm saying that ku has more talent than K-State, and it's really not that close.  I don't know why you can't get it through your head.


PS.  '07 was not even close to the worst year for the North.  You are a complete moron if you truly believe that.  ku and Mizzou were both top 5 at one point and both finished 7-1 in the Big 12.  Go back and look at the North division from '04-06. 

[BMWJhawk]

Funny how the resident squawktards always manage to just about completely disappear in the midst of losing streaks for ku, but they beat this years most overrated team by 3 points and suddenly they're all over the place again.

Hard as it may be to believe, Dax, not all ku fans spend every waking minute monitoring what goes on over here.  I usually pop by once, maybe twice a week to see what you guys are talking about, and comment when the discussion is interesting and/or entertaining. This thread qualifies.

We're not all BMW.

Yes, strange how that "monitoring" seems to pick up when things go better for ku.   

Not really sure what to tell you, Dax. Speaking for myself, the number of times I visit ksufans.com hasn't really changed at all.  After the game in Lawrence this year, for example, I checked the board but didn't see anything worth a comment.

This thread is both funny and worthy, for a number of reasons – not the least of which is that it's an excellent display of BMW's manic nature.  One minute he's chastising the posters on Phog for not sending an angry mob to the Mangino house, the next he's over here touting how much progress the program has made under him. It's absolutely bizarre.

It's called wearing your heart on your sleeve.  I was disappointed after 4 out of 5 losses to bring the team to 6-5.  I'm still disappointed with losses like South Florida, Nebraska, and the 63-21 drubbing by Texas Tech.  As a fan, you take the good with the bad.  This thread is simply asking Terry Pierce if he still believes that ku and K-State are equal in terms of talent, which he clearly still does.  I would have argued that ku has more talent than K-State, regardless of what happened against Mizzou. 

[fatty fat fat]

this is interesting.

http://www.big12sports.com/ViewContent.dbml?&DB_OEM_ID=10410&CONTENT_ID=1764

Wouldn't surprise me one bit if our roster is better in 2009.

[pissclams]

Enjoy bowl season sitting at home watching K-State basketball.

 

dude, i will, i love watching K-State basketball.