My friend is a jesus freak (jesus freaks gtfo of my thread)

[yosh]

My standby is the "Why would god send Ghandi to hell?" argument.

Basically that religion is 90% culture and regional.  Those that grow up in India, with Hindu friends and family, generally have those beliefs.  Same with Muslims, Buddists, Jews, ect.   Some of those people of other religions are great people, who spend their entire lives doing nothing but good for others.  They make the world better, they feed the hungry, fight oppression and strive for peace.  But the Christian god sends them to hell simply based on what culture they were born into.  That sort of god is an asshole, who I don't care to spend eternity with anyway.

[fatty fat fat]

muslim is the best one.

[KSt8er]

I get so pissed when somebody says God has a plan for them, they survived yada yada so they know that God was there and is not "done" using them for a greater purpose.  Well frackhead, so he kills little kids that have never commmited a sin, have a hell of a lot more potential than you ever will, but, in his infinite wisdom he wants you to live on in a drunken stupor?  I usually punch them at this point if they try to respond, I suggest you do the same.   

I don't recall that passage in the Bible.

you've never heard of a child that died?  Some horribly?  hth

So every child that dies is killed by God?  Pretty sure that's not in the Bible.

First, consider yourself punched.  Now when you wake up, try and follow along here.  Dumbass#1 says to me that God has a plan for him, he has not completed his assigned task. 

A little boy of two dies in a horrible car crash, or what have you.  (and yes, if you believe God has plans for you, therefore is in control, then yes, he kills at his discretion, nobody just dies.)

I ask dumbass how it is that he is so special that God could not do more with the life of the little boy he killed?  Dumbass may be nothing more than a drunk, and of course a dumbass too. 

Point is, if you ever say God has a plan for you because of some special task you're a dumbass. 

[KSt8er]

We're his entertainment. God set the wheels in motion and now he's just chilling back, watching everything go down. He doesn't intervene. He doesn't help actresses win the Oscar or help athletes break records, despite the fact they may feel compelled to thank him for their own achievements. He also doesn't "let bad things happen". They just happen. Whatever crapty thing currently going on in the world today isn't due to anything other than mankind's own long history of dumbassery.

QFMFT   

[KSt8er]

My standby is the "Why would god send Ghandi to hell?" argument.

Basically that religion is 90% culture and regional.  Those that grow up in India, with Hindu friends and family, generally have those beliefs.  Same with Muslims, Buddists, Jews, ect.   Some of those people of other religions are great people, who spend their entire lives doing nothing but good for others.  They make the world better, they feed the hungry, fight oppression and strive for peace.  But the Christian god sends them to hell simply based on what culture they were born into.  That sort of god is an asshole, who I don't care to spend eternity with anyway.

Another that needs a QFT

[doom]

I get so pissed when somebody says God has a plan for them, they survived yada yada so they know that God was there and is not "done" using them for a greater purpose.  Well frackhead, so he kills little kids that have never commmited a sin, have a hell of a lot more potential than you ever will, but, in his infinite wisdom he wants you to live on in a drunken stupor?  I usually punch them at this point if they try to respond, I suggest you do the same.   

I don't recall that passage in the Bible.

you've never heard of a child that died?  Some horribly?  hth

So every child that dies is killed by God?  Pretty sure that's not in the Bible.

First, consider yourself punched.  Now when you wake up, try and follow along here.  Dumbass#1 says to me that God has a plan for him, he has not completed his assigned task. 

A little boy of two dies in a horrible car crash, or what have you.  (and yes, if you believe God has plans for you, therefore is in control, then yes, he kills at his discretion, nobody just dies.)

I ask dumbass how it is that he is so special that God could not do more with the life of the little boy he killed?  Dumbass may be nothing more than a drunk, and of course a dumbass too. 

Point is, if you ever say God has a plan for you because of some special task you're a dumbass. 

Wow.  You kind of jump around in your conclusions and they just don't match.  Having a plan for your life and decreeing the exact events of your life are not the same thing.  Are you currently God's puppet only to be controlled by his every whim?    When you scratched your butt this morning and smelled your fingers was that a holy decree?  People have free will.  To blame him for a car wreck when God isn't driving the car is lazy, irresponsible, and bitter. 

[yosh]

muslim is the best one.

Budhism IMHO. 

[KSt8er]

I get so pissed when somebody says God has a plan for them, they survived yada yada so they know that God was there and is not "done" using them for a greater purpose.  Well frackhead, so he kills little kids that have never commmited a sin, have a hell of a lot more potential than you ever will, but, in his infinite wisdom he wants you to live on in a drunken stupor?  I usually punch them at this point if they try to respond, I suggest you do the same.   

Okay, one more time, this is about people who make claims like, "I was in this horrible crash, thrown 300 ft though the air, hit a brink wall going 80 mph with my head and lived, God was looking out for me that day and I now know that he has something for me yet to do".  If you accept that, then you accept that every other person, in this example a child, has not the value to God as you.  It's immensely arrogant, unbelievably arrogant. 

I don't recall that passage in the Bible.

you've never heard of a child that died?  Some horribly?  hth

So every child that dies is killed by God?  Pretty sure that's not in the Bible.

First, consider yourself punched.  Now when you wake up, try and follow along here.  Dumbass#1 says to me that God has a plan for him, he has not completed his assigned task. 

A little boy of two dies in a horrible car crash, or what have you.  (and yes, if you believe God has plans for you, therefore is in control, then yes, he kills at his discretion, nobody just dies.)

I ask dumbass how it is that he is so special that God could not do more with the life of the little boy he killed?  Dumbass may be nothing more than a drunk, and of course a dumbass too. 

Point is, if you ever say God has a plan for you because of some special task you're a dumbass. 

Wow.  You kind of jump around in your conclusions and they just don't match.  Having a plan for your life and decreeing the exact events of your life are not the same thing.  Are you currently God's puppet only to be controlled by his every whim?    When you scratched your butt this morning and smelled your fingers was that a holy decree?  People have free will.  To blame him for a car wreck when God isn't driving the car is lazy, irresponsible, and bitter. 

[catdude33]

Kst8ter is trying awfully hard to discredit Christianity.  Turn his post count upside down and I think you'll see why.

[cyclist]

Kst8ter is trying awfully hard to discredit Christianity.  Turn his post count upside down and I think you'll see why.

and

[KSt8er]

Kst8ter is trying awfully hard to discredit Christianity.  Turn his post count upside down and I think you'll see why.

   

Okay, one more time, this is about people who make claims like, "I was in this horrible crash, thrown 300 ft though the air, hit a brink wall going 80 mph with my head and lived, God was looking out for me that day and I now know that he has something for me yet to do".  If you accept that, then you accept that every other person who did die,  a crash in this example and a child, has not the value to God as you.  It's immensely arrogant, unbelievably arrogant. 

[catdude33]

Kst8ter is trying awfully hard to discredit Christianity.  Turn his post count upside down and I think you'll see why.

   

Okay, one more time, this is about people who make claims like, "I was in this horrible crash, thrown 300 ft though the air, hit a brink wall going 80 mph with my head and lived, God was looking out for me that day and I now know that he has something for me yet to do".  If you accept that, then you accept that every other person who did die,  a crash in this example and a child, has not the value to God as you.  It's immensely arrogant, unbelievably arrogant. 

You've now ruined my post. 

[ew2x4]

Ask him if he believes in the Big Bang theory. When he comes off as offended, ask him what is more divine than a massive boom in the sky and suddenly everything is created.

[Kat Kid]

I get so pissed when somebody says God has a plan for them, they survived yada yada so they know that God was there and is not "done" using them for a greater purpose.  Well frackhead, so he kills little kids that have never commmited a sin, have a hell of a lot more potential than you ever will, but, in his infinite wisdom he wants you to live on in a drunken stupor?  I usually punch them at this point if they try to respond, I suggest you do the same.   

I don't recall that passage in the Bible.

you've never heard of a child that died?  Some horribly?  hth

So every child that dies is killed by God?  Pretty sure that's not in the Bible.

First, consider yourself punched.  Now when you wake up, try and follow along here.  Dumbass#1 says to me that God has a plan for him, he has not completed his assigned task. 

A little boy of two dies in a horrible car crash, or what have you.  (and yes, if you believe God has plans for you, therefore is in control, then yes, he kills at his discretion, nobody just dies.)

I ask dumbass how it is that he is so special that God could not do more with the life of the little boy he killed?  Dumbass may be nothing more than a drunk, and of course a dumbass too. 

Point is, if you ever say God has a plan for you because of some special task you're a dumbass. 

Wow.  You kind of jump around in your conclusions and they just don't match.  Having a plan for your life and decreeing the exact events of your life are not the same thing.  Are you currently God's puppet only to be controlled by his every whim?    When you scratched your butt this morning and smelled your fingers was that a holy decree?  People have free will.  To blame him for a car wreck when God isn't driving the car is lazy, irresponsible, and bitter. 

Either God is not all-powerful or God allows these things to happen.  Free will is irrelevant.

[Rick Daris]

Pretty much one of my favorite websites ever...

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

Did no one read any of the above website? Not one comment...  x 50

[PCR]

This reminds me of my coworker who's religion is the 9/11 truth movement.  Yesterday we were talking about the Chinese earthquake and somehow that related to a 9/11 conspiracy.  Somehow ever lunch conversation turns into a 9/11 conspiracy discussion, no matter what.  So yesterday I said "you're just like talking to a religious person."  The worst part about it is that he's trying to convince this other guy who just became a citizen and has no clue about politics that it was a conspiracy.  At least he was smart enough to ask the question "So what are you going to do about it?" 

Same thing with God--doesn't matter if there is or isn't one.  There's nothing you can do about it, and I doubt he/she/it gives a crap if you grovel adequately or not.  Maybe God's plan is to have you live, die, and turn back into dust. Just be happy your ass wasn't aborted, or stillborn, or that you weren't born an ant or an ameoba. 

Here's the problem with most religious people...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHnDIlObAJo

[TheShocker]

Either God is not all-powerful or God allows these things to happen.  Free will is irrelevant.

Huh?  God allowing things to happen = free will. We do whatever we want and we live with the consequences.

[AzCat]

Just tattoo 666 on your forehead, he won't bother you anymore.   

[Kat Kid]

Either God is not all-powerful or God allows these things to happen.  Free will is irrelevant.

Huh?  God allowing things to happen = free will. We do whatever we want and we live with the consequences.

The implied third wheel is that God is just/God is good.  I mentioned it earlier, but didn't here.

i.e.:  God cannot be all-knowing, all-powerful and benign/just if he allows the sorts of calamities that he does.  Their presence suggests that he either is not able to intervene, could not anticipate them or is complicit or directly responsible for their occurrence.

If you read doom's original quote what I said makes better sense:

Wow.  You kind of jump around in your conclusions and they just don't match.  Having a plan for your life and decreeing the exact events of your life are not the same thing.  Are you currently God's puppet only to be controlled by his every whim?    When you scratched your butt this morning and smelled your fingers was that a holy decree?  People have free will.  To blame him for a car wreck when God isn't driving the car is lazy, irresponsible, and bitter.

[TheShocker]

i.e.:  God cannot be all-knowing, all-powerful and benign/just if he allows the sorts of calamities that he does. Their presence suggests that he either is not able to intervene, could not anticipate them or is complicit or directly responsible for their occurrence.

Why not? I've heard this argument a thousand times and I still don't understand it. God can be all-powerful, all-knowing, and benign and still "allow" bad things to happen. He's not a babysitter, watching over us to make sure we don't hurt ourselves. He created life and now it's up to us to determine what we do with it. I believe he's rooting for us, wanting us to make the right decisions but he's not going to intervene because he grants us free will.

[yosh]

i.e.:  God cannot be all-knowing, all-powerful and benign/just if he allows the sorts of calamities that he does. Their presence suggests that he either is not able to intervene, could not anticipate them or is complicit or directly responsible for their occurrence.

Why not? I've heard this argument a thousand times and I still don't understand it. God can be all-powerful, all-knowing, and benign and still "allow" bad things to happen. He's not a babysitter, watching over us to make sure we don't hurt ourselves. He created life and now it's up to us to determine what we do with it. I believe he's rooting for us, wanting us to make the right decisions but he's not going to intervene because he grants us free will.

I guess it all depends on if you believe that people who don't believe in Jesus go to hell.  If everybody goes to heaven for eternity, then what happens on earth is essentially irrelevent.  (Or if there is not afterlife)  In that case, I can buy your argument.  If God allows souls to rot in hell for not "accepting Jesus" then God isn't just.  If he is just, and can't stop them from going to hell, then God isn't all powerful.  It's not really that hard to understand.

It's the undeniable hypocracy of the Christian version of god.  A child in Singapore dies in an earthquake.  She has never even been introduced to the idea of Jesus, Christianity...maybe not even monotheism, but an all loving, all powerful god allows her soul to be tortured in hell forever.  "hey rules are rules...but I was rootin' for ya!"

[TheShocker]

Since when does believing in God = Christianity?  Jesus is irrelevant to this discussion. I do believe in heaven and hell and I think the totality of our actions here on earth determine where we go. It isn't as simple as "I was baptized so I'm getting into heaven!" or vice versa. If you live a good life, you to go heaven. If you're an evil scumbag, you go to hell. Pretty simple concept and it seems pretty just to me.

[yosh]

Since when does believing in God = Christianity?  Jesus is irrelevant to this discussion. I do believe in heaven and hell and I think the totality of our actions here on earth determine where we go. It isn't as simple as "I was baptized so I'm getting into heaven!" or vice versa. If you live a good life, you to go heaven. If you're an evil scumbag, you go to hell. Pretty simple concept and it seems pretty just to me.

This whole thread is about Christianity.

What religion are you then?  If you aren't operating under any dogma, then god can be whatever you want him to be.  Which is essentially how religions are formed anyway. 

[Kat Kid]

i.e.:  God cannot be all-knowing, all-powerful and benign/just if he allows the sorts of calamities that he does. Their presence suggests that he either is not able to intervene, could not anticipate them or is complicit or directly responsible for their occurrence.

Why not? I've heard this argument a thousand times and I still don't understand it. God can be all-powerful, all-knowing, and benign and still "allow" bad things to happen. He's not a babysitter, watching over us to make sure we don't hurt ourselves. He created life and now it's up to us to determine what we do with it. I believe he's rooting for us, wanting us to make the right decisions but he's not going to intervene because he grants us free will.

Hurricanes?  Or are those just "tests?"  What about cancer?  What about famine?  What about drought?  Benign?  Really?

[TheShocker]

i.e.:  God cannot be all-knowing, all-powerful and benign/just if he allows the sorts of calamities that he does. Their presence suggests that he either is not able to intervene, could not anticipate them or is complicit or directly responsible for their occurrence.

Why not? I've heard this argument a thousand times and I still don't understand it. God can be all-powerful, all-knowing, and benign and still "allow" bad things to happen. He's not a babysitter, watching over us to make sure we don't hurt ourselves. He created life and now it's up to us to determine what we do with it. I believe he's rooting for us, wanting us to make the right decisions but he's not going to intervene because he grants us free will.

Hurricanes?  Or are those just "tests?"  What about cancer?  What about famine?  What about drought?  Benign?  Really?

WTF? So now natural disasters are evidence that God is a dick? Aren't there scientific explanations for these things? As I said before, God doesn't intervene. He created the world billions of years ago and turned it loose. He doesn't send down hurricanes to punish or test us. He's a creator, not a puppet master. The world today is a result of evolution, some of which is influenced by the actions of man. Like pollution for instance.

[PCR]

So basically God is just an evaluator.  He decides at the end of everyone's life if they are going to Hell or Heaven.  Your sciencey explanation for Hurricanes doesn't make your afterlife scenario any more plausible. 

[ArchE_Cat]

i.e.:  God cannot be all-knowing, all-powerful and benign/just if he allows the sorts of calamities that he does. Their presence suggests that he either is not able to intervene, could not anticipate them or is complicit or directly responsible for their occurrence.

Why not? I've heard this argument a thousand times and I still don't understand it. God can be all-powerful, all-knowing, and benign and still "allow" bad things to happen. He's not a babysitter, watching over us to make sure we don't hurt ourselves. He created life and now it's up to us to determine what we do with it. I believe he's rooting for us, wanting us to make the right decisions but he's not going to intervene because he grants us free will.

I guess it all depends on if you believe that people who don't believe in Jesus go to hell.  If everybody goes to heaven for eternity, then what happens on earth is essentially irrelevent.  (Or if there is not afterlife)  In that case, I can buy your argument.  If God allows souls to rot in hell for not "accepting Jesus" then God isn't just.  If he is just, and can't stop them from going to hell, then God isn't all powerful.  It's not really that hard to understand.

It's the undeniable hypocracy of the Christian version of god.  A child in Singapore dies in an earthquake.  She has never even been introduced to the idea of Jesus, Christianity...maybe not even monotheism, but an all loving, all powerful god allows her soul to be tortured in hell forever.  "hey rules are rules...but I was rootin' for ya!"

Ever, read the Bible? God only says that he will judge at the end. The Bible only tells us if you have heard of Jesus then you have a decision to make. He also sent Jesus to die for the sin of every person who ever lived, even the child in Singapore. It's hard for me to believe that God would ignore the fact that someone had not heard of Jesus.

[yosh]

i.e.:  God cannot be all-knowing, all-powerful and benign/just if he allows the sorts of calamities that he does. Their presence suggests that he either is not able to intervene, could not anticipate them or is complicit or directly responsible for their occurrence.

Why not? I've heard this argument a thousand times and I still don't understand it. God can be all-powerful, all-knowing, and benign and still "allow" bad things to happen. He's not a babysitter, watching over us to make sure we don't hurt ourselves. He created life and now it's up to us to determine what we do with it. I believe he's rooting for us, wanting us to make the right decisions but he's not going to intervene because he grants us free will.

I guess it all depends on if you believe that people who don't believe in Jesus go to hell.  If everybody goes to heaven for eternity, then what happens on earth is essentially irrelevent.  (Or if there is not afterlife)  In that case, I can buy your argument.  If God allows souls to rot in hell for not "accepting Jesus" then God isn't just.  If he is just, and can't stop them from going to hell, then God isn't all powerful.  It's not really that hard to understand.

It's the undeniable hypocracy of the Christian version of god.  A child in Singapore dies in an earthquake.  She has never even been introduced to the idea of Jesus, Christianity...maybe not even monotheism, but an all loving, all powerful god allows her soul to be tortured in hell forever.  "hey rules are rules...but I was rootin' for ya!"

Ever, read the Bible? God only says that he will judge at the end. The Bible only tells us if you have heard of Jesus then you have a decision to make. He also sent Jesus to die for the sin of every person who ever lived, even the child in Singapore. It's hard for me to believe that God would ignore the fact that someone had not heard of Jesus.

yes...and lol.

[ksuno1stunner]

Jesus freaks gtfo

Ask him how God can be just, all-knowing and all-powerful and allow all the horrific things that occur in this world.  If he brings up "people make war" bring up Katrina/Earth Quakes etc.  There is no one watching over us.  We are all alone.

Just because you don't believe in an interventionist God doesn't mean there is no God at all.

And the case could be made that dropping people into a situation and observing how they handle it, completely on their own, would be a good way of judging people's character and judging the good in a collective people. Don't do anything to influence their decisions and don't infringe on their free will.

yes, but that is not their belief.  His fundamentalist Christian friend believes that he possesses a unique interpretation of what god is and what his goals for us are.  If everyone sort of just believed in life as a general judgement period and acted in the world's best interest this wouldn't be such a big deal.  The problem is that these a-holes have insane beliefs that they not only would like to talk to me about, but that they want to impose through policies.  I don't go up to people and try to tell them their little magic show is a joke, but if the dude is preaching to stunner he has every right to tell him he's a tard.  Stunner didn't bring it up, the tard did.

Kat Kid, you are my God.

One thing that I never understood goes along the lines of yosh's Singapore child example.  Sure we have free will, but there are some instances where people are a product of their surroundings.  Place Ahmed Muhammad into your basic christian family, and he would probably end up living a nice life as an upstanding citizen, ending up in heaven when he dies.  Jesus freaks may be crazy and annoy me, but they're decent people.  Place Ahmed Muhammed in a family involved with terrorism in the Middle east, and he'll be running around blowing up other Muhammeds and end up in hell amirite?  Is this fair?

muslim is the best one.

Budhism IMHO.  

 

[GoldbrickGangBoss]

Ask him how God can be just, all-knowing and all-powerful and allow all the horrific things that occur in this world.  If he brings up "people make war" bring up Katrina/Earth Quakes etc.  There is no one watching over us.  We are all alone.

Just because you don't believe in an interventionist God doesn't mean there is no God at all.

And the case could be made that dropping people into a situation and observing how they handle it, completely on their own, would be a good way of judging people's character and judging the good in a collective people. Don't do anything to influence their decisions and don't infringe on their free will.

yes, but that is not their belief.  His fundamentalist Christian friend believes that he possesses a unique interpretation of what god is and what his goals for us are.  If everyone sort of just believed in life as a general judgement period and acted in the world's best interest this wouldn't be such a big deal.  The problem is that these a-holes have insane beliefs that they not only would like to talk to me about, but that they want to impose through policies.  I don't go up to people and try to tell them their little magic show is a joke, but if the dude is preaching to stunner he has every right to tell him he's a tard.  Stunner didn't bring it up, the tard did.

If you think Stunner is being 'wronged' by this guy than the correct reply wouldn't be one of hostility. Stunner is just stooping to the jesus freak's level.

Say something along the lines of 'I recognize that you are trying to help me in accordance with your beliefs but I do not share the same feelings towards jesus/christianity/prayer. Thanks though, good buddy'

Just rearrange that into something that sounds more... human.