KSUFans Archives
Sports => Snyder's Electronic Cyber Space World => Topic started by: Powercat Matt on May 08, 2006, 11:55:02 PM
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I've been reading the thread below with rusty and fatty about the future of ksu football, and count me in as another supporter of what they are saying. Look, i'm not saying that stars are EVERYTHING when it comes to recruiting. Of course, many many KSU fans will point out the Terence Newmans, Terry Pierces and Jon McGraws of wildcat past to prove that stars mean nothing.
However, i think there's no doubt that star rankings mean a lot in the long run for a college football program. I mean come on, would you rather have a team of 5 star or a team of 2 star recruits? You're just lying to yourself if you pick the second option. Sure, not all 5 star recruits pan out, but the majority turn out to be impact players. And yes, some 2 star players do turn out to be great players, but who wants to take that gamble a lot? I sure don't. I'm not expecting Ron Prince to ring in every 5 star recruit out there. But when I take a look at a lot of the players he is bringing in for this next recruiting class, I am really concerned. A lot of these recruits don't seem to be getting much interest from other major schools. Sure, we have 13 commits now, but in this case, i'll take quality over quantity. If we're winning recruiting battles over the UTEP's of the world and no one else, i'm taking that as an obvious red flag that our recruting has issues.
I've been a K-State fan ever since I've moved to Manhattan in 1996. Right now I'm a student at the U. of Nebraska, and in no way did my decision involve athletics; i will always be a die hard KSU fan. I get a lot of laughs from friends in Lincoln that see the spin job that many KSU fans do on the internet forums that somehow make it so ringing in 5 star players in lincoln isn't as good as collecting a barrage of 2 star players entering the K-State program. If I have a choice between a team of 4 and 5 star players compared to a team of 2 or 3 star players, i'm taking the 4 or 5 star players every time. They are ranked that high for a reason. I'm not accepting mediocre recruiting for K-State; i think coach Prince can do a lot better, and hopefully things will look better as time progresses. But for now, I have strong concerns, and if you don't either, then you're probably delusional about the whole thing.
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Eventually, they agreed....their point...at least I HOPE was that our recruits will be highly regarded come Feb. 2007. A few of our recruits have picked up interest/offers....but still way to many aren't being heavily recruited. We shall see.
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Excellent first post.
Welcome.
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I’m really not arguing with your main point, but I’m not concerned yet either. Here are some other reasons not to be too concerned about the ranking of the recruiting class thus far.
1. You don’t know what the rest of the class will look like yet. Given what happened with Freeman last year, it seems reasonable to think that Prince will successfully attempt to win late recruiting battles over highly ranked prospects.
2. You don’t know how many of the currently committed prospects will remain on the commit list. Things change. They just do.
3. The rankings aren’t out yet.
4. Most teams are simply not yet making numerous offers. This isn’t because they don’t yet know who the majority of their main targets are. They know. They merely follow a different process before extending offers.
5. We’ve never had a great recruiting class before, yet we’ve had some pretty successful seasons. We can do it again.
Overall, there are too many unknowns and too much is yet to happen for anyone to be concerned.
On a side note, I can definitely say that, other things being equal, I would rather have a team of overachievers than a team of underachievers. Overachievers make for exciting seasons. Underachievers ultimately create nothing but disappointment.
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I'd rather have a team of five-star underachievers than a team of two-star underachievers.
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I'd rather have a team of five-star underachievers than a team of two-star underachievers.
At this point, thinking that we could have a recruiting class full of 5 star achievers of any kind is as delusional as anything. And the sudden realization that we will not be attaining this type of class based on our current commit list is not a cause for concern.
Prince will certainly be pursuing top-rated recruits. If nothing else, he has a (albeit brief) history of it. Really, though, I just can't believe that he is crazy enough or dumb enough not to. Who says, "I'm going to schedule Miami. I need to load up on 2 stars?" Given that he does recruit some top-rated prospects, does it really matter if the "bottom part" of our class includes five 2 stars rather than five 3 stars? I don't think so.
I'm not saying that many of our current commits will become great playmakers on the field (although some may) or end up highly ranked or get lots of offers from other schools. I'm just saying that few of them really need to.
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Excellent first post.
Welcome.
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The key here is that the staff's currently philosophy looks to be recruiting a lot of kids that right now aren't completely conventional football bodies, ie. a bit too small or too short for their positions, and developing these guys into talents. We are willing to focus on speed and give up a little size. We are willing to take a shot on some local kids that are a bit small and we think we can put pounds on as they develop into D1 players.
Of course a bit of this is a sign that we have conceded recruiting blue chip talent at this point and time. We are clearly looking at the specifics and intangibles that we think work and then going after "signable" kids that our staff thinks will fit. Then we go after a few big names we think we might be able to sell, like Freeman last year.
Only 3 or 4 years down the road will we have any indication if this works. It is risky, but obviously our staff for whatever reason thinks this is the route we have to take. Definately they are attempting to be very proactive with the way they recruit which is probably the way to go. Now we just have to hope that they can amp up their evaluation and get into the doors on kids that may be higher rated (more chance of success in most cases) and that they have made correct evaluations on some of these kids that are off the radar now and come on it later.
For example, Cuba being looked at now by OU is a nice sign, but a program like OU coming in next november and putting on the full court press will be the sign that we did our homework and got in on a kid early and evaluated correctly. Next fall and as we head toward the february we'll get more verification (as these kids play and finish their SR years) on whether or not we really are being effective proactive recruiters in the right way or whether we missed the boat on the way we did things with this class. Then more proof will be down the road as we see these kids hit the field and perform against the OUs and UTs.
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Well, on the bright side, we're going to be freaking fast, that's for sure.
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Powercat Matt & everyone else that is worried about this,
These kids that have verbal'ed have NOT BEEN RANKED YET. Everyone, do me a favor right now and do two things.... One, go to: http://kansasstate.rivals.com/commitlist.asp?year=2007&school=34
And notice that none of these players have stars next to them... Hmm.... maybe because they haven't been rated yet....
Second... Go to: http://scout.scout.com/a.z?s=173&p=9&c=11&cfg=null&pid=-1&iSchoolStateProvinceId=-1&iRatingValue=-1&yr=2007&iGetJUCOFlag=-1&iCommitFlag=-1&iGroupbyPosition=0&sTeamofInterestNodeIds=-1&iInterestLevelId=-1&iOffer=-1&iRecruitVisitFlag=-1&OrderbyColumn=RatingValue
This page is a search of ALL the recruits listed on scout regardless of what college preference they have... skip to page 3 and you will notice that for some reason, the recruits go from 4 stars to 1 star within one recruit.... hmmm.... So according to this new evidence, there is only one 3 star recruit in the nation.... Are you kidding me? There are also no 2 star players and a couple thousand 1 star kids... So, I’ve used this little thing called "intelligence" (say it with me now, intelligence.... good) All of these one star kids, have not been rated yet, and might be 3 or 4 star recruits....
As for the argument that these kids aren't picking up any other offers yet; WHO GIVES A CRAP... IT"S MAY.... These kids still have another season of HS ball... We are getting in on these kids early... They could pick up another 10 offers between now and when they actually sign a LOI... 7 MONTHS FROM NOW... KSU recruiters are looking at more film and talking to more coaches than you can imagine.... Think about how much time you spend on this website, at work, at home with your wife/girlfriend/Life partner... All that time, Coach Prince and his staff are looking for Talent.... The very worst thing that could happen is these kids get injured next year, and won't be healthy again for another year and a half... THEIR FRESHMAN YEAR OF COLLEGE...
Simple truth is, that We have never had a #1 recruiting season.... and now it's time to try something different, like doing the footwork and getting these kids before everyone else does. Everyone flipping out is only comparing this season to season's of the past, and honestly 2 years ago, we would have been lucky to have 1 verbal by this time. KSU 2 years ago wasn't even getting commits until nearly everyone had accurate ratings next to their name... But these one star kids haven't even been looked at by ANYONE that assigns stars.
Be patient, its spring, have faith, and try to scratch beneath the surface of what appears to be something to worry about before you start to worry...
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For example, Cuba being looked at now by OU is a nice sign, but a program like OU coming in next november and putting on the full court press will be the sign that we did our homework and got in on a kid early and evaluated correctly. Next fall and as we head toward the february we'll get more verification (as these kids play and finish their SR years) on whether or not we really are being effective proactive recruiters in the right way or whether we missed the boat on the way we did things with this class. Then more proof will be down the road as we see these kids hit the field and perform against the OUs and UTs.
What's going to suck is if the OUs and UTs identify the newly-highly rated recruits next fall, come in and put on the full-court press, and steal away all those athletes that the Princelings are now touting as "just wait, they're gonna be ranked higher," leaving us with with just the underachieving two-star recruits that Rusty and fatty fear. Obviously, we wouldn't have gotten those kids anyway if they decommit from us to go elsewhere and our best chance is to get to them early, but it's still gonna suck.
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overall i dont think our recruiting will be a great deal worse or a great deal better. for now i'm willing to try a different recruting style and see what happens.
all that i really care about is whether this staff can coach or not. see: jim wooldridge vs bob huggins
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For example, Cuba being looked at now by OU is a nice sign, but a program like OU coming in next november and putting on the full court press will be the sign that we did our homework and got in on a kid early and evaluated correctly. Next fall and as we head toward the february we'll get more verification (as these kids play and finish their SR years) on whether or not we really are being effective proactive recruiters in the right way or whether we missed the boat on the way we did things with this class. Then more proof will be down the road as we see these kids hit the field and perform against the OUs and UTs.
What's going to suck is if the OUs and UTs identify the newly-highly rated recruits next fall, come in and put on the full-court press, and steal away all those athletes that the Princelings are now touting as "just wait, they're gonna be ranked higher," leaving us with with just the underachieving two-star recruits that Rusty and fatty fear. Obviously, we wouldn't have gotten those kids anyway if they decommit from us to go elsewhere and our best chance is to get to them early, but it's still gonna suck.
it seems to me that cuba at least is a total lock. grew up in newton, avid kstate fan, accepted literally the minute they offered. also bell sounds like a lock as well. whether they amount to anything as players i have no idea.
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What's the better scenario:
A. Having a commit from a kid early, and then the heavy weights put the pressure on late in the recruiting year.
B. Showing up at the same time, or after, the heavyweights put on the pressure and offering at the same time....or later
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Notice that other teams are offering after Kstate offers.
Notice in the future their star numbers will increase when enough schools start recruiting them and Crabtree puts down his dooby for one second and does a reanalysis on that player.
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I think the strategy here is to lock up some good talent early so that the "great" talent can be wined & dined with a little more attention later. ;)
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ksuno1stunner = concerned
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ksuno1stunner = concerned
isnt ksuno1stunner considering going to another school?
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What's the better scenario:
A. Having a commit from a kid early, and then the heavy weights put the pressure on late in the recruiting year.
B. Showing up at the same time, or after, the heavyweights put on the pressure and offering at the same time....or later
or C. Having a kid commit early that no one else in D1 wants, taking a scholly from a marginal B12 prospect.
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Rusty - it looks like we could be starting two walk-ons at DE this year. Marginal Big 12 talent might just be an upgrade.
Quit being such a freaking puppy dick....
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puppy dick
:confused:
Also, I'm saying marginal Big XII talent might be an upgrade over some of our current commits.
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Was that really too complex a term for you to understand?
Use google image on it, and that's how you look as you go welping through this topic.
I've never before seen a bigger group of change resistant chicken littles before in my life. And all you have to back up your arguement is a 'might'.
Powerful reason to piss all over yourself, don't you think?
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Use google image on it, and that's how you look as you go welping through this topic.
(http://www.fidnet.com/~cpuetz/pictures/bulldogs/puetzpup2.jpg)
Awwwwww! I'm cute!
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I'd like for someone to give me one reason why our current commits are total wash-outs... Anyone? Can anyone give me one reson without referenceing "Stars" and lack of sholarship offers?
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lack of sholarship offers?
That's a pretty big one right there.
Likewise, can anyone provide any reason to think some of these commits won't be total wash-outs?
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Did you read me earlier post? No one in the country is offering people this early. We are like third in line with the most commits.
Come to me with THAT complaint when it's August and these kids still don't have any scholarship offers.
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Did you read me earlier post? No one in the country is offering people this early. We are like third in line with the most commits.
Come to me with THAT complaint when it's August and these kids still don't have any scholarship offers.
Why doesn't anyone in the country (but Kansas State) offer this early?
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Use google image on it, and that's how you look as you go welping through this topic.
(http://www.fidnet.com/~cpuetz/pictures/bulldogs/puetzpup2.jpg)
Awwwwww! I'm cute!
That's a bitch in the picture.
HTH.
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:mad:
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Did you read me earlier post? No one in the country is offering people this early. We are like third in line with the most commits.
Come to me with THAT complaint when it's August and these kids still don't have any scholarship offers.
Why doesn't anyone in the country (but Kansas State) offer this early?
I don't know, I'm not a coach... Maybe everyone else is too panzy to take a step out on a limb, and they're going to wait until every kid they want has recieved 20 different offers from USC, Texas, Ohio State, Auburn, Miami, etc. etc. Maybe they can do that... But how much better are we going to look to these kids by getting there first? How do you know our commits aren't going to be pounded in weeks to come by all of the aformentioned schools? All I'm saying is that there is absolutely no information to say that these kids are bust... I'm not saying they will be great either... I'm just saying that even taking a side on this stupid argument is a bit premature.
But, In case anyone is interested, I looked up everyone's commits, and found that I did make a mistake in my previous post, We have the Second Most commits in the NCAA. Guess who we're behind? Texas.
http://scout.scout.com/a.z?s=173&p=9&c=8&yr=2007&toinid=669&iSchoolStateProvinceId=-1
Gosh, look at all those 1 star kids, Texas must not know what they're doing.
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I know some one will point out the six guys that have more than one star next to there name... But surely you see my point that if it wasn't for those six guys, Texas would be in the same boat as us... 13 guys with 1 star.... Hmmm......
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Did you read me earlier post? No one in the country is offering people this early. We are like third in line with the most commits.
Come to me with THAT complaint when it's August and these kids still don't have any scholarship offers.
Why doesn't anyone in the country (but Kansas State) offer this early?
OK, I'll bite.
Why is that an issue?
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I think the strategy here is to lock up some good talent early so that the "great" talent can be wined & dined with a little more attention later. ;)
Nice opinion... I agree.
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What's the better scenario:
A. Having a commit from a kid early, and then the heavy weights put the pressure on late in the recruiting year.
B. Showing up at the same time, or after, the heavyweights put on the pressure and offering at the same time....or later
or C. Having a kid commit early that no one else in D1 wants, taking a scholly from a marginal B12 prospect.
What Info do you have that leads you to believe that no other D1 school wants these kids?
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What's the better scenario:
A. Having a commit from a kid early, and then the heavy weights put the pressure on late in the recruiting year.
B. Showing up at the same time, or after, the heavyweights put on the pressure and offering at the same time....or later
or C. Having a kid commit early that no one else in D1 wants, taking a scholly from a marginal B12 prospect.
What Info do you have that leads you to believe that no other D1 school wants these kids?
The same info you have that leads you to believe that "heavyweights" will want these kids down the road.
Jesus.
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Did you read me earlier post? No one in the country is offering people this early. We are like third in line with the most commits.
Come to me with THAT complaint when it's August and these kids still don't have any scholarship offers.
Why doesn't anyone in the country (but Kansas State) offer this early?
OK, I'll bite.
Why is that an issue?
Because it's a risk.
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Did you read me earlier post? No one in the country is offering people this early. We are like third in line with the most commits.
Come to me with THAT complaint when it's August and these kids still don't have any scholarship offers.
Why doesn't anyone in the country (but Kansas State) offer this early?
OK, I'll bite.
Why is that an issue?
Because it's a risk.
That's overly broad.
Quantify that risk.
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What's the better scenario:
A. Having a commit from a kid early, and then the heavy weights put the pressure on late in the recruiting year.
B. Showing up at the same time, or after, the heavyweights put on the pressure and offering at the same time....or later
or C. Having a kid commit early that no one else in D1 wants, taking a scholly from a marginal B12 prospect.
What Info do you have that leads you to believe that no other D1 school wants these kids?
The same info you have that leads you to believe that "heavyweights" will want these kids down the road.
Jesus.
Actually, I think I've made it very clear that my opinion is it's just as likely that "heavyweights" will be on these kids as it is that these kids will be a bust...
The point I'm trying to make is that NO ONE KNOWS IF THEY WILL OR IF THEY WON’T BE SUPERSTARS OR BUSTS. I'm not arguing that this is the right thing or the wrong thing. I'm arguing that making such bold statements as: Why are we picking up these losers? Is just as stupid as saying: These one star kids could turn out to be the next Terrance Newman!
I AM TRYING TO SAY THAT ARGUEING ABOUT THIS IS STUPID AS WE ARE ALL BASING OUR BELIEFES ON INCOMPLETE INFORMATION.
I've shown that Top tier programs are getting just as many commits from "UNKNOWN" recruits as us.
I've shown that ranking players at this point in time is based off of incomplete information.
I don't think I can spell it out for anyone any clearer than this: WORRYING ABOUT THIS AT THIS POINT IN TIME IS PREMATURE.
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I'm arguing that making such bold statements as: Why are we picking up these losers?
WTF said that?
Also, Texas' "unknown" commits have offers from schools like LSU, aTm, Gergia Tech, Oklahoma, Florida, Nebraska, Arizona, Oklahoma State, and Texas Tech. Outside of Lamark Brown, the best offer a KSU recruit has is freaking Vanderbilt's offer of Dee Bell.
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Did you read me earlier post? No one in the country is offering people this early. We are like third in line with the most commits.
Come to me with THAT complaint when it's August and these kids still don't have any scholarship offers.
Why doesn't anyone in the country (but Kansas State) offer this early?
OK, I'll bite.
Why is that an issue?
Because it's a risk.
That's overly broad.
Quantify that risk.
Risky enough that less than 99% of D1 football programs are in "wait and see" mode on 90% of our commits.
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Risky enough that less than 99% of D1 football programs are in "wait and see" mode on 90% of our commits.
That's your interpretation.
I can just as easily say the schools are this point haven't begun evaluations on kids.
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Risky enough that less than 99% of D1 football programs are in "wait and see" mode on 90% of our commits.
That's your interpretation.
I can just as easily say the schools are this point haven't begun evaluations on kids.
Why haven't they begun evaluations?
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Risky enough that less than 99% of D1 football programs are in "wait and see" mode on 90% of our commits.
That's your interpretation.
I can just as easily say the schools are this point haven't begun evaluations on kids.
Why haven't they begun evaluations?
The same reason you think they are out there waiting and seeing. They aren't ready to evaluate yet,.
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Why are we ready to evaluate when no one else is?
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the best offer a KSU recruit has is freaking Vanderbilt's offer of Dee Bell.
Vanderbilt is way better than they used to be. They are no longer a laughingstock.
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Why is that a problem that we do it now?
Do you believe this staff is unqualified to evaluate players?
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I'm arguing that making such bold statements as: Why are we picking up these losers?
WTF said that?
Notice I didn't have quotes around that statement? Because I'm summarizing everything that YOU and FATTY are saying.
Also, Texas' "unknown" commits have offers from schools like LSU, aTm, Gergia Tech, Oklahoma, Florida, Nebraska, Arizona, Oklahoma State, and Texas Tech. Outside of Lamark Brown, the best offer a KSU recruit has is freaking Vanderbilt's offer of Dee Bell.
HOW MANY FRICK'N TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY IT? THE RECRUITING PROCESS IS IN PHASE 1 OF 20 PHASES (<------- THAT IS SARCASM, BUT YOU GET MY POINT) There are 9 months left to complain about this, why is this such a big deal at this point. Any one of our guys could easily pick up 5 offers tomorrow! Is it Likely? Just as likely as it would be for them to not pick up any! My point is, Stop b1tching about the story line to a book when all you've done is read the title.
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I understand you are stubborn, so I'll help you out with this one.
I'm sorry FBWillie, I just can't admit to myself or anyone else that I am wrong... I'll try to be more patient in the future and have faith in our coaching staff because I love KSU so much that I will stand behind them like family. I may not always agree with their actions, but I'll support Coach Prince like he's my brother, because he is what we have. Jumping ship early and firing a coach for no reason at all will ultimately make us just like Nebraska. Fatty and I will try to work on seeing things from both perspectives and not be so quick to judge. Thank you for showing us the error in our ways.
:D :D :D :D
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Why is that a problem that we do it now?
Do you believe this staff is unqualified to evaluate players?
You're avoiding the question.
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Why is that a problem that we do it now?
Do you believe this staff is unqualified to evaluate players?
You're avoiding the question.
Prince has stated before recruiting is a 365 24/7 job.
Do you believe that's a problem and are they unqualified to do so?
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Why is that a problem that we do it now?
Do you believe this staff is unqualified to evaluate players?
You're avoiding the question.
Prince has stated before recruiting is a 365 24/7 job.
Do you believe that's a problem and are they unqualified to do so?
I don't believe the staff "unqualified", but I believe that the jury is still out on their ability to evaluate players without seeing them in action.
Do you believe Prince and his staff work harder than other D1 staffs?
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Why is that a problem that we do it now?
Do you believe this staff is unqualified to evaluate players?
You're avoiding the question.
Prince has stated before recruiting is a 365 24/7 job.
Do you believe that's a problem and are they unqualified to do so?
I don't believe the staff "unqualified", but I believe that the jury is still out on their ability to evaluate players without seeing them in action.
Do you believe Prince and his staff work harder than other D1 staffs?
Your jury has already made judgements on the current recruiting and commits.
Working harder at what?
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Why is that a problem that we do it now?
Do you believe this staff is unqualified to evaluate players?
You're avoiding the question.
Prince has stated before recruiting is a 365 24/7 job.
Do you believe that's a problem and are they unqualified to do so?
I don't believe the staff "unqualified", but I believe that the jury is still out on their ability to evaluate players without seeing them in action.
Do you believe Prince and his staff work harder than other D1 staffs?
I believe they are working harder. Is that so hard to believe... Everything we are reading/ seeing/ hearing talks about how much more energetic this staff is. Why is it hard to believe that our staff is working just as hard as Texas who has 19 commits?
Could it be possible that they were looking at Sophomores last year when they finished off their 06 recruiting... What you are suggesting as doubtful isn't impossible, and frankly I'm getting a little tired of you bashing KANSAS STATE UNIVERSITY's coach that hasn't proven himself as either a loser or a winner. Why can't you give him the benefeit of the doubt based soley on the fact that Bill Snyder had some say in Coach Prince getting hired? Can't you give him the benefeit of the doubt based on the energy he has surrounded this program in the last 3 months?