KSUFans Archives
Sports => Snyder's Electronic Cyber Space World => Topic started by: The Manhatter on May 16, 2007, 06:06:27 PM
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explain to me how this Auburn line up beat the #1 and #3 teams in Florida and LSU(both LOADED w/ 4 and 5 star players) let alone beat Nebraska? I'm not looking for an argument I just want to hear an explanation. A simple explanation for how this could happen would be suffice. I mean all of the "rivals 100", "ESPN says greatest QB ever", "5 star OL coming out of our...", "KSU can't compete w/ this hot, hot, hot recruits...ooh Callahan's hot!".
Again, not starting an argument just looking for a simple answer how this Auburn team beat rivals100 clubs AND has gone 33-5 the past 3 years. Thanks.
Auburn
POS ## OFFENSE
QB 12 Brandon Cox - 4 stars in 2002
RB 23 Kenny Irons - did not see on commit list
WR 25 Lee Guess - 2 stars in 2002
C 50 Joe Cope - "(barely-->)6-foot nuttin' a hundred and nuttin'" Rudy style walk-on
G 69 Ben Grubbs - 3 stars in 2002
G 76 Tim Duckworth - 4 stars in 2003 (not drafted while 3 stars Grubbs goes in 1st round to Baltimore..interesting)
T 77 King Dunlap - 3 stars in 2003
T 79 Jonathan Palmer - 3 stars in 2002
WR 80 R. Smith - Did not find in database
WR 86 Courtney Taylor - 3 stars in 2002
TE 87 Cole Bennett - 3 stars in 2003
POS ## DEFENSE
DB 2 Aairon Savage - 3 stars in 2005
DB 4 David Irons - 3 stars in 2003
LB 21 Karibi Dede - 3 stars in 2002
DB 24 J. Wilhite - 3 stars in 2005
SS 33 Eric Brock - 3 stars in 2003
LB 35 Will Herring - 3 stars in 2002
DE 48 Marquies Gunn - 2 stars in 2003
DE 54 Quentin Groves - 4 stars in 2003
LB 55 Merrill Johnson - 2 stars in 2004
DT 94 S. Marks - 2 stars in 2005
NG 97 Josh Thompson - 3 stars in 2003
Toodles.
:users:
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No explanation from NU concerning Auburn's success with 2-3 star recruits in the nation's best conference?
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BTW,
QB - Josh Freeman - 4 stars
RB - James Johnson - 3 stars out of high school, 4 stars out of juco
WR - Jordy Nelson - walk-on
WR - Cedric Wilson - 3 stars out of high school, 2 stars out of juco
WR - LaMark Brown - 4 stars
TE - Rashaad Norwood - 3 stars
OL - Logan Robinson - 3 stars
OL - Alesana Alesana - 3 stars
OL - Jordan Bedore - 2 stars
OL - Derek Meyer - 2 stars
OL - Nick Stringer - 3 stars
DE - Rob Jackson - 3 stars
DT - Jr. Moran - 3 stars
DE - Mike Abana - 3 stars
LB - Ian Campbell - walk-on
LB - Smoke Patterson - 5 stars out of high school, 4 stars out of juco
LB - Reggie Walker - 3 stars
LB - Justin Roland - 3 stars
CB - Josh Moore - 2 stars
CB - Bryan Baldwin - 3 stars
SS - Gary Chandler - 2 stars out of high school, 4 stars out of juco
FS - Marcus Watts - 2 stars
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Football is all about coaching and player development.
The skill positions (QB, WR, RB) are really the only positions where rankings make a big difference.
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(QB, WR, RB)
I wouldn't mind seeing some data on that.
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stunner, Lamark is 4 stars you blasphemous pig.
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So, if we do land Arthur that's three straight years of having a higher rated recruit than any sker' recruit.
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Well at the three skill positions you list.. We have three four stars (Johnson, Freeman and Lamark) and another phenomenal receiver (Jordy). So I'd say we are off to a decent start then..
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stunner, Lamark is 4 stars you blasphemous pig.
(http://kansasstate.rivals.com/images/smilies/embarassed.gif)
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Three of K-State's best players (Josh Moore, Marcus Watts, and Ian Campbell) were either 2-stars or unranked coming out of high school. I think that says a lot about the value of rankings and player development.
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Three of K-State's best players (Josh Moore, Marcus Watts, and Ian Campbell) were either 2-stars or unranked coming out of high school. I think that says a lot about the value of rankings and player development.
That's what Hatter's original point was. You forgot Jordy Nelson in there as well.
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Auburn was incredibly talented and experienced on the OL and in the secondary, which I think led to a lot of their success last year. I believe they had 4 or 5 senior starters on the OL, including 1st rounder Ben Grubbs (who coincidently got his lunch eaten against Nebraska). Their DBs just manhandled our wide receivers so I imagine they did the same to LSU and Florida. Most physical secondary I've seen in years of watching college football.
On a side note, the NU and Auburn staff's became really good friends after the game. The coaching staffs each spent time at each other's school during the winter/spring trading ideas. I think Nebraska was taking some defensive schemes and Auburn was taking some practice tips in exchange.
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How experienced were they the two years before? Hatter said that they have a record of 33-5 in the past three years. His point is that stars don't necessarily indicate anything about a team.
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..and another phenomenal receiver (Jordy)
I wouldnt' call Jordy "phenomenal" unless I was on hornfans.com. (that one is for you fatty)
good point by BMW. Did I just say that? But I will say that Crabby said rivals just screwed up on Moore. He was supposed to be ranked higher when they did their final florida rankings but somehow he was forgotten and left out. And he said that not too long after signing day so it isn't like he tried to come up w/ something after he started playing. His problem was that he was going to be a late qualifier.
I still love you stunner, even if you are a blasphemous pig for missing Lamar's 4th star. Poet Warrior and a baseball bat would like a word w/ you.
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..and another phenomenal receiver (Jordy)
I wouldnt' call Jordy "phenomenal" unless I was on hornfans.com. (that one is for you fatty)
good point by BMW. Did I just say that? But I will say that Crabby said rivals just screwed up on Moore. He was supposed to be ranked higher when they did their final florida rankings but somehow he was forgotten and left out. And he said that not too long after signing day so it isn't like he tried to come up w/ something after he started playing. His problem was that he was going to be a late qualifier.
I still love you stunner, even if you are a blasphemous pig for missing Lamar's 4th star. Poet Warrior and a baseball bat would like a word w/ you.
It will never happen again, I promise! :crybaby:
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Auburn was incredibly talented and experienced on the OL and in the secondary
Maxell, I appreciate your attempting to answer the question but your "incredibly talented" lines fly in the face of what Nebraska fans are telling us. You say we aren't getting any talent due to rankings yet Auburn is incredibly talented when their starters will basically have same rankings as KSU. I was hoping you could explain THAT aspect of it.
Also they must not have been that incrediby talented on the OL as seniors Cope, Duckworth, and Palmer went undrafted.
On a side note, the NU and Auburn staff's became really good friends after the game. The coaching staffs each spent time at each other's school during the winter/spring trading ideas. I think Nebraska was taking some defensive schemes and Auburn was taking some practice tips in exchange.
:kugayfight:
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so when we were all bitchin about recruiting last year and dax said stars had nothing to do with it he was right?
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I think talent can be offset by either a coaching staff that develops and coaches up their players, a unique system, or an experience laden team. So no talent is not the end all be all-you never know what you're going to get from an 18, 19 or 20 year old kid from week to week. I will say its going to be interesting to see what happens at Nebraska the next few years with the group of players that will be on the roster. I feel we have the best strength coach in the country and when you give him elite athletes to mold and develop, put them in a system developed around competition, you have a recipe for success. I like where Nebraska is at now.
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I think talent can be offset by either a coaching staff that develops and coaches up their players, a unique system, or an experience laden team. So no talent is not the end all be all-you never know what you're going to get from an 18, 19 or 20 year old kid from week to week. I will say its going to be interesting to see what happens at Nebraska the next few years with the group of players that will be on the roster. I feel we have the best strength coach in the country and when you give him elite athletes to mold and develop, put them in a system developed around competition, you have a recipe for success. I like where Nebraska is at now.
so are you saying KSU has maybe a 1 in a 1,000, 000 chance against NU's 5 stars?
:'(
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I really don't understand the point of this thread manhatter. if the point of it is to show that you rattle off at the mouth without doing research, congrats. mission accomplished. you rattle on about how auburn beat this team and that team and yet doesn't recruit at a high level but you would be very wrong. In 02 their class ranking was 6. in 03 it was 11. to get those kind of rankings, it takes a hell of alot of talent. infact, between 02 and 03 they brought in a pair of 5 star players, 16, 4 star players and 32, 3 star players. that is a hell of alot of talent by anyones standards. and you would expect any team that brings in that talent to do exactly what auburn has done, which is operate at a high level.
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I really don't understand the point of this thread manhatter. if the point of it is to show that you rattle off at the mouth without doing research, congrats. mission accomplished. you rattle on about how auburn beat this team and that team and yet doesn't recruit at a high level but you would be very wrong. In 02 their class ranking was 6. in 03 it was 11. to get those kind of rankings, it takes a hell of alot of talent. infact, between 02 and 03 they brought in a pair of 5 star players, 16, 4 star players and 32, 3 star players. that is a hell of alot of talent by anyones standards. and you would expect any team that brings in that talent to do exactly what auburn has done, which is operate at a high level.
I didn't research it? Why are you talking about recruiting classes when I LISTED the starters who actually PLAYED and posted their rankings!! I don't give a sh*t if Auburn had a 6th rated class or whatever..point is all of their starters were 2 and 3 stars. The facts are the facts. Don't post Class rankings as they didn't play...the actual players who played and their rankings are posted.
FYI, according to you a Matt Boss and Nick Patton would bump our recruiting class...too bad they don't effect the play on the field. See how that works? If I were you and did my "research" I would know that Boss and Patton factor into KSU's team but that isn't the case and neither is it w/ Auburn's.
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I think you better get Nebraska in 2008 in Manhattan or its going to be a while before you get another chance. Prince's wagon is clearly hitched to Freeman in a 3-4 year project and he will need to get it done next year. That game will feature an experienced K State team going against a Nebraska team losing a bunch of experience so that's your shot.
Also a short answer to your above question-I think if a team wants to be consistently good from year to year you've got to get it done in recruiting each season. You might have an experienced team that gets it done once every couple of years but if you've recruited average players, when the experience graduates, you're going back to a valley. Nebraska will have a dropoff in 2008 but it will be minimal compared to a team that's not had four consecutive top 15 recruiting classes.
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You're wrong. Jordy is phenomenal.
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"point is all of their starters were 2 and 3 stars. "
but on your list you have some 4 stars. plus, irons was a 4-5 star.
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Auburn recruits. The star rankings may be similar to KSU's, but when you compare who offered Auburn's 2006 starting lineup vs the KSU lineup you will find your answer.
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I don't know what provoked this thread, but if it's about some of our fans going onto other boards and bragging I apologize.
I don't really care how much talent Auburn had, they just fielded a better team than us that day and won. They have good coaches, and their results show it.
That said, I think KSU has a great shot to win that game. I don't see Auburn's offense being that great really. Their defense should be pretty stout though. I think KSU has a lot of talent on defense so they should be able to keep the game close, and if the offense is clicking then KSU can definitely win.
The KSU offense is the big x factor in that game, IMO. It was so up-and-down last year, so I don't know what to expect from Freeman and company at all.
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You are way more optimistic than me.
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Unless KSU's offensive line figures out how to GEL anytime soon, I'm not looking for KSU to beat Auburn. I think KSU can beat Auburn, but our O-Line had better figure out how to become more solid.
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You are way more optimistic than me.
Auburn's defense is just brutal. Their offense isn't going to blow anyone off the field though. Our secondary sucked last year and they were one of the only teams we played that couldn't exploit it, and they tried all game.
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We couldn't either. :'(
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We couldn't either. :'(
Yeah, that really broke my heart too. :hope:
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We couldn't either. :'(
Yeah, that really broke my heart too. :hope:
Haha. :banghead:
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I guess thats a no comment from hatter
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gay,
you can't be serious?
I guess thats a no comment from hatter
and you are suggesting that I'm ducking the quote below? LOL.
but on your list you have some 4 stars. plus, irons was a 4-5 star.
I think I can count and 4 4star starters amongst 22 isn't exactly what today's Nebraska fan thinks is a top 5-10 team who is capable of beating other top 5-10 teams. That was the whole point of this thread. Get it?
I put up the numbers...basically all of Auburn's starters are 2 and 3 stars...thanks for pointing out something the rest of us gleaned after reading the initial post, few 4 stars.
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Manhatter,
You've been around long enough to know two players can be ranked 3 stars but one is a low 3 star and one is a high 3 star. KSU and Auburns starting lineups may have similar star power, but again, look at who was offering the Auburn recruits compared to the KSU recruits. That is where you will find the answer to your original question.
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Auburn Rivals recruiting rankings:
2002-6th (3.21 avg star)
2003-11th (3.23 avg star)
2004-21st (2.67 avg star)
2005-13th (3.19 avg star)
2006-10th (3.52 avg star)
2007-7th (3.37 avg star)
That's good recruiting, no matter what stock you put into the individual star ratings. Auburn is a program, that because of its consistently good recruiting, is a perennial top 10-20 team right now with no signs of any valleys in the near future. If Kansas State puts together five recruiting classes in a row like Auburn's, I would expect them to be a perennial top 20 team as well.
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Maxell, the star ratings of the classes do little for me.
It's the kids who are on the field.
If you assign a 2 star for the walk-on and R. Smith Auburn is comfortably below 3 stars on average for the kids who actually play(translation: see the field, pass and catch, tackle, score, etc.)
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On the other hand, maybe that 2 star has been developed well and matured and the 3 or 4 star that should be in front of him has stayed the same as in HS. That 3-4 star guy might be on the scout team, which still helps a team in preparations. If you want to see why USC is so good, take a look at the guys they have on their practice squad. Steel sharpens steel.
As I said before, lots of factors go into the success of a team and a big component is bringing in talented players. Of course you still have to develop them or it does no good. But ask yourself this-would you rather be in the position of USC, Oklahoma, Ohio State, LSU etc and have great players coming into your program each year; or would you rather be recruiting in the 40 and 50 range and hoping your staff can work magic and make you a perennial 9-10 win team? If you say it doesn't matter then you're just a fool.
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On the other hand, maybe that 2 star has been developed well and matured and the 3 or 4 star that should be in front of him has stayed the same as in HS.
Correct so tell me why, again, Nebraska fans show up on KSU boards telling wildcat fans we don't stand a chance based on kids who have never been in a college game? I know that for every 4 star bust Snyder had he has a 2 or 3 star playing in the NFL as we speak.
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Snyder was a helluva coach who had a great system in place to develop his talent. He also had some great, great coaches on his staff during his tenure. The kid that is a 2 star who ends up being a first round draft pick is the rare exception, not the rule. You fill your whole roster with players of that caliber and you're headed for trouble. Again, I ask you whose position you'd rather be in-that of the teams I listed or that of a team with the 40th or 50th best recruiting class in the country on a given year.
Here's a question for you Hatter-has any team EVER beaten Kansas State because they just flat out had better players? I mean, ever? You downplay the talent factor like it means nothing. Wanna know why USC beat Nebraska last year? Because they had better players. Wanna know why Oklahoma beat Nebraska last year? Because they had better players. Is Nebraska closing the gap with those teams? Absolutely. Is it largely because NU has recruited better players in the past few years. Absolutely.
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The question should really be . . . has a team beat KSU when KSU fielded a good team, and the other team was just flat out better than KSU??
My answer to that would be yes . . .but you have to go back to 1994-1995-1996-1997 against the cornholes to find that (albeit I am still mad that Snyder folded the tent so damn easily in Lincoln in 1997 but that's another story for another time).
Now, some people would say that for the last 3 years KSU lost to a number of teams that were just "flat out better", and I would respectfully disagree. Taking nothing away from the teams that have defeated KSU over the last 3 years (and even in the previous 4 or 5 years), because they beat KSU fair and square no doubt about it. But in none of those losses did I sit there and say, "man, we just have no chance against these guys, they're just that much better than KSU."
I personally think, "star wars" aside that KSU is getting some pretty darn good football players. I also think that Prince has the coaching prowess to have winning seasons every year, and to take KSU to a bowl game every year . . . what I am concerned with, and what many K-State fans are concerned with is . . . . does Prince have the ability to go out and coach this program to 10-11-12 win seasons on a regular basis. I have serious doubts about that at this moment in time.
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jeesh, the hatter aint doing so well in this thread. kind of like the other threads he gets owned in on other boards
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so it's about who offered them? Okay.
QB - Josh Freeman - 4 stars (Nebraska and Oklahoma)
RB - James Johnson - 3 stars out of high school, 4 stars out of juco (Texas A&M out of JC and LSU out of high school)
WR - Jordy Nelson - walk-on
WR - Cedric Wilson - 3 stars out of high school, 2 stars out of juco (West Virginia out of high school)
WR - LaMark Brown - 4 stars (Nebraska)
TE - Rashaad Norwood - 3 stars
OL - Brock unruh - 3 stars (Nebraska and Colorado)
OL - Alesana Alesana - 3 stars (Texas A&M)
OL - Jordan Bedore - 2 stars
OL - Derek Meyer - 2 stars
OL - Nick Stringer - 3 stars (Oklahoma)
DE - Rob Jackson - 3 stars (Rutgers, Iowa, etc)
DT - Jr. Moran - 3 stars (North Carolina)
DE - Mike Abana - 3 stars (Texas A&M)
LB - Ian Campbell - walk-on
LB - Smoke Patterson - 5 stars out of high school, 4 stars out of juco (OU, Ohio State, etc)
LB - Reggie Walker - 3 stars (Oregon)
LB - Justin Roland - 3 stars
CB - Josh Moore - 2 stars (Florida State)
CB - Bryan Baldwin - 3 stars (Wisconsin)
SS - Gary Chandler - 2 stars out of high school, 4 stars out of juco (Arkansas, Louisville)
FS - Marcus Watts - 2 stars
nothing but crap schools offering our kids.
:blindfold: