Date: 23/08/25 - 00:28 AM   48060 Topics and 694399 Posts

Author Topic: Serious D. Arthur Question for the board  (Read 4773 times)

May 16, 2008, 08:49:10 AM
Read 4773 times

Pete

  • Administrator
  • Scout Team Wildcat

  • Offline
  • ********

  • 6413
  • Personal Text
    Hicks
So, Arthur's school changed his grades so that he would be eligible.  From what I have read, he earned 4 scores his freshman year alone that were all below 50%.

I understand ku's argument that they should not be punished because they relied upon the NCAA clearing house's statement that Arthur was fully eligible.  HOWEVER, the NCAA relied upon fraudulent documents submitted by Arthur and his school......let me repeat that....BY ARTHUR.  He KNEW that he was submitting fraudulent information to the NCAA.  If you fail 4 classes in one year, you KNOW you aren't eligible. 

The NCAA can absolve itself of responsibility because they have no obligation to ferret out fraud.  As a result, the NCAA can easily determine that Arthur was not eligible for any NCAA games he played in.

Think of it this way, what if he cheated on his ACT and had someone else take it and it was later discovered?  The NCAA would definitely vacate all wins in that case.  How is this any different?  How is this different than if Arthur cheated on classwork while at ku?  What would the NCAA do then?


The facts are clear.  Darrell Arthur lied to the ncaa when he submitted his applications for eligibility.  The NCAA relied upon fraudulent materials and statements when they deemed him eligible.  If Arthur's actual scores were submitted he would NOT have been eligible for D1 athletics. 

Honestly Hawk fans, what should the NCAA do?

 :popcorn:

May 16, 2008, 08:55:05 AM
Reply #1

Pete

  • Administrator
  • Scout Team Wildcat

  • Offline
  • ********

  • 6413
  • Personal Text
    Hicks
....Oh, then there's this little doozy from the NCAA.

Quote

14.1.2 Validity of Academic Credentials. As a condition and obligation of membership, it is the responsibility of a member institution to determine the validity of the information on which the eligibility of a student-athlete is based. Therefore, it is the responsibility of a member institution to determine whether a transcript is valid for purposes of applying appropriate NCAA legislation to the eligibility of a student-athlete when the institution receives notification, or otherwise has cause to believe, that a student-athlete's high school, preparatory school or two-year college transcript is not valid.

« Last Edit: May 16, 2008, 08:57:29 AM by Pete »

May 16, 2008, 08:58:12 AM
Reply #2

Burgertime

  • Guest
They should probably kill his dog.

May 16, 2008, 08:58:51 AM
Reply #3

Saulbadguy

  • Guest
The NCAA should see how deep the rabbit hole goes.  If this is it, I don't see much recourse.  Maybe a loss of a scholarship.  

May 16, 2008, 09:06:21 AM
Reply #4

Burgertime

  • Guest
I think we'll send Lew and MF'n Dooley down to Texas.  Bloodbath.

May 16, 2008, 09:09:12 AM
Reply #5

ksu_FAN

  • Second String Wildcat

  • Offline
  • ****

  • 11401
The NCAA should see how deep the rabbit hole goes.  If this is it, I don't see much recourse.  Maybe a loss of a scholarship.  

Yeah, but it looks like it was mainly a problem with the high school.  It just came out after he was out, though there had to be some information out there about what was going down.  But its too easy in this case of ku to say they didn't know anything was going on and they have the paperwork to back it up.  

Still quite amusing after all the crap we got about Beasley and Walker that this goes down on one of their players.  Of course I'm sure Shady was just a victum of an ugly system and a high school gone bad; probably figured he got those passing scores b/c of his excellent behavior and excellent work ethic.

May 16, 2008, 09:09:23 AM
Reply #6

Pete

  • Administrator
  • Scout Team Wildcat

  • Offline
  • ********

  • 6413
  • Personal Text
    Hicks
I think we'll send Lew and MF'n Dooley down to Texas.  Bloodbath.

Seriously, what part of this NCAA bylaw is not in play here?

14.1.2 Validity of Academic Credentials. As a condition and obligation of membership, it is the responsibility of a member institution to determine the validity of the information on which the eligibility of a student-athlete is based. Therefore, it is the responsibility of a member institution to determine whether a transcript is valid for purposes of applying appropriate NCAA legislation to the eligibility of a student-athlete when the institution receives notification, or otherwise has cause to believe, that a student-athlete's high school, preparatory school or two-year college transcript is not valid.


May 16, 2008, 09:14:35 AM
Reply #7

Pete

  • Administrator
  • Scout Team Wildcat

  • Offline
  • ********

  • 6413
  • Personal Text
    Hicks
The NCAA should see how deep the rabbit hole goes.  If this is it, I don't see much recourse.  Maybe a loss of a scholarship.  

Yeah, but it looks like it was mainly a problem with the high school.  It just came out after he was out, though there had to be some information out there about what was going down.  But its too easy in this case of ku to say they didn't know anything was going on and they have the paperwork to back it up.  

Still quite amusing after all the crap we got about Beasley and Walker that this goes down on one of their players.  Of course I'm sure Shady was just a victum of an ugly system and a high school gone bad; probably figured he got those passing scores b/c of his excellent behavior and excellent work ethic.

Catzacker had a good point on this....

Quote
Why is it that ku recruited Arthur, then didn't recruit him, then all of a sudden went after them at the end.  They were acting like recruitment on HS kids starts after their junior year or something.  Coaches get their transcripts immediately and if something changed from one transcript to the next (like say from an F to a B/C) then that's amazing that it didn't spark a question of "hey, how did you get this changed, did you redo the class"



May 16, 2008, 09:20:52 AM
Reply #8

FHSU92

  • Premium Member
  • Senior Cub

  • Offline
  • *

  • 2625
I think we'll send Lew and MF'n Dooley down to Texas.  Bloodbath.

Seriously, what part of this NCAA bylaw is not in play here?

14.1.2 Validity of Academic Credentials. As a condition and obligation of membership, it is the responsibility of a member institution to determine the validity of the information on which the eligibility of a student-athlete is based. Therefore, it is the responsibility of a member institution to determine whether a transcript is valid for purposes of applying appropriate NCAA legislation to the eligibility of a student-athlete when the institution receives notification, or otherwise has cause to believe, that a student-athlete's high school, preparatory school or two-year college transcript is not valid.



Pete, I'm with ya...It's ku's (or any institution) responsibility to provide valid credentials, not the HS/prep school.  It is like the transcript did come from ku as they are responsible for its content.  They either were hiding something, or they did not care or know -- but in any case they are responsible.

May 16, 2008, 09:25:30 AM
Reply #9

Pete

  • Administrator
  • Scout Team Wildcat

  • Offline
  • ********

  • 6413
  • Personal Text
    Hicks
Pete, I'm with ya...It's ku's (or any institution) responsibility to provide valid credentials, not the HS/prep school.  It is like the transcript did come from ku as they are responsible for its content.  They either were hiding something, or they did not care or know -- but in any case they are responsible.

Even if you grant that ku didn't know, and even if you grant that they couldn't have known, you still have a student who lied to the NCAA about his academic credentials, and who should not have been eligible.

The question remains, what happens to the games in which an inelligble player participates?

I fail to see how this is any different than if he had cheated while in college.

May 16, 2008, 09:27:28 AM
Reply #10

catzacker

  • Junior Wildcat

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 8304
  • Personal Text
    Fear the Brick
According to the KC star, he failed a course in '03 that got changed in January  of '05 (the spring semester of his jr. year) and then the acticle also said that Arthur received no grades for the entire fall semester of his jr year (04) only to have them changed in the fall of his senior year (Sept '05).  So.....if ku got his transcripts before these changes were made...then got another one after these chagnes were made, then the NCAA could claim or make a case that they should have questioned it or at least asked a question of "hey, how did you make up like every class?".

May 16, 2008, 10:11:13 AM
Reply #11

sonofdaxjones

  • All American

  • Offline
  • ******

  • 15644
Remember, at one time ku went 2 years without a compliance department, so they're not real big at getting the details over there.


May 16, 2008, 10:20:28 AM
Reply #12

catzacker

  • Junior Wildcat

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 8304
  • Personal Text
    Fear the Brick
ku had an in home with him around 9/12/05....lol...this is when his grades got changed. 

http://kansasstate.rivals.com/content.asp?SID=889&CID=454150

on 8/4/05, ku had "already made the cut" for the Shayd sweepstakes (before grades were changed).

http://kansasstate.rivals.com/content.asp?SID=889&CID=439638

on 6/29/04, "I also like Kansas" said arthur

http://kansasstate.rivals.com/content.asp?SID=889&CID=308067

...kind of deflating the "ku got on him late" talking point.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2008, 10:25:59 AM by catzacker »

May 16, 2008, 11:09:17 AM
Reply #13

catdude33

  • Guest
Another serious question: Why are so many top athletes so dumb?  Passing high school is, like, really easy.

May 16, 2008, 11:18:53 AM
Reply #14

sonofdaxjones

  • All American

  • Offline
  • ******

  • 15644
Please note when his aau coach was getting $2,000 (probably more under the table) to "talk" at the ku basketball camp.


May 16, 2008, 11:43:44 AM
Reply #15

LimestoneOutcropping

  • Administrator
  • Scout Team Wildcat

  • Offline
  • ********

  • 6938
  • Personal Text
    Skate on Sister School
If he couldn't pass high school algebra, how did he keep his grades in a Ivy league institution like ku?

May 16, 2008, 11:53:42 AM
Reply #16

Jesus Shuttlesworth

  • Cub

  • Offline

  • 1955
Why did a 5-star kid ranked #16 in the 2006 class and the 2nd rated player in the state of Texas only end up with 3 offers at the end of his recruitment?


http://kansasstate.rivals.com/viewprospect.asp?pr_key=22048&sport=2#colleges

Welcome back, Bill.

May 16, 2008, 11:56:14 AM
Reply #17

ksuno1stunner

  • Premium Member
  • Cub

  • Offline

  • 1233
Please note when his aau coach was getting $2,000 (probably more under the table) to "talk" at the ku basketball camp.



That is a great f-ing idea imo.

May 16, 2008, 12:11:39 PM
Reply #18

NationalChamps

  • Cub

  • Offline

  • 32
*yawn*

Probably not the only player on ku to have his grades adjusted one way or another, probably half the players on KSU as well, along with every other program in america.

Don't be so naive, this and so much worse goes on at every major program in the country. Hell my dad only played TENNIS for tcu and he was given a list of teachers that he should take classes from, and during tests on true/false questions they would say "Eh, might wanna think about that answer some more"

Its part of the college football and basketball world. Too much money is at risk to let a little something like highschool grades get in the way of these kids getting into schools.

May 16, 2008, 12:14:45 PM
Reply #19

Burgertime

  • Guest
The NCAA penalizing Kansas would be breaking the NCAA clearinghouse agreement with the schools that determines the students eligibility.   Penalties would be on the high school... more scrutiny for student-athletes coming out of the school... and if a recurring theme is established the high school could be designated a diploma mill and kids would not be eligible to exit that school and play in the NCAA.  The clearinghouse cleared Arthur to begin NCAA play so he is eligible as long as everything he did at Kansas is legit.  And my dick is huge.

May 16, 2008, 12:18:40 PM
Reply #20

Jesus Shuttlesworth

  • Cub

  • Offline

  • 1955
*yawn*

Probably not the only player on ku to have his grades adjusted one way or another, probably half the players on KSU as well, along with every other program in america.


Standard "everyone cheats" talking point.  

ku hoops:
- On probation 5 out of the last 6 decades.  
- 2 out of 3 championship teams were either under investigation and put on probation after or on probation at the time of the championship game.
- 2 out of 3 championship teams featured a key starter who's dad was employed as an assistant coach to obtain the players' commitment.  
Welcome back, Bill.

May 16, 2008, 12:19:17 PM
Reply #21

Jesus Shuttlesworth

  • Cub

  • Offline

  • 1955
The NCAA penalizing Kansas would be breaking the NCAA clearinghouse agreement with the schools that determines the students eligibility.   Penalties would be on the high school... more scrutiny for student-athletes coming out of the school... and if a recurring theme is established the high school could be designated a diploma mill and kids would not be eligible to exit that school and play in the NCAA.  The clearinghouse cleared Arthur to begin NCAA play so he is eligible as long as everything he did at Kansas is legit.  And my dick is huge.

Wrong, on all counts. 
Welcome back, Bill.

May 16, 2008, 12:20:58 PM
Reply #22

Burgertime

  • Guest
*yawn*

Probably not the only player on ku to have his grades adjusted one way or another, probably half the players on KSU as well, along with every other program in america.


Standard "everyone cheats" talking point. 

ku hoops:
- On probation 5 out of the last 6 decades. 
- 2 out of 3 championship teams were either under investigation and put on probation after or on probation at the time of the championship game.
- 2 out of 3 championship teams featured a key starter who's dad was employed as an assistant coach to obtain the players' commitment. 



 :dancin: :dancin: :dancin: :thumbsup:

May 16, 2008, 12:22:23 PM
Reply #23

Burgertime

  • Guest
The NCAA penalizing Kansas would be breaking the NCAA clearinghouse agreement with the schools that determines the students eligibility.   Penalties would be on the high school... more scrutiny for student-athletes coming out of the school... and if a recurring theme is established the high school could be designated a diploma mill and kids would not be eligible to exit that school and play in the NCAA.  The clearinghouse cleared Arthur to begin NCAA play so he is eligible as long as everything he did at Kansas is legit.  And my dick is huge.

Wrong, on all counts. 

Right, on all counts.

this is fun.

May 16, 2008, 12:31:16 PM
Reply #24

sonofdaxjones

  • All American

  • Offline
  • ******

  • 15644
I do enjoy the kutard, "Everybody cheats" excuse.

Granted, I have felt for a number of years that K-State had to cheat a lot more in order to get competitive again. 

I just don't know if K-State will ever be able to match the amount of sleaze that consistently surrounds the ku basketball program.

May 16, 2008, 12:41:24 PM
Reply #25

Ben

  • Guest
Please note when his aau coach was getting $2,000 (probably more under the table) to "talk" at the ku basketball camp.





At K-State they give AAU coaches $300,000 salaries.

 :rolleyes:

May 16, 2008, 12:46:50 PM
Reply #26

NationalChamps

  • Cub

  • Offline

  • 32
I do enjoy the kutard, "Everybody cheats" excuse.

Granted, I have felt for a number of years that K-State had to cheat a lot more in order to get competitive again. 

I just don't know if K-State will ever be able to match the amount of sleaze that consistently surrounds the ku basketball program.

You seriously believe that every program does not "Cheat" persay but, fudge numbers, use loopholes, scratch, claw, and do everything in their power to get kids eligible and able to play.

Everybody does. Get over it.

May 16, 2008, 12:47:30 PM
Reply #27

Jesus Shuttlesworth

  • Cub

  • Offline

  • 1955
Please note when his aau coach was getting $2,000 (probably more under the table) to "talk" at the ku basketball camp.





At K-State they give AAU coaches $300,000 salaries.

 :rolleyes:

Completely legal, and much less sleazy than paying a player's dad.  
Welcome back, Bill.

May 16, 2008, 12:49:11 PM
Reply #28

Oklahoma_Cat

  • Senior Cub

  • Offline
  • *

  • 4415
  • Personal Text
    ANGRY AS F*CK
I do enjoy the kutard, "Everybody cheats" excuse.

Granted, I have felt for a number of years that K-State had to cheat a lot more in order to get competitive again. 

I just don't know if K-State will ever be able to match the amount of sleaze that consistently surrounds the ku basketball program.

You seriously believe that every program does not "Cheat" persay but, fudge numbers, use loopholes, scratch, claw, and do everything in their power to get kids eligible and able to play.

Everybody does. Get over it.

Do you know how childish you sound?  "BUT MOMMMMMMMMY, THEY ALL DID IT TOOOOOOOO!"

 :crybaby:

May 16, 2008, 12:55:46 PM
Reply #29

Ben

  • Guest
Please note when his aau coach was getting $2,000 (probably more under the table) to "talk" at the ku basketball camp.





At K-State they give AAU coaches $300,000 salaries.

 :rolleyes:

Completely legal, and much less sleazy than paying a player's dad.  


How is paying a 20-something AAU coach $300,000 a year any more ethical than hiring a guy with a military and coaching background as the Director of Basketball Operations?  It's not like the job requires overwhelming coaching experience... hell, your head basketball coach probably has less coaching experience than Ronnie Chalmers.