Date: 21/08/25 - 01:04 AM   48060 Topics and 694399 Posts

Author Topic: Self to Florida story getting legs...  (Read 3982 times)

June 04, 2007, 11:03:36 AM
Reply #90

SaltyWings

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Salty,

Again, the debate is tradition v. "what have you done lately".  ku probably is an elite program HISTORICALLY.  The whole debate here (which you seemed to have missed) is whether it is better to have great tradition or recent success.  I think most of the people here are laughing at ku's claim of being a current elite program.  

In the last seven seasons, ku has won five conference titles, advanced to five Sweet 16's, four Elite 8's, two Final Fours and played once for the National Championship.  When a program makes it to the Elite 8 more often than not, I think it's more than reasonable to refer to that program as elite.

June 04, 2007, 11:11:17 AM
Reply #91

SaltyWings

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The Kitty comment cuts deep.  This isn't Kstatefans/Phog Salty, GMAFB.

Sorry, didn't mean to hurt you.  I was using it as a term of endearment.

June 04, 2007, 11:36:42 AM
Reply #92

pissclams

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The Kitty comment cuts deep.  This isn't Kstatefans/Phog Salty, GMAFB.

Sorry, didn't mean to hurt you.  I was using it as a term of endearment.

K, just watch yourself.  When you get to the "e" in "grape" you'll know you've gone too far.


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New warning: Don't get in a fight with someone who doesn't even need to bother to buy ink.

June 04, 2007, 11:49:43 AM
Reply #93

plaincat killed himself

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Salty,

Again, the debate is tradition v. "what have you done lately".  ku probably is an elite program HISTORICALLY.  The whole debate here (which you seemed to have missed) is whether it is better to have great tradition or recent success.  I think most of the people here are laughing at ku's claim of being a current elite program.   

In the last seven seasons, ku has won five conference titles, advanced to five Sweet 16's, four Elite 8's, two Final Fours and played once for the National Championship.  When a program makes it to the Elite 8 more often than not, I think it's more than reasonable to refer to that program as elite.

How many programs do you consider to be elite?  ku is certainly somewhere behind Florida on the "elite basketball program meter", but if you consider 10 to 20 programs to be "elite" then ku would probably fit in that group.

Here's your top 20 banana:  :dancin:

June 04, 2007, 12:10:49 PM
Reply #94

bigdeal

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What Naismith and Wilt have done is make ku a "historic" program...oh sure, Wilt was paid handsomely, discriminated against, and almost never came back, but still.  ku has a couple of very fortunate things going for them.  Naismith, a well paid Wilt, Larry Brown hiring Danny Mannings dad, another probation, and mostly, that...

Roy Williams graced their campus as coach during the proliferation of ESPN and the rise of college basketball as a media darling.  Larry Brown hired Danny Mannings dad and, with the help of NCAA violations, was able to win a Nat'l Champ before bolting because he knew he couldn't keep it up.  Roy is a great coach but was pure luck as a hire...and like the 5th choice.  Roy kept ku in the top 5-10 for 15 yrs during the rise of media coverage.  Self is a good recruiter and has continued to get play out of that.   

June 04, 2007, 12:27:19 PM
Reply #95

plaincat killed himself

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Does anyone else find it odd that "one of the elite programs in the history of college basketball" has only won one national title in the last 50 years...

And they nicknamed that team "The Miracles?"

Shouldn't there be some expectation that an elite program might occasionally win a title without some kind of divine intervention?
« Last Edit: June 04, 2007, 12:35:01 PM by plaincat killed himself »

June 04, 2007, 12:48:49 PM
Reply #96

sonofchadmay

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Does anyone else find it odd that "one of the elite programs in the history of college basketball" has only won one national title in the last 50 years...

And they nicknamed that team "The Miracles?"

Shouldn't there be some expectation that an elite program might occasionally win a title without some kind of divine intervention?

And they had to hire an illiterate truck driver to pull it off.  Pretty sure Donavon didn't hire any of his player's dad.

June 04, 2007, 01:16:06 PM
Reply #97

plaincat killed himself

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Does anyone else find it odd that "one of the elite programs in the history of college basketball" has only won one national title in the last 50 years...

And they nicknamed that team "The Miracles?"

Shouldn't there be some expectation that an elite program might occasionally win a title without some kind of divine intervention?

And they had to hire an illiterate truck driver to pull it off.  Pretty sure Donavon didn't hire any of his player's dad.

They will rightly point out that it is not against the rules to hire a recruit's dad. 

They will also be correct when they point out Ed's hiring had nothing to do with the fact that they were the first team in the history of college basketball who didn't get a chance to defend their title becuase they broke numerous NCAA rules and were placed on probation for "lack of institutional control."

June 04, 2007, 01:17:34 PM
Reply #98

ECN

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this thread needs to be moved.

 :barf:
We all know there's been a conspiracy. Only the failures have been recorded.
We all pay too much attention to Icarus, and not enough to his father.

June 04, 2007, 01:27:30 PM
Reply #99

Pike

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This is a thread hijacking of biblical proportions. I think I started it too with my "elite" comment. Oops....

Well carry on... :cheers:

June 04, 2007, 01:40:56 PM
Reply #100

plaincat killed himself

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(Dean was on campus this last year)

It is also interesting that they use Dean Smith to support their "tradition," but they can't introduce him by name when he visits Lawrence because their fans would boo him out of the building.

June 04, 2007, 02:12:39 PM
Reply #101

pissclams

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(Dean was on campus this last year)

It is also interesting that they use Dean Smith to support their "tradition," but they can't introduce him by name when he visits Lawrence because their fans would boo him out of the building.

We need to play the Bill Guthridge card way more often.


Cheesy Mustache QB might make an appearance.

New warning: Don't get in a fight with someone who doesn't even need to bother to buy ink.

June 04, 2007, 02:18:10 PM
Reply #102

SaltyWings

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Did a little research on the "recently elite" teams.  From 2001 to the present, I came up with eight teams I would seperate from the rest (in alphabetical order): Duke, Florida, Kansas, Maryland, Michigan State, North Carolina, UCLA and UConn.  Syracuse was left off the list because 2003 (their NC year) was the only year they made it to the Elite 8 and there were multiple years where they didn't make the Tourney.

Out of this group, Florida is clearly #1 and Duke is clearly #2.  After that, it gets tricky.  

Three teams on my list, ku, MSU and UCLA did not win an NC in this time period, but did make it to multiple Final Fours.  The three other teams, Maryland, UNC and UConn all won a NC, but don't have alot on their resume other than that championsip.  All of those teams had at least one year when they didn't make it to the Tourney at all.

Of the six teams vying for positions 3-8, only ku and MSU made the Tournament every year.  None of the teams have more that two Final Fours.  In regards to Elite 8's, ku leads the way with four, MSU has three and everyone else has two.

Looking at the data, one could make a pretty strong case that ku should be #3 on the list.  ku has as many Final Fours as all of the other teams, the most number of Elite 8's and in all seven seasons they've been no lower than a 4 seed in the Tournament.  Being at least a 4 seed every year is even more impressive when you consider that UNC, Maryland and UCLA had multiple seasons of not making the Tourney.  

In any event, ku is at the very least among the top 6 (I think higher, but it's debatable) programs in this decade.  That's elite in my book.

June 04, 2007, 02:19:49 PM
Reply #103

ECN

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In any event, ku is at the very least

i agree.
We all know there's been a conspiracy. Only the failures have been recorded.
We all pay too much attention to Icarus, and not enough to his father.

June 04, 2007, 02:32:08 PM
Reply #104

SaltyWings

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In any event, ku is at the very least

i agree.

OUCH!!!  Pissclams, you were right on about this place being hardcore.

June 04, 2007, 02:34:34 PM
Reply #105

steve dave

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<---------Click the ball

June 04, 2007, 02:34:52 PM
Reply #106

pissclams

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Don't tell me I didn't warn ya.  ECN just treated you like Johnnie Morton.  :'(


Cheesy Mustache QB might make an appearance.

New warning: Don't get in a fight with someone who doesn't even need to bother to buy ink.

June 04, 2007, 04:31:53 PM
Reply #107

plaincat killed himself

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Nice analysis.  However, you are ignoring the fact that ku plays in a football conference while Maryland, UNC, Syracuse and UConn play in basketball conferences.  Of course you are always seeded high - you don't have to play anybody.

Why don't you talk about the actual games that ku has won against high quality opponents instead of claiming to be elite because you took care of the teams that you were supposed to beat? 

Other than Bradley and Bucknell, of course.

I know that Syracuse and Florida beat the piss out of ku and UCLA showed that they were worthless in this year's final four after eliminating the Jayhawks.  That's five extremely unimpressive performances out of seven.  Who were the other two?  And were there any actual quality wins in the last seven years?

June 04, 2007, 04:55:18 PM
Reply #108

SaltyWings

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Nice analysis.  However, you are ignoring the fact that ku plays in a football conference while Maryland, UNC, Syracuse and UConn play in basketball conferences.  Of course you are always seeded high - you don't have to play anybody.

Yes, because the Tournament Committee gives no weight to strength of schedule.  Low BBIQ.

Quote
I know that Syracuse and Florida beat the piss out of ku and UCLA showed that they were worthless in this year's final four after eliminating the Jayhawks.  That's five extremely unimpressive performances out of seven.  Who were the other two?  And were there any actual quality wins in the last seven years?

Still trying to decipher what you're intending to say here, but I'll give it a shot.  Are you saying that ku was extremely unimpressive in the Tournament five of the last seven years?  If so, I disagree.  2005 and 2006 were certainly disappointing, but ku reached the Sweet 16 in all of the other years and the Elite 8 in four of them. 

As far as quality wins:
5 Seed Syracuse in 2001
4 Seed Illinois and 2 seed Oregon in 2002
3 Seed Duke, 1 seed Arizona and 3 seed Marquette in 2003
8 Seed UAB (just knocked off 1 seed Kentucky) in 2004
4 Seed SIU in 2007

That's eight if I've counted right.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2007, 04:58:21 PM by SaltyWings »

June 04, 2007, 05:45:46 PM
Reply #109

kstate16

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i think our comments bothered SaltyBalls a little bit..... :peek:

June 04, 2007, 06:09:00 PM
Reply #110

waks

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Nice analysis.  However, you are ignoring the fact that ku plays in a football conference while Maryland, UNC, Syracuse and UConn play in basketball conferences.  Of course you are always seeded high - you don't have to play anybody.

Yes, because the Tournament Committee gives no weight to strength of schedule.  Low BBIQ.

LOL.

June 04, 2007, 07:55:49 PM
Reply #111

roohawk

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(Dean was on campus this last year)

It is also interesting that they use Dean Smith to support their "tradition," but they can't introduce him by name when he visits Lawrence because their fans would boo him out of the building.

Dean is part of the ku tradition.  History is what it is.  If he chooses to more closely associate himself with the North Carolina than ku, his choice is entirely understandable.  If some ku fans choose to criticize his choice, this action is also understandable.  Different strokes...

 

   

June 04, 2007, 08:07:27 PM
Reply #112

ksutwisted

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Yep, seeding in the tournament is always awarded based on the season performance and never based on name recognition.  See Duke.

Side note:  I couldn't care less about this debate.

June 04, 2007, 08:39:45 PM
Reply #113

WilliamTheWildcat

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Re: Self to Florida story getting legs...


If it HAD legs, those legs are now amputated.  Donovan back to UF.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/basketball/ncaa/06/03/florida.grant.ap/index.html

June 04, 2007, 08:40:32 PM
Reply #114

catdude33

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Hey SaltyWings, I hope you shred your ACL.  No offense.

June 04, 2007, 08:43:18 PM
Reply #115

ECN

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We all know there's been a conspiracy. Only the failures have been recorded.
We all pay too much attention to Icarus, and not enough to his father.

June 04, 2007, 09:13:22 PM
Reply #116

FUKU

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If the whole tradition thing is getting this out of control, add Gene Keady to K-State's basketball tradition.    :peek:

June 04, 2007, 09:17:16 PM
Reply #117

roohawk

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END THIS THREAD!!!!
\

He repeats: End this thread...
Lest KSU fans come to grips with their ... basketball legacy. 

Good thinking, Chupa.

June 04, 2007, 09:38:27 PM
Reply #118

fatty fat fat

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OMG! ku elite? I think I heard THE WHOLE WORLD LOL'ING AT ONCE!
It is a tragedy because now, we have at least an extra month without Cat football until next year. I hate wasting my life away but I can hardly wait until next year.

June 04, 2007, 09:39:20 PM
Reply #119

roohawk

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Re: Self to Florida story getting legs...


If it HAD legs, those legs are now amputated.  Donovan back to UF.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/basketball/ncaa/06/03/florida.grant.ap/index.html

Yes, William, the desire of many of the KSU faithful, who surreptitiously support the university's hirings (of Martin et al) to see ku faithful reduced to sniveling snotbags to retain a coach will once again be disappointed.  We bitched at and about Roy, but our University did not embarass itself over a coach with a one-year residency, whose resume is as &@#%in' tarnished as they come.