Last time KSU was 7-0?

[michigancat]

Beating NU was important to Bill.  I've talked to several players (circa 1996-2001) who said that the week of the Nebraska game was some of the most intense practices and when the coaches were more intense than any other week.  ku was an after thought at that point because we could roll our 2nd and 3rd team out there and beat them.  No one cared about ku because they didn't matter. 

He should have tried harder.  Like, really hard.

do rivalry games exist?

Who said they didn't?

[sonofdaxjones]

I made my point before. Beating ku is indeed important for recruiting.

Really?

Where's the evidence?

In 2007, after losing 2 of 3, KSU signed 6 of the top 20 in Kansas.  ku signed 4.

In 2004, after winning 11 straight and coming off a Big 12 title, KSU signed 4 of the top 15.  ku signed 3.

I say not beating ku diminishes beating a team that's "normally" good by quite a bit.   Of course using the Rusty logic which dictates that since a guy like Bill Snyder didn't come out and publicly say that beating ku and (and MU as well) wasn't important . . . then it had to be just like every other game.   

I said beating ku and MU was equally important.  Both are more important than beating Baylor or Iowa State, less important than beating Nebraska or OU or Texas.

Really, I wish Snyder would have made beating Nebraska a higher priority than sh*tty Kansas and Mizzou teams.  Maybe he gets an NC in 97 if he'd tried harder against Nebraska.

In 1995 ku finished in the Top 10, in 1996 and 1997 MU fielded a pretty good team . . . Snyder pussed out at NU in 1997.

[swish1]

do rivalry games exist?

Who said they didn't?

well since a team shouldnt get up for one game more than others i was just curious as to what makes a game a rivalry game.

you are crazy if you dont think michigan and ohio state dont want to beat each other worse than they want to beat any other team but i guess that makes them weak teams.

[novembereleven]

BMW...I'd say you're right for those who still live in the area.  Everybody wants to have bragging rights at the water cooler and all that fun stuff.  However, beating a "name" team gets you a lot further in program perception outside that area (as well as in the national media) where they think ku and KSU are the same school or just don't give a damn either way.

Now having said that...the one ironic silver lining for me and a definite good thing for the North is the ku & Mizzou surges, KSU & CU's percieved upsets and genuine decent play vs. the South this year has proven the North can garner a little respect without the help of the Nubbs.  To me that's pretty damned funny and yet another reason for Nubb fans to get over themselves.  I like the direction the North is going with some young QB talent and I absolutely love the direction Nebraska is going.

[michigancat]

well since a team shouldnt get up for one game more than others i was just curious as to what makes a game a rivalry game.

Rad trophies!

you are crazy if you dont think michigan and ohio state dont want to beat each other worse than they want to beat any other team but i guess that makes them weak teams.

Well, I think Ohio State should have tried just as hard to beat Florida as they did Michigan last year.  What the f*ck do I know, though?

[swish1]

well since a team shouldnt get up for one game more than others i was just curious as to what makes a game a rivalry game.

Rad trophies!

you are crazy if you dont think michigan and ohio state dont want to beat each other worse than they want to beat any other team but i guess that makes them weak teams.

Well, I think Ohio State should have tried just as hard to beat Florida as they did Michigan last year.  What the f*ck do I know, though?

yea, in the national championship game...

good argument though.  i suppose i should have stated during a regular season game.

[kougar24]

Really, I wish Snyder would have made beating Nebraska a higher priority than sh*tty Kansas and Mizzou teams.  Maybe he gets an NC in 97 if he'd tried harder against Nebraska.

So, since you said only "weak" teams try harder in some games than others, you're implying Snyder's K-State teams were weak.

Can you give me examples of teams that give equal effort, focus, and attention to every game on their schedule?

Thx.

[JesusShuttlesworth]

I know most of you will deny it, but losing to Kansas hurts you more than losing to anyone else in the country.  I won't argue that beating Kansas is as important to you guys as beating Texas/Oklahoma, but it's up there.  You're in denial if you can't admit that you're a little nervous about the way that the rivalry has evolved.  Kansas is becoming a lot like Bill Snyder's program at Kansas State.   

I will admit that when ku fan admits that losing to KSU in Basketball is important. Oh, comparing ku/Mangina to what Bill Snyder did is ridiculous. If you compare what Mangina has done this year to when Marshall was undefeated a while back I will buy that. Again refer to above as to where the ku win stands.

I think that most Kansas fans would admit that any rivalry game is important.  However, in basketball, individual games aren't as important as they are in football, so it's hard to really compare.  Kansas also plays its rivals (K-State and Mizzou) twice in conference play, so there's always the chance of getting redemption in the same season.  

On the Synder/Mangino comparison, you've got to take a look at what both coaches had done at this point in their careers.  Here are some interesting facts (found this on phog):

Both of their first seasons were awful, Snyder 1-10, Mangino 2-10, mostly because of inheriting a bad team. Both coaches’ teams struggled on the road. Through the first five and a half years of Snyder’s career, Kansas State was 5-21 away from Manhattan. Through five and a half years, Kansas is 6-21 under Mangino away from Lawrence.

The formula Bill Snyder used for making Kansas State a national power is also similar to what Mangino did to gain national recognition. Both coaches have added wins to the schedule by playing soft opponents during the nonconference part of the season. Through five and a half seasons, Snyder’s nonconference record was 18-6. Mangino, through the first five and a half season’s of his career, has gone 18-6 in nonconference play.

For a team near the cellar of college football, recruiting can be tricky, and coaches have to find players that marquis schools overlook. Players that come from a junior college or players that are undersized for their position are what Snyder capitalized on and what Mangino is also doing.

On Oct. 22, 1994, the Kansas State Wildcats were 4-2 (1-2 Big 8 ) under Bill Snyder and went on to finish the season 9-3 (5-2 Big 8 ). They finished the season ranked No. 19 in the AP poll, and No. 16 in the CNN/USA Today Coaches’ Poll. They were nearly a permanent fixture in the rankings for the next ten years.

Today, Oct. 22, 2007, Kansas is ranked No. 12 in the AP poll, No. 10 in the USA Today Coaches Poll and No. 9 in the BCS poll. Kansas is undefeated at 7-0 under Mark Mangino. Though Bill Snyder was well on his way in establishing Kansas State as a national power five years into his coaching career, it was not until 1998 when Kansas State went 7-0.

Mark Mangino was an assistant coach at Kansas State from 1991-1998 and was around to witness Bill Snyder build a football team from a laughing stock to a national power. Through five and a half years of coaching, both coaches careers look similar. It was clear that Mangino learned a thing or two under Bill Snyder. It will not be surprising to see Kansas football enjoy success similar to that which Snyder brought to Kansas State.

Do you have any thoughts of your own on the matter, or are you just going to plagiarize the entire article?  Geez, at least put quotes in there for the stuff lifted directly from the article.  

[michigancat]

Really, I wish Snyder would have made beating Nebraska a higher priority than sh*tty Kansas and Mizzou teams.  Maybe he gets an NC in 97 if he'd tried harder against Nebraska.

So, since you said only "weak" teams try harder in some games than others, you're implying Snyder's K-State teams were weak.

They were weak relative to Nebraska.  WHY DIDN'T YOU TRY HARD, BILL??!?!??!?!?!   

Can you give me examples of teams that give equal effort, focus, and attention to every game on their schedule?

How the hell do you quantify that?  Intentionally trying harder for Kansas compared to other conference games is foolish, IMO.  I don't see how you could prove that wrong, or why you would try.

Do you think coaches have a magical "pump up" knob or something that they crank to 11 for certain games, or that they have a limit to the amount of "pump up-edness" they can use in a season?

[kougar24]

Really, I wish Snyder would have made beating Nebraska a higher priority than sh*tty Kansas and Mizzou teams.  Maybe he gets an NC in 97 if he'd tried harder against Nebraska.

So, since you said only "weak" teams try harder in some games than others, you're implying Snyder's K-State teams were weak.

They were weak relative to Nebraska.  WHY DIDN'T YOU TRY HARD, BILL??!?!??!?!?!   

Can you give me examples of teams that give equal effort, focus, and attention to every game on their schedule?

How the hell do you quantify that?  Intentionally trying harder for Kansas compared to other conference games is foolish, IMO.  I don't see how you could prove that wrong, or why you would try.

Do you think coaches have a magical "pump up" knob or something that they crank to 11 for certain games, or that they have a limit to the amount of "pump up-edness" they can use in a season?

Who said anything about "intentional"? It's human nature.

[mjrod]

Really, I wish Snyder would have made beating Nebraska a higher priority than sh*tty Kansas and Mizzou teams.  Maybe he gets an NC in 97 if he'd tried harder against Nebraska.

So, since you said only "weak" teams try harder in some games than others, you're implying Snyder's K-State teams were weak.

They were weak relative to Nebraska.  WHY DIDN'T YOU TRY HARD, BILL??!?!??!?!?!   

Can you give me examples of teams that give equal effort, focus, and attention to every game on their schedule?

How the hell do you quantify that?  Intentionally trying harder for Kansas compared to other conference games is foolish, IMO.  I don't see how you could prove that wrong, or why you would try.

Do you think coaches have a magical "pump up" knob or something that they crank to 11 for certain games, or that they have a limit to the amount of "pump up-edness" they can use in a season?

In the end, while he lost his last game to Nebraska, he pretty much made Nebraska irrelevant and sent them to mediocrity hell.

So at least he'll die happy.

I'm not sure you ever will, but that's a whole 'nother thread.

 

[catzacker]

I think the idea that teams/coaches have the same focus week in and week out is absurd.  Further, I think it's just as absurd to try to correlate focus and winning.  Primarily, it kind of has to do with having better players.  

[michigancat]

Who said anything about "intentional"? It's human nature.

Um, you and dax in reference to Bill Snyder placing more importance on the Kansas game.

[michigancat]

I think the idea that teams/coaches have the same focus week in and week out is absurd.  Further, I think it's just as absurd to try to correlate focus and winning.  Primarily, it kind of has to do with having better players. 

I pretty much agree, when I said only "weak" teams do that, I probably should have said only "weak teams let it cost them games".

[catzacker]

I think the idea that teams/coaches have the same focus week in and week out is absurd.  Further, I think it's just as absurd to try to correlate focus and winning.  Primarily, it kind of has to do with having better players. 

I pretty much agree, when I said only "weak" teams do that, I probably should have said only "weak teams let it cost them games".

It just goes back to my point about ku and ksu never being good at the same time for an extended period of time.  I mean, as I pointed out (sarcasm didn't get through) Bill really wanted to win that NU game because he knew that to knock them off would mean the program was taking the next step (because NU was good, really good).  We didn't start consistently beating them ('98 - '03) until we got better players...the better players came from winning all the other games besides the NU game.

If ku and KSU are both good/great programs for the next decade, the game will actually turn into a real rivalry, rather than what it is today, which is some imaginery/make believe shift of power in the state.  The primary reason that ku sucked during Snyder's era was because they hired freaking Terry Allen and he sucked as a coach and couldn't recruit.    The reason ku is 7-0 right now is because they have a good team, not because snyder isn't the coach at KSU or because Ron read more books during the ku week than during the UT week.   

[michigancat]

^Exactly.

[kougar24]

I think the idea that teams/coaches have the same focus week in and week out is absurd.  Further, I think it's just as absurd to try to correlate focus and winning.  Primarily, it kind of has to do with having better players. 

when I said only "weak" teams do that, I probably should have said only "weak teams let it cost them games".

That would be acceptable.

[sonofdaxjones]

Okay there Rusty, you keep telling yourself that the ku game didn't mean anything more than any other game while watching that well known funster Bill Snyder jump up into the arms of Jim Leavitt (or was it Del Miller??) after that 1991 ku game, he did that a whole bunch after other wins.   

[Newbie]

On the Synder/Mangino comparison, you've got to take a look at what both coaches had done at this point in their careers.  Here are some interesting facts (found this on phog):

Both of their first seasons were awful, Snyder 1-10, Mangino 2-10, mostly because of inheriting a bad team. Both coaches’ teams struggled on the road. Through the first five and a half years of Snyder’s career, Kansas State was 5-21 away from Manhattan. Through five and a half years, Kansas is 6-21 under Mangino away from Lawrence.

The formula Bill Snyder used for making Kansas State a national power is also similar to what Mangino did to gain national recognition. Both coaches have added wins to the schedule by playing soft opponents during the nonconference part of the season. Through five and a half seasons, Snyder’s nonconference record was 18-6. Mangino, through the first five and a half season’s of his career, has gone 18-6 in nonconference play.

For a team near the cellar of college football, recruiting can be tricky, and coaches have to find players that marquis schools overlook. Players that come from a junior college or players that are undersized for their position are what Snyder capitalized on and what Mangino is also doing.

On Oct. 22, 1994, the Kansas State Wildcats were 4-2 (1-2 Big 8 ) under Bill Snyder and went on to finish the season 9-3 (5-2 Big 8 ). They finished the season ranked No. 19 in the AP poll, and No. 16 in the CNN/USA Today Coaches’ Poll. They were nearly a permanent fixture in the rankings for the next ten years.

Today, Oct. 22, 2007, Kansas is ranked No. 12 in the AP poll, No. 10 in the USA Today Coaches Poll and No. 9 in the BCS poll. Kansas is undefeated at 7-0 under Mark Mangino. Though Bill Snyder was well on his way in establishing Kansas State as a national power five years into his coaching career, it was not until 1998 when Kansas State went 7-0.

Mark Mangino was an assistant coach at Kansas State from 1991-1998 and was around to witness Bill Snyder build a football team from a laughing stock to a national power. Through five and a half years of coaching, both coaches careers look similar. It was clear that Mangino learned a thing or two under Bill Snyder. It will not be surprising to see Kansas football enjoy success similar to that which Snyder brought to Kansas State.

The problem is you are comparing Mangino to a certain future Hall-of-Famer based on what Mangino has done in 5 1/2 years.  Snyder was not close to a Hall-of-Famer after the 1994 season (although he perhaps already had laid claim to the greatest turnaround in history).

It is a logical fallacy to say ku will now have a decade of dominant football because Mangino's #s are similar to Snyder's at this point.  You can just as easily compare Mangino to Glen Mason, who also had a breakthrough in his fifth season.  There's no way of knowing where ku's program will go from here, and it makes you look utterly ridiculous to say Mangino=future Hall-of-Famer at this point.

[michigancat]

Okay there Rusty, you keep telling yourself that the ku game didn't mean anything more than any other game while watching that well known funster Bill Snyder jump up into the arms of Jim Leavitt (or was it Del Miller??) after that 1991 ku game, he did that a whole bunch after other wins.   

I never said it didn't mean more to Snyder.  I doubt he put significantly more effort into one opponent than any other, though.  Even if he did, that doesn't necessarily make that game more important for the health of the program than Missouri, for example.  Like I alluded to earlier, mimicking every detail of Snyder's tenure is not a requirement for success at Kansas State.

[sonofdaxjones]

Okay there Rusty, you keep telling yourself that the ku game didn't mean anything more than any other game while watching that well known funster Bill Snyder jump up into the arms of Jim Leavitt (or was it Del Miller??) after that 1991 ku game, he did that a whole bunch after other wins.   

I never said it didn't mean more to Snyder.  I doubt he put significantly more effort into one opponent than any other, though.  Even if he did, that doesn't necessarily make that game more important for the health of the program than Missouri, for example.  Like I alluded to earlier, mimicking every detail of Snyder's tenure is not a requirement for success at Kansas State.

Okay . . . albeit I have never said that there was a need to mimic Snyder on everything.  I just never bought the "no one game is more important" spiel from Snyder because I knew better, and I could simply tell by his mannerisms after certain games that was not the case.

[catzacker]

Okay there Rusty, you keep telling yourself that the ku game didn't mean anything more than any other game while watching that well known funster Bill Snyder jump up into the arms of Jim Leavitt (or was it Del Miller??) after that 1991 ku game, he did that a whole bunch after other wins.   

They were going crazy against North Texas in '89 too.  Bill didn't do much celebrating past '95 (coincidentally that's about when winning became second nature/expected and we began to get good players).  BTW, it was Leavitt.  

[sonofdaxjones]

Okay there Rusty, you keep telling yourself that the ku game didn't mean anything more than any other game while watching that well known funster Bill Snyder jump up into the arms of Jim Leavitt (or was it Del Miller??) after that 1991 ku game, he did that a whole bunch after other wins.   

They were going crazy against North Texas in '89 too.  Bill didn't do much celebrating past '95 (coincidentally that's about when winning became second nature/expected and we began to get good players).  BTW, it was Leavitt.  

And like I said after the 1996 game against MU he was giddy as hell  . . . probably because he and Larry Smith hated each others guts, and you can't tell me that he didn't put a little extra . . . an "11" on that week.

[The Manhatter]

gee, I wonder if the '97 and '00 teams could compete w/ what is the '07 Kansas juggernaut?

Hmmm...the reason '97 and '00 didn't go 7-0 to start the season might, just might be because in game 4 of '97 KSU played at eventual national champ Nebraska and in the 7th game of '00 welcomed eventual national champ Oklahoma.

[mjrod]

ku fans don't get it.

What happened at KSU is magnitudes greater than what ku is and ever hopes to achieve  of what Snyder did.

You can say "Well, Mangino got to 7-0 faster than Snyder" as if that has any bearing on reality.  What you do the entire season is what matters. 

Capt. Argyle has been on here trying to get us to buy that ku is a good team, and i don't think many people will disagree, but if you're going to make a comparison between the two programs as far as what one coach did vs. another, Mangino doesn't hold a candle because despite Terry Allen's ineptness, he still won games.   Mangino did not take over a team that was on the verge of being kicked out of a conference and relegated to a lower division.  He turned it into a national powerhouse, something ku has never done in the same manner in which Snyder has done.

No one, and I mean no one including almost every pundit expects ku to make a run for the NC this year, or any year because ku has good coaching and OK talent.   Beating KSU is the only thing you can hold your hat on, but really, when ku did strings of wins against KSU, it wasn't because ku was a world beater,  it was because KSU was much worse.   The level of comparison is not even the same when you consider that when KSU broke the most wins streak, KSU was also building winning steaks against every other Big8/Big12 team and making a name for KSU that was on a national level YEAR IN AND YEAR OUT.   Until ku can do that consistently (going to a bowl game every other year for the last four or five years doesn't really cut it) then saying ku has a good team is fine for now, but your program still has a ways to go.

And don't compare ku's team with other KSU's team.  I'm sure that if Snyder had his best program and played against this ku team, the score might be closer, but not by much.

[Levi Wolters]

I can't tell when JS is serious any more, (if he ever is).

he's part of the ku inferiority ksu fans. (zacker, cire)

just garbage posters imo.

ku is losing:

No   Name   Pos   Yr   Ex   Meas
4   Gary Green   CB   Sr.   2V   5-9/175
15   Kyle Tucker   P   Sr.   3V   6-2/210
19   Brian Seymour   S   Sr.   2V   6-1/190
27   Sadiq Muhammed   S   Sr.   2V   6-0/190
35   Brandon McAnderson   FB   Sr.   3V   6-0/235
39   Scott Webb   K   Sr.   3V   5-11/180
49   Derek Spears   TE   Sr.   2V   6-3/215
65   Cesar Rodriguez   OT   Sr.   3V   6-7/290
67   Rameses Arceo   OG   Sr.   SQ   6-4/300
75   Marcus Anderson   DT   Sr.   1V   6-4/290
82   Jeff Foster   WR   Sr.   2V   6-2/195
83   Marc Jones   TE   Sr.   JC   6-4/250
85   Derek Fine   TE   Sr.   3V   6-3/245
86   Marcus Henry   WR   Sr.   3V   6-4/210
93   James McClinton   DT   Sr.   3V   6-1/285

HUGE, HUGE loss, btw.

[cireksu]

It's funny that ku fans like BMW have absolutely no idea how loaded the big 8/12 was from 93-02.

[sonofdaxjones]

It's funny that ku fans like BMW have absolutely no idea how loaded the big 8/12 was from 93-02.

All you have to do is realize that Terry Allen played 3x's as many games against ranked Big 12 opponents in 5 years than Mark Mangino did.

[BMWJhawk]

It's funny that ku fans like BMW have absolutely no idea how loaded the big 8/12 was from 93-02.

Oh, I fully realize how loaded the Big 8/12 was from '93-02.  Heck, Kansas was ranked #6 in '95.  I realize how good teams like K-State, Colorado, and Nebraska were.  Oklahoma wasn't any good until Stoops took over and won the National Championship in '00 with Mangino as offensive coordinator.  Texas wasn't the juggernaut that it is now. 

The thing that's funny is that K-State fans don't realize how absolutely pathetic Kansas' football program was during the Terry Allen years.  The man left Mangino with a 2-10 D-1AA team.  It was similar to what Snyder was left with, especially after Mangino kicked off the two best player for stealing a girl's purse (Mario Kinsey and Brandon Duncan).  Mangino had to literally start from scratch and throw the towel in for an entire season just to see who was worth a scholarship. 

Kansas has been a few breaks away from having this kind of success for a few years now, and this is the year that the recruiting and hard work has finally paid off.  Having a competent offensive coordinator in Ed Warriner also helps tremendously.  The young players in this program are the ones leading this team, and the program is just going to keep getting better.  I'm tellin' ya, Kansas is for real.

[cireksu]

Terry allen had to play against top 10 team, national title contenders every year, in the north.