Hey Kougs/"Fair" tax/Huckabee supporter. Suck on this sh1t. AKA "Facts"

[Kat Kid]

[sys]

stick a special "rich guy" tax on the + 200k people and then maybe bump up the prebate very slightly, and it looks very workable.

[Kat Kid]

Except for the fact that Tony Soprano would turn into Biff Tannen from Back to the Future II selling all manner of goods and services without the enormous sales tax and with a nice healthy cut for himself.

Think of all the transactions that you make currently that aren't subject to sales tax:  lawn mowing from down the street, lemonade stand set up by those cute lil' kids, scalped tickets.

If that tax got passed, you would be behind a dark alley "scalping" a new washer/drier so you didn't get yanked for a $400 tax on them.

[cireksu]

we'd be russia.

[cireksu]

It doesn't really matter, our government will never change anything that drastically.

However if we did have one, how would they tax overseas purchases?  Would amazon open shop in Europe or Asia or...



CHINA!

[sys]

Except for the fact that Tony Soprano would turn into Biff Tannen from Back to the Future II selling all manner of goods and services without the enormous sales tax and with a nice healthy cut for himself.

Think of all the transactions that you make currently that aren't subject to sales tax:  lawn mowing from down the street, lemonade stand set up by those cute lil' kids, scalped tickets.

If that tax got passed, you would be behind a dark alley "scalping" a new washer/drier so you didn't get yanked for a $400 tax on them.

i spend most of my time in countries like this.  i like it.


i also like tax evasion by the enterprising poor than tax evasion by the mobile and educated rich.

[AzCat]

Pure FUD.  That chart only compares income tax paid versus a retail sales tax.  It does not account for payroll taxes, excise taxes, and the embedded cost of taxes paid by businesses that are rolled into the cost of every good and service (roughly another $0.20-0.30 per dollar spent depending on who you believe). 

But it is &@#%ing criminal how little people making less than $100k/year pay in income tax.   

[sys]

Pure FUD.  That chart only compares income tax paid versus a retail sales tax.  It does not account for payroll taxes, excise taxes, and the embedded cost of taxes paid by businesses that are rolled into the cost of every good and service (roughly another $0.20-0.30 per dollar spent depending on who you believe). 

But it is fracking criminal how little people making less than $100k/year pay in income tax.   

you do realize that the chart is "% of taxes paid by whom", not "% of income paid in taxes"?

[AzCat]

Pure FUD.  That chart only compares income tax paid versus a retail sales tax.  It does not account for payroll taxes, excise taxes, and the embedded cost of taxes paid by businesses that are rolled into the cost of every good and service (roughly another $0.20-0.30 per dollar spent depending on who you believe). 

But it is fracking criminal how little people making less than $100k/year pay in income tax.   

you do realize that the chart is "% of taxes paid by whom", not "% of income paid in taxes"?

ORLY?  Then why does it clearly state "FEDERAL INCOME TAX BURDEN" right at the top of the chart?    

[sys]

because that is an accurate description of the data portrayed?  my guess, anyways.

i wonder what "percent of federal income or sales tax paid" means?




are you truly so out of touch with reality that you believe americans earning 200k+ pay 53% of their income in federal income taxes?

[mjrod]

because that is an accurate description of the data portrayed?  my guess, anyways.

i wonder what "percent of federal income or sales tax paid" means?




are you truly so out of touch with reality that you believe americans earning 200k+ pay 53% of their income in federal income taxes?

I think AzCat was saying that out of the total income tax paid to the coffers, those making over 200K represent 53% of the amount.

AzCat was talking about the other taxes that do not count as income tax that businesses and individuals are charged that many middle and lower class people never get to pay and are not represented on that chart (such as state, luxury, inheritance, gifts, etc..)

[PCR]

That graph just shows the truth--that the burden will shift from higher income people to lower income people.. duh they spend more of their income % wise. 

You guys need to find some prominent economists who support such a system and come back to us thx.

It's utter nonsense.  People support this because it sounds good and have not done any real analysis of what it would mean to the economy.  For the record the Dem candidates were spewing things last night about the tax code that was just as nonsensical. (the main reason I think Edwards is a poor candidate.)   It's designed the way it is for a very specific reason, and that is to stimulate economic growth and job production.  It works quite well. although there are some crazy loopholes that big corporations are driving their own truck through right now. 

I fail to see how any tax system that discourages people from spending money can be good for the economy as a whole.  If you work for a company that sells expensive widgets to other companies (like I do), they will have to pay sales taxes on those widgets, rather than writing the expense off and reducing the company tax burden.  Unless they just exempt companies from paying tax altogether, which is probably what their plan is so that middle class people (employees, not investors) can pick up the slack. 

[sys]

I fail to see how any tax system that discourages people from spending money can be good for the economy as a whole.

which is better for an economy: unbridled consumption or savings and investment?

the accumulation of capital builds wealth, imo.  not the accumulation of rapidly depreciating chinese consumer electronics.   

[sys]

I think AzCat was saying that out of the total income tax paid to the coffers, those making over 200K represent 53% of the amount.

no he wasn't.  i said that.

[mjrod]

I think AzCat was saying that out of the total income tax paid to the coffers, those making over 200K represent 53% of the amount.

no he wasn't.  i said that.

My bad.

I didn't read the line he said about how little people making under $100K per year were paying.

[jeffy]

Unfortunately, that chart completely disregards all the money pulled in as a result of the taxation of those that have never filed a tax return, such as tax-evaders and illegal aliens. 

[Kat Kid]

Unfortunately, that chart completely disregards all the money pulled in as a result of the taxation of those that have never filed a tax return, such as tax-evaders and illegal aliens. 

Hey dumb ass.  Illegal aliens not filing a tax return means they don't get their rebate check.  They also don't collect their social security checks.  They are a net positive on tax evasion grounds.

[jeffy]

Unfortunately, that chart completely disregards all the money pulled in as a result of the taxation of those that have never filed a tax return, such as tax-evaders and illegal aliens. 

Hey dumb ass.  Illegal aliens not filing a tax return means they don't get their rebate check.  They also don't collect their social security checks.  They are a net positive on tax evasion grounds.

That's what I said.

But very few illegals are old enough to dream of social security....

This chart just doesn't take all that into account.

[sys]

the chart, although a great chart, only pretends to graphically illustrate one aspect of the tax revenue debate.

rather than force the chart to answer for all taxation issues, i wonder if there might be other, slightly different, tax charts that would illustrate other aspects of taxation in america?

[kougar24]

You guys need to find some prominent economists who support such a system and come back to us thx.

Here are 80 of them, for starters. Welcome.

[kougar24]

Except for the fact that Tony Soprano would turn into Biff Tannen from Back to the Future II selling all manner of goods and services without the enormous sales tax and with a nice healthy cut for himself.

Think of all the transactions that you make currently that aren't subject to sales tax:  lawn mowing from down the street, lemonade stand set up by those cute lil' kids, scalped tickets.

If that tax got passed, you would be behind a dark alley "scalping" a new washer/drier so you didn't get yanked for a $400 tax on them.

"The FairTax will not be enforceable and evasion will be rampant"

The truth: More than 80% of all tax returns are eliminated under the FairTax--every individual filing. What remains are retail outlets collecting the FairTax. Of these, 80 percent of all retail sales now occur at large retail chains like Wal-Mart. The point is oversight will still reside under the Treasury Department but the government's responsibility will be over a far smaller "universe" of tax collection points making compliance oversight far less costly and far more effective than the current system which costs $265 billion a year in compliance costs and still comes up $350 billion a year short of what is owed.