watching 00 ccg

[KSU4ME]

If his arm was dead, and he had to rely on smarts, would giving him more time be good or bad?

[Skipper44]

my opinion was giving him more time would not have been bad.  What i remember was he lofted the ball to single coverage where the taller OU receivers made plays, especially the TE in b12 champ game.  If we had dropped more in to coverage and made him settle for underneath stuff I think we would have been more successfull, especially on 3rd down.  He did not have the arm to force any throws into tight spots.  This is where Bennetts ultra aggressive scheme failed, we needed to be more bend but don't break not attack and destroy, but attack and destroy is all we ever did under Bennett.  I will admit attack and destroy was a hell of alot of fun to watch.

[KSU4ME]

You might be the only person alive that thinks giving Heupel more time would result in better pass defense than 220 yards on 44 attempts with 3 interceptions.

The bottom line is that Bennet's game plan forced Heupel to throw underneath.  No OU WR had more than 2 receptions or 40 yards.  Trent Smith and Q combined for 15 receptions and 134 yards.  More than all the WRs combined.

[Kat Kid]

I would trade half of the guys on our roster for Coop, he was a huge playmaker, and for every blown coverage he gave us 3 TFLs.  Not to mention the lynch mob attitude.  But he was far from a complete safety, as excellent as he was at the LOS, he sucked just as hard dropping back.

Cooper was bad in coverage, period.  And when he was in position to make a play, he always dropped the INT.

Trent Smith was no superior athlete.  The guy has caught 3 NFL passes.  Is this the image of a killer TE?



It's also not as easy as saying Coop should have never been in a scheme that had him 1:1 with a TE.  LBs cover TEs on MANY plays.  If you always have to provide Cooper help with the TE in any passing situation, our attacking defense all of a sudden is a lot less attacking.  Are you going to put Carter and/or Tyler out there with no FS just because Coop can't cover the TE?  If you're not going to use another DB, you just lost numerical superiority in the pass rush.  Bob Stoops covered TEs 1:1 as DC when he was there, and no one complained. 

Smith was at least 2nd/third best TE in the Big XII that year.  I believe he made the All-Big XII team if you care to look it up.

He wasn't good because he didn't have much of an NFL career?  That is mindless.  I guess Ell Roberson, Darren Sproles, Lawrence Phillips and Tommie Frazier all sucked too.

SS cover TE often.  No doubt about it.  SS do not often cover TE in college when they are split wide of the tackle and in space with no help over the top.

I never said it wasn't an ultimately effective plan, I never said it was Coop's forte but you were the moron spouting of logical black holes comparing/contrasting tetuan and cooper.  If you need more evidence for Bennett's mental instability and "rush first and second and third" mentality think back to the Tennessee game when Travis Henry broke a 80+ yard run in the 4th quarter b/c Bennett put 10 guys in the box on a third and short.  He was insane.  Tennessee was done by 28 points and he wouldn't turn off the heat and let them try to drive the whole field.  It explains alot.

[cireksu]

Bennett Blitzed all the time on passing downs to pressure the qb, Heuple(?) was chucking it up for smith every time he was 1 on 1 with coop.  Coop didn't know how to turn and look for the ball.

[KSU4ME]

Smith was at least 2nd/third best TE in the Big XII that year.  I believe he made the All-Big XII team if you care to look it up.

He wasn't good because he didn't have much of an NFL career?  That is mindless.  I guess Ell Roberson, Darren Sproles, Lawrence Phillips and Tommie Frazier all sucked too.

SS cover TE often.  No doubt about it.  SS do not often cover TE in college when they are split wide of the tackle and in space with no help over the top.

I never said it wasn't an ultimately effective plan, I never said it was Coop's forte but you were the moron spouting of logical black holes comparing/contrasting tetuan and cooper.  If you need more evidence for Bennett's mental instability and "rush first and second and third" mentality think back to the Tennessee game when Travis Henry broke a 80+ yard run in the 4th quarter b/c Bennett put 10 guys in the box on a third and short.  He was insane.  Tennessee was done by 28 points and he wouldn't turn off the heat and let them try to drive the whole field.  It explains alot.

He wasn't All Big XII in 2000, Tracey Wistrom had that honor.  He was an underclassman in 2000. 

And double LOLs at using Sproles, Roberson, Frazier and LP to defend TRENT SMITH.  Do you really think those are good comparison points?  I can't believe you actually typed that.

Keep pumping up Trent Smith, it's the cornerstone of your argument.

You'd look much more intelligent if you just admitted that Coop sucked in coverage, and Bennett chose not to sacrifice the defensive scheme that worked for the other 10 players to Coops weakness.

And it worked very, very well against OU in the CCG, and incredibly well overall (read 10th in pass defense and 6th in pass efficiency defense).

[fatty fat fat]

And it worked very, very well against OU in the CCG, and incredibly well overall (read 10th in pass defense and 6th in pass efficiency defense).

A monkey could have coached that defense to those rankings.

Bottom line is the defense faltered vs the big time teams that year. Gave up on average 32 points per game vs OU and NU.

[Kat Kid]

did I say "All-Big XII first team?"

no.  I used the others to show that NCAA-NFL is irrelevant.  I used better players to show the extent of that irrelevance.

Just so you know:

Shattered school career-records with 154 receptions for 1,445 yards (9.4 avg) and 16 TDs, topping the previous marks of 114 catches by Eddie Hinton (1966-68) and 13 TDs by Keith Jackson (1984-87)...His 1,445 yards rank sixth on the Sooners’ all-time record list...Was a John Mackey Award finalist and All-American selection as a junior...

My point is this:  Bennett's scheme put Cooper in a situation that VERY few other SS would be put in.  OU exploited this further by splitting out Smith on an island to make Coop cover him in space.  That is highly unusual in college, especially 7 years ago.  Not many teams had a TE with as much athleticism/size/hands that they were splitting out like that.

[KSU4ME]

And it worked very, very well against OU in the CCG, and incredibly well overall (read 10th in pass defense and 6th in pass efficiency defense).

A monkey could have coached that defense to those rankings.

Bottom line is the defense faltered vs the big time teams that year. Gave up on average 32 points per game vs OU and NU.

If you believe that, then you are less than a monkey.

[fatty fat fat]

Look at the defensive talent. Cement, face.

[Kat Kid]

Look at the defensive talent. Cement, face.

1999 Defense might've been even better considering the O.

They had some ridiculous +21 TO ratio.

[fatty fat fat]

Bennett easily coaches our most talented defenses. 99, 00 and 01 were all stacked. Even moreso than pre 99, post 01.

[michigancat]

Look at the defensive talent. Cement, face.

Weren't like 9 of 11 starters drafted?  You'd think you could adjust the scheme a little to help protect the one glaring weakness the team had.

[Kat Kid]

Bennett easily coaches our most talented defenses. 99, 00 and 01 were all stacked. Even moreso than pre 99, post 01.

Wait.  2003 we had--------> "There's that man again. . . Teddy Simms!"

[KSU4ME]

did I say "All-Big XII first team?"

no.  I used the others to show that NCAA-NFL is irrelevant.  I used better players to show the extent of that irrelevance.

Just so you know:

Shattered school career-records with 154 receptions for 1,445 yards (9.4 avg) and 16 TDs, topping the previous marks of 114 catches by Eddie Hinton (1966-68) and 13 TDs by Keith Jackson (1984-87)...His 1,445 yards rank sixth on the Sooners’ all-time record list...Was a John Mackey Award finalist and All-American selection as a junior...

My point is this:  Bennett's scheme put Cooper in a situation that VERY few other SS would be put in.  OU exploited this further by splitting out Smith on an island to make Coop cover him in space.  That is highly unusual in college, especially 7 years ago.  Not many teams had a TE with as much athleticism/size/hands that they were splitting out like that.

You compared Trent Smith with Sproles, Roberson, LP and Frazier.  That's just plain stupid.

And at the end of the day, no matter how much you want to whine about Bennett's scheme, it was incredibly effective in the CCG.  That's the bottom line.  The weak link wasn't the scheme, it was the player.

And a safety over a split out TE isn't exactly uncommon, in college or the NFL.  I'm not sure why you thought it was some radical concept.  If the TE is tight on the line, it's more likely to get a LB in coverage, like Travis Ochs did so well.  When the TE splits out, a safety usually gets the coverage.  You don't see teams double covering the TE every time he's split out.

Think about what you're saying for just one second.  If you think a second DB is needed for deep coverage every time the TE is split out, then you're saying that you would never provide help on a WR in that situation.  Or you would call a timeout and put in a nickel/dime package every time a coach split out his TE.

This is why you're not a coach.

You should stick to highlighting the similarities between Tommie Frazier and Trent Smith.

[KSU4ME]

Look at the defensive talent. Cement, face.

It was crazy talented.  You typically find a bunch of good, NFL quality players on BCS teams with top 10 defenses.

And even with the talent, it leaves you somewhere south of a monkey.

[fatty fat fat]

We allowed 23.67 ppg in conference play in 2000.

Yuck.

[michigancat]

And a safety over a split out TE isn't exactly uncommon, in college or the NFL.  I'm not sure why you thought it was some radical concept.  If the TE is tight on the line, it's more likely to get a LB in coverage, like Travis Ochs did so well.  When the TE splits out, a safety usually gets the coverage.  You don't see teams double covering the TE every time he's split out.

It wasn't common back then at all.  And part of creating a good scheme is tweaking it for your players strengths and weaknesses.

[KSU4ME]

And a safety over a split out TE isn't exactly uncommon, in college or the NFL.  I'm not sure why you thought it was some radical concept.  If the TE is tight on the line, it's more likely to get a LB in coverage, like Travis Ochs did so well.  When the TE splits out, a safety usually gets the coverage.  You don't see teams double covering the TE every time he's split out.

It wasn't common back then at all.  And part of creating a good scheme is tweaking it for your players strengths and weaknesses.

Whatever.  Splitting out the TE didn't arrive with spread offenses.

Fatty - The OU defense that ranked exactly one spot higher than KSU in Pass Defense in 2000 featured 6 players that were first day draft picks.  Either KSU had more than that, or Stoops/Venables are worse DCs than a monkey.

LMK which one it is.

[Kat Kid]

did I say "All-Big XII first team?"

no.  I used the others to show that NCAA-NFL is irrelevant.  I used better players to show the extent of that irrelevance.

Just so you know:

Shattered school career-records with 154 receptions for 1,445 yards (9.4 avg) and 16 TDs, topping the previous marks of 114 catches by Eddie Hinton (1966-68) and 13 TDs by Keith Jackson (1984-87)...His 1,445 yards rank sixth on the Sooners’ all-time record list...Was a John Mackey Award finalist and All-American selection as a junior...

My point is this:  Bennett's scheme put Cooper in a situation that VERY few other SS would be put in.  OU exploited this further by splitting out Smith on an island to make Coop cover him in space.  That is highly unusual in college, especially 7 years ago.  Not many teams had a TE with as much athleticism/size/hands that they were splitting out like that.

You compared Trent Smith with Sproles, Roberson, LP and Frazier.  That's just plain stupid.

And at the end of the day, no matter how much you want to whine about Bennett's scheme, it was incredibly effective in the CCG.  That's the bottom line.  The weak link wasn't the scheme, it was the player.

And a safety over a split out TE isn't exactly uncommon, in college or the NFL.  I'm not sure why you thought it was some radical concept.  If the TE is tight on the line, it's more likely to get a LB in coverage, like Travis Ochs did so well.  When the TE splits out, a safety usually gets the coverage.  You don't see teams double covering the TE every time he's split out.

Think about what you're saying for just one second.  If you think a second DB is needed for deep coverage every time the TE is split out, then you're saying that you would never provide help on a WR in that situation.  Or you would call a timeout and put in a nickel/dime package every time a coach split out his TE.

This is why you're not a coach.

You should stick to highlighting the similarities between Tommie Frazier and Trent Smith.

Do you even read posts?  I didn't "compare" Tommie Frazier and Trent Smith.  I completely obliterated your non-sequitor about Trent Smith's appearance and NFL career as an argument against his ability in college.  I gave you examples of players that were unquestionably BETTER than Smith from the Big XII around the same time period who flopped in the NFL.  Did that change their abilities in college?  No.  Hope me explaining everything reeeeaaaaal sloooooowwww helps you out bra.

I wonder if you understand the different between a safety playing centerfield and man coverage throughout?  For a Pop Warner coach who questions my coaching ability (I'm super deadly at Tecmo Super Bowl) you seem a little confused. 

I'm not saying that SS vs. TE isn't usually a good matchup.  I'm saying that Bennett were putting a SS on an island/in space and Stoops/Mangingo were killing the matchup and Bennett left Coop out there.  I said earlier it wasn't necessarily a bad strat, but someone had to take on that poopy assignment for us to send as many rushers as we did.  It was Coop.  You were the one saying Coop sucked all I'm saying is it is more complicated than that and I actually watched the game, in person.  Maybe you need a refresher course.  Maybe you can enlighten us all as to which teams were consistently putting 6'5" 240+ All-Big 12/AA "second/third team" talented receivers and getting no safety help over the top.  It was always going to result in some big plays.  Bennett didn't care.  That was the point.

Go back and re-read my anecdote about Bennett re: Tennessee Cotton Bowl.  The man had a blitzing problem.

[michigancat]

Whatever.  Splitting out the TE didn't arrive with spread offenses.

Doesn't mean it was common.  Who did KSU play in 99 or 00, other than OU, that regularly split out TE's?  I honestly don't recall seeing it.

[fatty fat fat]

Fatty - The OU defense that ranked exactly one spot higher than KSU in Pass Defense in 2000 featured 6 players that were first day draft picks.  Either KSU had more than that, or Stoops/Venables are worse DCs than a monkey.

That OU defense held the #6 scoring offense to 24 points on the road, and 17 points in a semi-road site. It also held the #3 offense to zero points. They also held the #8 scoring offense to 14 points. Two of those four games were for championships.


I'm not really bitching about bennett, but he got clowned in the manhattan game, and the next year in norman.

[KSU4ME]

Do you even read posts?  I didn't "compare" Tommie Frazier and Trent Smith.  I completely obliterated your non-sequitor about Trent Smith's appearance and NFL career as an argument against his ability in college.  I gave you examples of players that were unquestionably BETTER than Smith from the Big XII around the same time period who flopped in the NFL.  Did that change their abilities in college?  No.  Hope me explaining everything reeeeaaaaal sloooooowwww helps you out bra.

I wonder if you understand the different between a safety playing centerfield and man coverage throughout?  For a Pop Warner coach who questions my coaching ability (I'm super deadly at Tecmo Super Bowl) you seem a little confused. 

I'm not saying that SS vs. TE isn't usually a good matchup.  I'm saying that Bennett were putting a SS on an island/in space and Stoops/Mangingo were killing the matchup and Bennett left Coop out there.  I said earlier it wasn't necessarily a bad strat, but someone had to take on that poopy assignment for us to send as many rushers as we did.  It was Coop.  You were the one saying Coop sucked all I'm saying is it is more complicated than that and I actually watched the game, in person.  Maybe you need a refresher course.  Maybe you can enlighten us all as to which teams were consistently putting 6'5" 240+ All-Big 12/AA "second/third team" talented receivers and getting no safety help over the top.  It was always going to result in some big plays.  Bennett didn't care.  That was the point.

Go back and re-read my anecdote about Bennett re: Tennessee Cotton Bowl.  The man had a blitzing problem.

If Smith were a hyper athletic super TE like some folks on here think he was, NFL teams would have clamored for him.  NFL teams don't line up for option QBs, especially those with blood clots.  And lets be honest, even Sproles 1 year in the NFL blows Smith's career out of the water.  And teams did line up for LP, even after all his problems.

The NFL didn't give Smith a sniff because there wasn't anything special about him.

I was at the game, and as such, I know that McGraw wasn't locked into man coverage all night.  He was more concerned with the receivers, as he should have been. 

I don't know what game, or sport, you watch that makes you believe that a split out TE is some revolutionary device that has never been handled by a competent strong safety.

[KSU4ME]

Fatty - The OU defense that ranked exactly one spot higher than KSU in Pass Defense in 2000 featured 6 players that were first day draft picks.  Either KSU had more than that, or Stoops/Venables are worse DCs than a monkey.

That OU defense held the #6 scoring offense to 24 points on the road, and 17 points in a semi-road site. It also held the #3 offense to zero points. They also held the #8 scoring offense to 14 points. Two of those four games were for championships.

So, was OU way more talented on defense than KSU or not? 

If a monkey could coach KSU's 7 draft picks, with no #1s and the majority on the second day to 10th in Pass Defense, surely a monkey could coach 6 first day picks, including first rounder Roy Williams to 9th place.

I noticed you really didn't want to answer the question.

[fatty fat fat]

30 ppg (ksu vs top 10 teams) vs 13.8 ppg (ou vs top 10 teams)

top 10 teams:
KSU: 27,41 vs OU, 21 vs NU
OU: 17, 24 vs KSU, 0 vs FSU, 14 vs UT, 14 vs NU

[KSU4ME]

Whatever.  Splitting out the TE didn't arrive with spread offenses.

Doesn't mean it was common.  Who did KSU play in 99 or 00, other than OU, that regularly split out TE's?  I honestly don't recall seeing it.

Don't know about who KSU played that might have used it, but I first noticed TEs flexing out with Air Coryell and Winslow in San Diego.  I think most our defenders were in diapers when this became famous.  So it would be really hard to consider it new.

Of course I could be wrong, and it could go back even further than that.

Fatty - You still can't answer the question, can you?  We're talking pass defense, if you want to tap out, by all means keep trying to change the subject.

[KSU4ME]

By the way, I know have Fatty arguing how bad our defense was in Snyder's best years.

[fatty fat fat]

30 - 14 = 16 = tremendous difference.

[Pett]

30 ppg (ksu vs top 10 teams) vs 13.8 ppg (ou vs top 10 teams)

top 10 teams:
KSU: 27,41 vs OU, 21 vs NU
OU: 17, 24 vs KSU, 0 vs FSU, 14 vs UT, 14 vs NU

top 10 teams:
KSU: 27,41 vs OU, 28 vs. NU
OU: 20, 31 vs. KSU, 0 vs. FSU, 14 vs. UT, 14 vs NU

Didn't know you weren't using final score no matter how scored...

[KSU4ME]

And you still can't answer the simple question.  Or talk about pass defense for that matter.