Perhaps I've been wrong about Jeff Martin....

[Fausto]

"According to Butler, the logic in the past was why take a chance on a second-tier prospect from Kansas when a passed-over, fourth-tier kid from Texas was available? Send the Kansan to a junior college --"the farm system," Butler said -- and take the Texan, if for no other reason than perception.

Butler -- and both Browns -- take exception with such logic, which was prevalent under Bill Snyder but still exists now with Ron Prince."

I'm not a jouralist, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.  However, I have to believe if I was in Jeffrey Martin's place when that statement is made I would ask for some examples.  Examples other than Frank Delarue, which really isn't even an example itself (as it doesn't match the parameters laid out).  Was that question asked, and what was the response?  I essentially asked this question before in a previous thread and it was not answered.  If this was so prevalent under Snyder and Prince there should be numerous examples.  If the question was asked, why isn't there something in the article about that answer?

From Las Vegas I'll call this article what it appears to be...a kiss-up piece to Butler, and illegitimate hit piece on K-State football. 

[michigancat]

This @#%$ was like two weeks ago. Why are we still bitching about it? I'm sure Jeff didn't want to piss off Brian Butler and ruin any kind of connection that he might have in the future with him. I don't see a problem in Jeff just writing what Butler said. It's not like he agreed with him (much). Let's just give this @#%$ a rest.

People are just upset at the way Prince is f'ing up a possible golden situation with Butler and using Martin as a way to vent.

[waks]

This @#%$ was like two weeks ago. Why are we still bitching about it? I'm sure Jeff didn't want to piss off Brian Butler and ruin any kind of connection that he might have in the future with him. I don't see a problem in Jeff just writing what Butler said. It's not like he agreed with him (much). Let's just give this @#%$ a rest.

People are just upset at the way Prince is f'ing up a possible golden situation with Butler and using Martin as a way to vent.

Prince has an email address...

[Fausto]

"People are just upset at the way Prince is f'ing up a possible golden situation with Butler and using Martin as a way to vent."

Looks to me more like Martin is acting more like Butler's Minister of Propaganda!  You are spinning this a bit yourself Rusty.  Can you provide me with this list of players who Butler is speaking of?

[waks]

"People are just upset at the way Prince is f'ing up a possible golden situation with Butler and using Martin as a way to vent."

Looks to me more like Martin is acting more like Butler's Minister of Propaganda!  You are spinning this a bit yourself Rusty.  Can you provide me with this list of players who Butler is speaking of?

It doesn't matter if Butler is jaded or not. That's not the point you were making. You were bagging on J-Mart for the article when it wasn't J-Mart's job to contradict him. He has said numerous times on here and on his Q&A that Butler is off base so why is it such a big deal that the article didn't include that?

[leawoodcat]

"People are just upset at the way Prince is f'ing up a possible golden situation with Butler and using Martin as a way to vent."

Looks to me more like Martin is acting more like Butler's Minister of Propaganda!  You are spinning this a bit yourself Rusty.  Can you provide me with this list of players who Butler is speaking of?

It doesn't matter if Butler is jaded or not. That's not the point you were making. You were bagging on J-Mart for the article when it wasn't J-Mart's job to contradict him. He has said numerous times on here and on his Q&A that Butler is off base so why is it such a big deal that the article didn't include that?

The problem is that Martin not only didn't contradict Butler with some facts, he agreed with Butler.  J Mart blew this article with this line:

He admits to having an issue with K-State, but it's a legitimate beef.

With this line Martin expressed his OWN opinion and indicated that Butler had a legitimate beef. So, how exactly can he make an excuse that Butler was so obviously wrong that there as not point in contracting him??

It may have just been an honest mistake, but this was slanted journalism.

[Fausto]

"It was a legitimate beef during the later Snyder years. "

Since that is the claim you want to make please provide examples. 

"You were bagging on J-Mart for the article when it wasn't J-Mart's job to contradict him."

  

[michigancat]

"People are just upset at the way Prince is f'ing up a possible golden situation with Butler and using Martin as a way to vent."

Looks to me more like Martin is acting more like Butler's Minister of Propaganda!  You are spinning this a bit yourself Rusty.  Can you provide me with this list of players who Butler is speaking of?

I know Butler is jaded and has an agenda or whatever, and I think Martin should have asked a few more questions, but I don't think that's the issue here - the issue is that Prince hasn't already addressed this issue sufficiently in Butler's eyes. 

If he had, KSU fans wouldn't be demanding that Jeffrey Martin "set Butler straight".  It shouldn't have come to this.

[Fausto]

So, for the record Rusty.  YOU CAN NOT PROVIDE A LIST?

Thanks.

This is about crappy journalism, not if Prince should kiss Butler's ass.

[Levi Wolters]

This thread is unbelievable.

[michigancat]

So, for the record Rusty.  YOU CAN NOT PROVIDE A LIST?

Thanks.

This is about crappy journalism, not if Prince should kiss Butler's ass.

I know Butler is jaded and has an agenda or whatever, and I think Martin should have asked a few more questions

In other words, no list.  Still, Prince refusing to kiss Butler's ass is a lot more important than the quality of journalism from one of the five or six KSU beat writers.  Have you had a problem with crappy journalism from any KSU beat writer this year before this notebook?

[mjrod]

This thread is unbelievable.

I concur.

[chum1]

KSU football is always the victim.  It sucks to be us.

[Fausto]

Tell me why guys like Ian Campbell, Jordy Nelson, and Marcus Watts (arguably some of the best players on our team) were walk-ons.""

This is as close of a list as I guess I will get, and it's not from either Butler or Martin.  Therefore, I feel the need to answer.  Will Martin or Butler provide a list?

The answer, ultimately, is simple and only two words.  Bad evaluations.  Some of that is due to playing against lower level competition (3A in Kansas).  Bad evals happen all the time. However, let's look at this from the Brian Butler, Jeffrey Martin *evil K-State conspiracy angle* for the moment. 

Number 1...Watts was not a walk-on.  Damn, so he doesn't count towards proving the *evil conspiracy*.  Butler and Martin are immediate disappointed.  This does not prove the *legitimate beef* to me.   

Number 2...Ian Campbell.  This could be legitimate.  If you consider Vlad Faustin the "4th tier Texas RB".  He was the only prep DE in to get a scholarship in the 2004 class, and hasn't really done that much within the program.

Number 3...Jordy Nelson.  2003 class, and came in as a DB/S.  Let's just call him an athlete.  Who was with him in that class as a recruited scholarship player?  Bryan Baldwin, Byron Garvin, Greg Gaskins, Jermaine Moreira.  All hardly fit into the profile Butler wants to put out there.  All have had a significant impact in the program (starting) except Gaskins.  Ohh, and he's from Kansas!  Blows that *legitimate beef* out of the water if you ask me.  I am, though, still waiting for Martin and Butler to provide their list.

It should be noted NONE of the players you mention were placed on the "farm system" as Butler puts it.  So, this really doesn't fit the *evil plan* he and Martin want to accuse the K-State football offices of at all.

"On another note, what should Jeff have done differently in his interview of Mr. Butler? What would you have done?"

Already answered.  Read previous posts in this thread.  Why question something when that is what you believe though.  So, that said, list examples.

Sorry for calling out what has turned out to be a god on this board, in Mr. Martin.  I am more then willing to accept whatever punishment is necessary mjrod.

[waks]

Funny that you don't include other "athletes"/WR from the 2003 class that are in fact from Texas and haven't done a thing at K-State. But yes, being selective helps your arguments.

Honestly, nobody cares that you are calling out Jeffrey Martin. It's just that you are blowing something small completely out of proportion.  You're taking one line out of the entire article and throwing a fit over it. It's just retarded. We all have agreed that Butler is an idiot. Nobody is arguing with you there.

You haven't said once in your previous posts what J-Mart should have done differently in his interview. J-Mart provided a way for Butler to talk. Journalists do this. They include the quotes of the people that they interview in their articles. Should he have just not wrote what Butler's beef was in his article? Is that what you would have done differently?

[Fausto]

"Funny that you don't include other "athletes"/WR from the 2003 class that are in fact from Texas and haven't done a thing at K-State."

The only other WR I know is Toney Coleman...who has been repeatedly injured.  Once again, NOTE that Nelson was a DB/S coming into this program...not a WR.  But lets include him, for sake of argument (something I won't get from Butler or Martin, so I have to settle from it from you).   So that's 2 players in what, 4 classes?  Once again, none of the players you mention match up with Butler's "JUCO first" plan, so they really are not on the Butler-Martin list (should one exist) are they?  I notice you don't mention you needing to correct your misinformation on Watts.  Why is that?  You know, since you want to call me out for calling out your bud "J-Mart".  I assume that is Jeffrey Martin, journalist for the Wichita Eagle.  Key term "journalist", not propaganda minister for Brian Butler.

Honestly, nobody cares that you are calling out Jeffrey Martin.

Noboby?  So you are nobody then?  Because, obviously you care.  Care really deeply.  Otherwise you wouldn't reply to defend "J-Mart" and take the efforts you have to do so, multiple times.

"You haven't said once in your previous posts what J-Mart should have done differently in his interview."

How about this, from an earlier post in this thread...
"However, I have to believe if I was in Jeffrey Martin's place when that statement is made I would ask for some examples.  Examples other than Frank Delarue, which really isn't even an example itself (as it doesn't match the parameters laid out)."  It appears he didn't do that.  Furthermore, it appears he agreed with Butler on this point in this article."  Martin denied that later, of course. 


J-Mart provided a way for Butler to talk. Journalists do this.

Do journalists not ask questions as well?  If all Butler wanted to do was talk, he could write a letter to the editor.  When Butler tries to make the point on Frank Delrue's recruiting though, don't you believe it is the journalists responsibility to ask who the *4th tier Texas RB* is?  If not, why?  Furthermore, when this is prevalent as mentioned, shouldn't there be included examples.  There are none!

[Poopley]

Okay, I'm trying to follow along.

So the list of tier-2 Kansas players that KSU has "forced" to walk on or play in the "farm system" in favor of tier-4 Texas recruits includes . . .

Frank Delarue / No One
Jordy Nelson / Toney Coleman (who was certainly not tier-4 coming out of high school)
Ian Campbell/ Vlad Faustin (this was a bad call)
(someone should be able to come up with a better list than this -- John McGraw? others? how about Brody Eldridge who went to Oklahoma b/c he mouthed off at the KSU camp and we ended up with Nate "bud" Prater?)

Fausto was unhappy with the JMart article because
1) he thinks JMart should not have endorsed Butler's perspective by calling it "a legitmate beef."
2) Fausto wanted JMart to ask and include in the article some examples from Butler of tier-2 Kansas recruits who have been shafted in favor of tier-4 recruits from Texas.

This seems like reasonable discussion and disagreement to me.

[Poopley]

waks, that seems reasonable as well. fausto is getting in late on the conversation, so it is not old hat to him yet. the same is true to some extent for scuba steve.

the only thing i think you mis-stated in your last post is that the bitching people are focusing on only one line in the article. not true. they dont like 1) the "legitimate beef" thing 2) the anti-kansas player / farm system comment 3) the tier-4 commits from texas 4) the attiribution of hurt feelings to the brown brothers b/c frank didn't get an offer -- does Butler really speak for the brown brothers, would it have been that hard for JMart to ask the Brown brothers themselves if they were "hurt" ? 5) why does this all come down on Prince while Mangino and the ku staff goes scott free? 6) the whole piece coming off as a big endorsement of Butler and a nutkick to Prince with zero attempt to give a different side or ask other obvious questions.

Those are just some of the things I've seen discussed since the article came out, so it was hardly just one line. But you are right, this is getting old for some of those who have been following all these threads all along. I do think there is a hardcore group of fans on this site hanging from JMart's nuts. In my opinion, he needs to be held to the same scrutiny and ridicule as Prince and Weiser and anyone else -- that's what this board is all about and makes it so refreshing when compared to others.

[michigancat]

In my opinion, he needs to be held to the same scrutiny and ridicule as Prince and Weiser and anyone else

That's a dumb opinion, at least on the scrutiny part.  I'm with you on the ridicule.

Has anyone figured out why Butler has "beef" with Prince yet?

[Fausto]

"the whole piece coming off as a big endorsement of Butler and a nutkick to Prince with zero attempt to give a different side or ask other obvious questions."

Thanks for summing the whole thing up Poopley.  The lack of actual journalism here is what kills me!  That, and the fact there are so many people willing to defend it.

I've been an intent recruiting watcher for years, and always pretty much thought K-State locked up too much of the tier 2 Kansas talent where they could have gotten better elsewhere.  In the end they've had such a significant influence from the walk-ons within the state it ultimately did not hurt them.   

[Levi Wolters]

Just making sure you all saw this. I'm guessing "no", since most of you continually refer to it as an "article". And, yes, there is a difference between the two.

2. It was a NOTEBOOK. Brian Butler started talking and I quoted him. A hatchet job? Slow down. It was his opinion, nothing more and nothing less. Sure, I provided a forum for him. Why not? He's the gatekeeper to two of the most sought after kids in the country. Who wouldn't have run what he said?

....and also this...

Oh, I'm being honest. The legitimate part should have been preceded by "but he insists" it's a legitimate beef. My bad. I thought it was implied that was his meaning. But I take full responsibility for it not sounding that way.

Other than that, Jeff does have an e-mail address, if you can't live without more answers. I'm guessing he's done discussing it here.

But by all means, carry on. It's entertaining.

[Poopley]

Levi, thanks for the permission to continue discussing on this discussion board. Don't know what we'd do without your encouragement except possibly continue on exactly as we have been doing. 

[fatty fat fat]

Levi Wolters, I think I should have your job.

[Levi Wolters]

Please. Take it.

[ScubaSteve]

Just making sure you all saw this. I'm guessing "no", since most of you continually refer to it as an "article". And, yes, there is a difference between the two.

2. It was a NOTEBOOK. Brian Butler started talking and I quoted him. A hatchet job? Slow down. It was his opinion, nothing more and nothing less. Sure, I provided a forum for him. Why not? He's the gatekeeper to two of the most sought after kids in the country. Who wouldn't have run what he said?

....and also this...

Oh, I'm being honest. The legitimate part should have been preceded by "but he insists" it's a legitimate beef. My bad. I thought it was implied that was his meaning. But I take full responsibility for it not sounding that way.

Other than that, Jeff does have an e-mail address, if you can't live without more answers. I'm guessing he's done discussing it here.

But by all means, carry on. It's entertaining.

I still haven't heard what good points Brian Butler made.  Maybe you can answer, Levi.

[Levi Wolters]

I don't know, Scuba. I guess I'm reading what you read differently.

Read my notebook tomorrow. You'll understand a little better where Brian is coming from. Trust, he's a good dude. He makes a lot of good points. I can understand why you guys are bothered, but Hatter is right.

I assumed those to be two general statements, not necessarily relating to the notebook. In other words, after reading, you will get a better understanding of where Brian was coming from. And though you might not agree, he's a good dude, and he does make a lot of good points in general, though these might not necessarily reflect that.

Like I said, I don't know. I just read it differently than you did.

[Poopley]

I don't know, Scuba. ... Like I said, I don't know.

And there you have it.

[ScubaSteve]

I don't know, Scuba. I guess I'm reading what you read differently.

Read my notebook tomorrow. You'll understand a little better where Brian is coming from. Trust, he's a good dude. He makes a lot of good points. I can understand why you guys are bothered, but Hatter is right.

I assumed those to be two general statements, not necessarily relating to the notebook. In other words, after reading, you will get a better understanding of where Brian was coming from. And though you might not agree, he's a good dude, and he does make a lot of good points in general, though these might not necessarily reflect that.

Like I said, I don't know. I just read it differently than you did.

Well, I guess you tried.  You really didn't say anything, but you tried.

[chum1]

These points seem obvious to some, but aren't necessarily to a bunch of insecure, whiny, asshole KSU fans.  (Just imagine that he's responding to a panel of the worst powertards.) 

Good point #1:  He does not hate KSU.

Good point #2:  His advice isn't what determines where a player goes - the players choice is.

These points are interesting independent of any powertard drama.

Good point #3:  KSU has taken out of state kids when they could have taken Kansas kids. 

Good point #4:  KSU has used JUCOs as farm teams for many Kansas kids.

[ScubaSteve]

Good grief. 

#1:  Perception is reality.  Unless Jeff Martin misquoted Butler in this article, he's gone and done everyone who cares about KSU a friggin' service.  It doesn't matter whether you and I and every other message board dork in the country think that KSU, under Snyder and/or Prince, fairly treated in-state prospects.  What matters is what those close to the talent think.  And...again, unless J-Mart misquoted Butler, at least one guy close to the talent has a beef with K-State.  It may be legit (more on that later), it may not be.  But if Butler has a gripe with KSU, and if Butler has connections with some of the best in-state talent, then we're going to be getting a whole lot more in-state talent of the second-tier variety.  Prince can stand at the front of the room and make cracks about Martin and Butler until he's blue in the face, but he'd best save his breath because he's going to need it to recruit some more fourth-tier kids from Texas if he continues to piss off those who mentor the in-state talent.  There was a constructive way and a non-constructive way to handle this situation, and he chose the latter.

#2:  There's no doubt that "third-tier" talent from Texas and Florida gets the benefit of the doubt over "second-tier" talent from Kansas and Oklahoma.   It happens at KSU, ku, OU, and OSU.  I'm not going to give a list, because recruiting is so freakin' subjective, as the powertards make abundantly clear, and with these kids you're not usually dealing with stars or starters, but they're out there.  It's part of the entire, whacked-out recruiting process, where schools try to cover their rears by stringing along in-staters who they think are loyal enough to the state/program to fill out their classes as a last-minute scholarship, grayshirt, walk-on, or juco placement, after they bring in all the foreign talent they want.   

Well, I guess I do agree with you on one thing, Jeff definitely brought to light the fact that Butler has some KSU issues.  It's nice to know that.

To state that it is Prince's policy to string along in-state players and take 4th tier Texas players instead is utterly ridiculous.  However, there are all kinds of reasons that you may take a lower tier Texas player instead of a Kansas player of the same caliber.  We aren't going to fill our roster entirely with Kansas kids.  We have to develope recruiting relationships outside of the state.  If it means taking a Texas kid for depth and it may give us the opportunity to get a starter quality player in the future, you let the 2nd string player from Sharon Springs walk on.  That's just business.

You're right about another thing, though.  Recruiting is subjective.  Prime example:  Prince thought Woods, Cuba, Bell, and Reed are better than Delarue.  Butler doesn't.

By the way, talking about blowing things out of proportion.  I can't believe that Prince is taking the kind of heat on this board about those comments he made at the Catbacker's event.  And you people say that I'm the one that is just trying to find something to bitch about.  If Martin takes offense to those comments then he has bigger issues than I even think he does.  If Butler takes offense, well then Butler was a hopeless case to begin with and you have to know that Prince knows it.