KSUFans Archives
Sports => Snyder's Electronic Cyber Space World => Topic started by: opcat on October 08, 2007, 03:33:33 PM
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Why don't we do this more?
Lack of protection?
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Franklin is dumb. He doesn't believe in throwing downfield.
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Why don't we do this more?
Lack of protection?
Should we hire Petro as OC? :rolleyes:
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1. Lack of protection
2. Freeman can't consistently throw the ball with accuracy
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Freeman can't consistently throw the ball with accuracy
Thats not good. :eek: :flush:
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1. Lack of protection
2. Freeman can't consistently throw the ball with accuracy
3. Lack of running game encourages Safeties to stay deep
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yes
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Petro = master of the obvious, that douche sucks ass.
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Obviously Franklin is a package deal with the Browns.
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If we don't get one of the Browns, I say we fire him.
:curse:
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If we don't get one of the Browns, I say we fire him.
:curse:
It sounds like the Browns, especially Bryce, likes Prince a lot, seems like that's pretty much common knowledge now. Maybe Franklin is a non-factor and we can fire him anyways.
I mean, they were going nuts for us vs. Auburn!!! :dancin:
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1. Lack of protection
2. Freeman can't consistently throw the ball with accuracy
QFT. For me, it's almost a muscle memory thing...he throws balls 15yds and in with fairly decent accuracy because that's the only thing we throw...although I will say his fade route to Jordy was perfect and he threw 2 good balls to Deon against MoSt that Deon dropped. But beyond that, I'd have to guess in 5 games we've maybe thrown the ball 15+ yards less than 10 times.
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Remember when we averaged 18 yards per completion and led the nation in passing efficiency (or close to it)?
:crybaby:
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Remember when we averaged 18 yards per completion and led the nation in passing efficiency (or close to it)?
:crybaby:
rip my heart out why don't you... :crybaby:
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Because if it is incomplete we don't have a running attack that can make up those lost yards from a "wasted" down.
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Because if it is incomplete we don't have a running attack that can make up those lost yards from a "wasted" down.
True, but on second and 3 or less play action and a deep ball would be nice to see. I don't by the notion that JF can't make the throw. I know his high school coach and they couldn't get him to throw the short stuff. I am told he threw 31 td's his senior year.
I distinctly remember Prince making the case for starting him by saying he could exploit the entire field with his arm. That being said, last year he was lights out against CU. Big 12 POW. Here's to seeing that again! :cheers:
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1. Lack of protection
2. Freeman can't consistently throw the ball with accuracy
QFT. For me, it's almost a muscle memory thing...he throws balls 15yds and in with fairly decent accuracy because that's the only thing we throw...although I will say his fade route to Jordy was perfect and he threw 2 good balls to Deon against MoSt that Deon dropped. But beyond that, I'd have to guess in 5 games we've maybe thrown the ball 15+ yards less than 10 times.
He throws the ball 30 plus yards all the time on out routes from one hash clear to the other sideline. The ball is traveling a long ways but the problem is we're only gaining 7 or 8 yards on a lot of these plays.
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1. Lack of protection
2. Freeman can't consistently throw the ball with accuracy
Ah, but you are forgetting that Freeman is tall, and well built.
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1. Lack of protection
2. Freeman can't consistently throw the ball with accuracy
Ah, but you are forgetting that Freeman is tall, and well built.
Adonis of the Gridiorn >>> Todd Reesing puss. :jerkoff:
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I don't care if Josh does not throw the deep ball that well, we still should have tried it more. It did not have to be a pass where he hucked in 55 yds downfield either.
Jordy was one on one several times with ku's other corner, and the safety was not in a position where he could have helped.... so we could have run the exact same route that he toasted talib on.
I have also seen Josh throw the post-corner route pretty well in the past..... so that is another route that is 15-20 yds downfield that Jordy or Murph could have run (especially on the opposite side of Talib)
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1. Lack of protection
2. Freeman can't consistently throw the ball with accuracy
QFT. For me, it's almost a muscle memory thing...he throws balls 15yds and in with fairly decent accuracy because that's the only thing we throw...although I will say his fade route to Jordy was perfect and he threw 2 good balls to Deon against MoSt that Deon dropped. But beyond that, I'd have to guess in 5 games we've maybe thrown the ball 15+ yards less than 10 times.
He throws the ball 30 plus yards all the time on out routes from one hash clear to the other sideline. The ball is traveling a long ways but the problem is we're only gaining 7 or 8 yards on a lot of these plays.
Doesn't seem efficient and a lot can go wrong during those 30 yards.
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i think we dont throw deep because jordy is the only good receiver on the team. murphy has shown he cant catch the deep ball and gonzo is too slow. lamark cant catch and why isnt pierce playing more?
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i think we dont throw deep because jordy is the only good receiver on the team. murphy has shown he cant catch the deep ball and gonzo is too slow. lamark cant catch and why isnt pierce playing more?
I think we should throw the ball to Gonzo when he's in triple coverage, cause it seems like he can only make insane catches.
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i think we dont throw deep because jordy is the only good receiver on the team. murphy has shown he cant catch the deep ball and gonzo is too slow. lamark cant catch and why isnt pierce playing more?
I think we should throw the ball to Gonzo when he's in triple coverage, cause it seems like he can only make insane catches.
he also does pretty well when ku is in prevent.
do you know why pierce isnt playing?
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i think we dont throw deep because jordy is the only good receiver on the team. murphy has shown he cant catch the deep ball and gonzo is too slow. lamark cant catch and why isnt pierce playing more?
I think we should throw the ball to Gonzo when he's in triple coverage, cause it seems like he can only make insane catches.
he also does pretty well when ku is in prevent.
do you know why pierce isnt playing?
Been wondering about Pierce as well. A couple weeks ago he was suppose to start seeing more time, then nothing. Guess is he is just not putting it together yet.
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ku manned us up one time, Freeman read it and threw it over the top to Nelson. It was a deep score.
After that ku played 2 deep safties and dared us to run the ball. We couldn't do it enough to get ku into man or 8 in the box where we can exploit them with the play action pass or vertical game and were forced to throw underneath and drive the field. If we are ever going to get vertical in our passing game we have to be able to run the ball.
Seriously, the lack of understand this gets old. Very few coaches are going to throw deep routes when you get cover 2 over the top. That is how everyone plays us now, they are going to see if we can run the ball against 7 in the box and throw underneath to beat them. Without being set up by defense and special teams we are proving that for this team that is difficult.
And you don't open up the run by throwing deep against 2 deep coverage. That will only get you picks most of the time unless you have an exceptional WR that will just go make a play, and I'm not sure Jordy is that guy on a fade.
That said, the holes in cover 2 are behind the corners and in front of the safeties, in between the corners and LBs, and behind the corners and in front of the safties. My disappointment is that we aren't finding ways to exploit the holes behind the corner and in front of the safeties or behind the LBs enough. We got a few in the middle of the field, but not enough, and right now that is where our play action pass should be open. This is where you can throw a corner route, especially if you can get the safties to overcommit to one side of the field, but that is a tough route and throw. We've got it a few times, but not enough. We are mainly attacking that area in between the corners and backers, basically between the numbers and hashes, but its not enough when we can't run the ball. Plus, we don't have enough depth/experience at WR to exploit all of those zones. WRs have to have a feel agaisnt zones and be able to find an opening and so far Nelson, Murphy, Mastrud, and Gonzo a bit are the only guys that we have doing that.
Its still college football and the run has to set up the pass 95% of the time. Until we can establish more of a running game, vertical routes and play action will be hard to come by.
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Its still college football and the run has to set up the pass 95% of the time. Until we can establish more of a running game, vertical routes and play action will be hard to come by.
I don't quite agree with this, but do you need to run effectively. Just a couple successful draws would probably do it for KSU's offense. (It's debatable whether or not this is considered "establishing the run".) I noticed at least one draw out of the shotgun in the second half that would have gone for big yardage if Johnson had tried to cut upfield instead of get to the corner. I don't remember us running much out of the shotgun, but I'd guess a couple successful draws would have made a huge difference.
Interesting, semi-related article:
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/2003/07/14/ramblings/stat-analysis/3/
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Rusty, you are right, its not 100% true that you must establish the run. But if not, you better have 3 or 4 legit recieving threats and be able to spread the field more. Right now I'd say we have maybe 2 legit recieving threats. Until we can run or a legit, consistent 3rd (or 4th) recieving threat steps up, this will continue to be an issue.
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Hmm, I know you're a football coach and I'm not, but I think the receiving threats are adequate enough that a few draws a game of 7 yards or more is enough to move the ball. That's the difference between the first half and the second half Saturday - we didn't run much, but we ran enough to move the ball (penalties killed us more than an inability to move the ball).
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Hmm, I know you're a football coach and I'm not, but I think the receiving threats are adequate enough that a few draws a game of 7 yards or more is enough to move the ball. That's the difference between the first half and the second half Saturday - we didn't run much, but we ran enough to move the ball (penalties killed us more than an inability to move the ball).
Don't disagree with that. I'm just saying if you have more legit recieving threats, it puts more pressure on the defense and can open up your running game or the passing game as well.
As far as tendancies go, we really didn't change much from 1st to 2nd half. Nearly every drive in the first half we threw on first down too. Then we tried to come back to the run on 2nd or 3rd or later in the drive. We just couldn't get it done in the 2nd like we did in the first. Its an excuse, but I think the loss of Bedore contributed significantly to that.
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As far as tendancies go, we really didn't change much from 1st to 2nd half. Nearly every drive in the first half we threw on first down too. Then we tried to come back to the run on 2nd or 3rd or later in the drive. We just couldn't get it done in the 2nd like we did in the first. Its an excuse, but I think the loss of Bedore contributed significantly to that.
I agree. We had one run from a RB of more than 4 yards, 6 under in the second half. The first half had runs of 7, 9, 14, 10, and 6.
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Hmm, I know you're a football coach and I'm not, but I think the receiving threats are adequate enough that a few draws a game of 7 yards or more is enough to move the ball. That's the difference between the first half and the second half Saturday - we didn't run much, but we ran enough to move the ball (penalties killed us more than an inability to move the ball).
Don't disagree with that. I'm just saying if you have more legit recieving threats, it puts more pressure on the defense and can open up your running game or the passing game as well.
As far as tendancies go, we really didn't change much from 1st to 2nd half. Nearly every drive in the first half we threw on first down too. Then we tried to come back to the run on 2nd or 3rd or later in the drive. We just couldn't get it done in the 2nd like we did in the first. Its an excuse, but I think the loss of Bedore contributed significantly to that.
One thing I noticed in the second half was that nearly every time Freeman was under center, instead of shutgun, it was a running play -- completely giving away what kind of play was coming just by the formation.
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Hmm, I know you're a football coach and I'm not, but I think the receiving threats are adequate enough that a few draws a game of 7 yards or more is enough to move the ball. That's the difference between the first half and the second half Saturday - we didn't run much, but we ran enough to move the ball (penalties killed us more than an inability to move the ball).
Don't disagree with that. I'm just saying if you have more legit recieving threats, it puts more pressure on the defense and can open up your running game or the passing game as well.
As far as tendancies go, we really didn't change much from 1st to 2nd half. Nearly every drive in the first half we threw on first down too. Then we tried to come back to the run on 2nd or 3rd or later in the drive. We just couldn't get it done in the 2nd like we did in the first. Its an excuse, but I think the loss of Bedore contributed significantly to that.
One thing I noticed in the second half was that nearly every time Freeman was under center, instead of shutgun, it was a running play -- completely giving away what kind of play was coming just by the formation.
Again, we had a new center. That probably contributed to that tendancy.
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I guess I just haven't figured out where this offense puts pressure on the defense. We can't/won't commit to running the ball, so we do the "run through short passing attack", which only complicates the running game because it moves defenders a bit closer to the LOS, but we don't make them pay for doing so because we can only send 2 receivers into a route against 2 deep because we can't protect.
And I understand why our offense is the way it is because Ron wants to have a defense and special teams unit that makes plays so our offense doesn't have to be the driving force, but at some point we're going to have to take some chances on offense.
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I guess I just haven't figured out where this offense puts pressure on the defense. We can't/won't commit to running the ball, so we do the "run through short passing attack", which only complicates the running game because it moves defenders a bit closer to the LOS, but we don't make them pay for doing so because we can only send 2 receivers into a route against 2 deep because we can't protect.
And I understand why our offense is the way it is because Ron wants to have a defense and special teams unit that makes plays so our offense doesn't have to be the driving force, but at some point we're going to have to take some chances on offense.
At this point it appears our main attack is from the hashes to the sidelines with both the passing game and the running game. That fits right in with Prince's philosophy. Unfortunately there is not enough there right now. The encouraging thing is that we did get a bit more balance in the passing game in that Murphy caught 8 balls. That's a good thing. But as this thread has said, 16 rushing attempts by our backs is not enough. Its not like we were ever down enough that we had to throw every down. I'm fine with passing the ball often on first down, but we've got to find a way to put more pressure on defenses with the running game. IMO Johnson needs to get the ball at least 15 times per game and Patton 5-10.
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I guess I just haven't figured out where this offense puts pressure on the defense. We can't/won't commit to running the ball, so we do the "run through short passing attack", which only complicates the running game because it moves defenders a bit closer to the LOS, but we don't make them pay for doing so because we can only send 2 receivers into a route against 2 deep because we can't protect.
Bringing defenders closer to the line in the flats (i.e. spreading the field) doesn't have a major effect on running, IMO. At least, it's nothing compared to having a defensive tackle in your backfield every play.
I've convinced myself that the loss of Bedore absolutely devastated the offense in the second half. It's kind of a nice feeling.
Check out the play log....it's an interesting read:
http://www.kstatesports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=3061&SPID=212&DB_OEM_ID=400&ATCLID=1257825
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The loss of Bedore did hurt. McClinton was owning our interior OL, it only got worse when Viers was in there (for instance, on the drive where we successfully kicked a FG. the run on 3rd and 3 that got stuffed was all McClinton). IIRC, the run that JJ scored on (it was 2nd and 1 I think) McClinton wasn't in there, ku had their pass rush DL in there.
I think for running the ball, we need to focus on more traps and counters instead of stretch plays...use angles and agility instead of physicality because we're getting beat upfront.
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Hmm, I know you're a football coach and I'm not, but I think the receiving threats are adequate enough that a few draws a game of 7 yards or more is enough to move the ball. That's the difference between the first half and the second half Saturday - we didn't run much, but we ran enough to move the ball (penalties killed us more than an inability to move the ball).
Don't disagree with that. I'm just saying if you have more legit recieving threats, it puts more pressure on the defense and can open up your running game or the passing game as well.
As far as tendancies go, we really didn't change much from 1st to 2nd half. Nearly every drive in the first half we threw on first down too. Then we tried to come back to the run on 2nd or 3rd or later in the drive. We just couldn't get it done in the 2nd like we did in the first. Its an excuse, but I think the loss of Bedore contributed significantly to that.
One thing I noticed in the second half was that nearly every time Freeman was under center, instead of shutgun, it was a running play -- completely giving away what kind of play was coming just by the formation.
Again, we had a new center. That probably contributed to that tendancy.
Maybe, but we still ran out of shotgun for a vast majority of the passing plays.
It was like watching Beasley or Ell come up to the line and audible -- as soon as you saw the audible, you knew it was an option play.