There is no positive spin to this one.

[sys]

imo, this idea of "i just want the program to be a top 25-ish" is fantasty because it's unsustainable.  the ying and the yang of "averaging" to be a top 25-ish type team will lead the fan base wanting more.  Louisville is mentioned....Pitino is on the hot seat for doing exactly what is being described/wanted.   we'll get there with frank within 3 years, especially if this seaon keeps going the way it looks like it will.  "just make it to a decent bowl game" is nice in theory, but, imo, will not work.  

yeah, this is true.  it's just funny that half the kstate fans are already there.

[MakeItRain]

imo, this idea of "i just want the program to be a top 25-ish" is fantasty because it's unsustainable.  the ying and the yang of "averaging" to be a top 25-ish type team will lead the fan base wanting more.  Louisville is mentioned....Pitino is on the hot seat for doing exactly what is being described/wanted.   we'll get there with frank within 3 years, especially if this seaon keeps going the way it looks like it will.  "just make it to a decent bowl game" is nice in theory, but, imo, will not work.  

I know you don't know a whole lot about CBB, but most if not all of the money people of Louisville have experienced two national championships.  None of the money people at Kansas State have experienced a final four.  They have spent 30 years as a top 25 team and expect more. We have been a top 50 team the last 30 years and expect more.  If Frank moves us to a top 10-15 program then his expectations will change.

[catzacker]

imo, this idea of "i just want the program to be a top 25-ish" is fantasty because it's unsustainable.  the ying and the yang of "averaging" to be a top 25-ish type team will lead the fan base wanting more.  Louisville is mentioned....Pitino is on the hot seat for doing exactly what is being described/wanted.   we'll get there with frank within 3 years, especially if this seaon keeps going the way it looks like it will.  "just make it to a decent bowl game" is nice in theory, but, imo, will not work.  

I know you don't know a whole lot about CBB, but most if not all of the money people of Louisville have experienced two national championships.  None of the money people at Kansas State have experienced a final four.  They have spent 30 years as a top 25 team and expect more. We have been a top 50 team the last 30 years and expect more.  If Frank moves us to a top 10-15 program then his expectations will change.

i know you have a hard time reading/comprehending but you're basically describing exactly what I'm saying.   

[MakeItRain]

imo, this idea of "i just want the program to be a top 25-ish" is fantasty because it's unsustainable.  the ying and the yang of "averaging" to be a top 25-ish type team will lead the fan base wanting more.  Louisville is mentioned....Pitino is on the hot seat for doing exactly what is being described/wanted.   we'll get there with frank within 3 years, especially if this seaon keeps going the way it looks like it will.  "just make it to a decent bowl game" is nice in theory, but, imo, will not work.  

I know you don't know a whole lot about CBB, but most if not all of the money people of Louisville have experienced two national championships.  None of the money people at Kansas State have experienced a final four.  They have spent 30 years as a top 25 team and expect more. We have been a top 50 team the last 30 years and expect more.  If Frank moves us to a top 10-15 program then his expectations will change.

i know you have a hard time reading/comprehending but you're basically describing exactly what I'm saying.   

No I understood perfectly what you said, you're arguing against a point no one made.  No one said KSU should be happy being in the 20-25 range forever.

Louisville fans have different expectations because they are literally 30 years ahead of us.  They also have a coach with multiple final fours and a national championship.  No one said every program that's a top 25 program should be happy with just that forever.  Louisville with their recent history and coach shouldn't.  Gonzaga, Pitt, and KSU should.

[CNS]

imo, this idea of "i just want the program to be a top 25-ish" is fantasty because it's unsustainable.  the ying and the yang of "averaging" to be a top 25-ish type team will lead the fan base wanting more.  Louisville is mentioned....Pitino is on the hot seat for doing exactly what is being described/wanted.   we'll get there with frank within 3 years, especially if this seaon keeps going the way it looks like it will.  "just make it to a decent bowl game" is nice in theory, but, imo, will not work.  

No way it happens in only 3 years.  If Frank keeps us at the E8, then some may wonder why he keeps hitting that wall, and wonder what it takes to get through the wall.  However, if we never get back to the E8, most will think that we caught lightning in a bottle, Denis' jersey will get retired, and our fans will continue being football fans.  If the latter happens, we won't even be a fringe team and your point is irrelevant. 

As long as Frank keeps us going to the tourney, it will take much more than 3 years to erase memories.

Imo, for fans to get to this point, they need to experience high success more than once.  We haven't.  crap, some may argue that E8 isn't "high success".

[KITNfury]

I see a major difference between being a consistent top 25 team and "average a fringe top 25 type team".

KSU under Frank Martin is, on average, the #23 ranked team by kenpom.  The Cats' regular season averages are 22-9 (10-6).  We have a #2 seed, a #11 seed, an NIT season, and what looks to be a fringe top 25, 6 seed type season this year.  This season being pure speculation.

The key is having consistency as a program.  There will be years where we are overrated.  There will be years where the Cats surprise and exceed expectations.  There will be years where we are rebuilding and are relegated to the NIT.  There will also be years similar to last season where we are a high seed in the NCAA tournament.

Eventually some of those 2009-10 type seasons will earn some conference titles, or conference tournament titles.  Eventually some of those 2009-10 type seasons will get us into the Final Four and maybe to a national title.  There will also be seasons where we perform well in the regular season only to be ousted early in the tournament, and "choke." There will also be seasons where we struggle some in the regular season but put it together for a nice tournament run.  

I dunno I guess I am out of touch.

Louisville, under Pitino, averages #18 kenpom, 22-8 (11-5) in conference, #7 seed in NCAA.  These averages don't include 2001-02 in which L'vill wen 19-13 (8-8) and was in the NIT.  I left them out because it was before kenpom.  I guess that type of program is low expectations.  

Good breakdown, I was just going to ask him to name the 23-25 programs currently in better shape than K-State.

You could have asked, but it wouldn't have had anything to do with what I said.

[MakeItRain]

I see a major difference between being a consistent top 25 team and "average a fringe top 25 type team".

KSU under Frank Martin is, on average, the #23 ranked team by kenpom.  The Cats' regular season averages are 22-9 (10-6).  We have a #2 seed, a #11 seed, an NIT season, and what looks to be a fringe top 25, 6 seed type season this year.  This season being pure speculation.

The key is having consistency as a program.  There will be years where we are overrated.  There will be years where the Cats surprise and exceed expectations.  There will be years where we are rebuilding and are relegated to the NIT.  There will also be years similar to last season where we are a high seed in the NCAA tournament.

Eventually some of those 2009-10 tyype seasons will earn some conference titles, or conference tournament titles.  Eventually some of those 2009-10 type seasons will get us into the Final Four and maybe to a national title.  There will also be seasons where we perform well in the regular season only to be ousted early in the tournament, and "choke." There will also be seasons where we struggle some in the regular season but put it together for a nice tournament run.  

I dunno I guess I am out of touch.

Louisville, under Pitino, averages #18 kenpom, 22-8 (11-5) in conference, #7 seed in NCAA.  These averages don't include 2001-02 in which L'vill wen 19-13 (8-8) and was in the NIT.  I left them out because it was before kenpom.  I guess that type of program is low expectations.  

Good breakdown, I was just going to ask him to name the 23-25 programs currently in better shape than K-State.

You could have asked, but it wouldn't have had anything to do withhat I said.
[/quot
 
I suppose I miss your point then.  Most team's place in the top 25 is fleeting, is it not.  UNC is one of the top 5 teams of all time, where they be if they miss the tournament two more years?  People would have laughed at you five years ago if you told them that Indiana isn't even a top 5 program in the Big 10 anymore.

[KITNfury]

Mainly because I couldn't tell if you were trying to agree with nicname or tell him that his expectations should be higher. You said you think we should be a top 25 program, he said fringe top 25. That's a massive difference. If you were trying to agree with him, your statement was light years from his. If you were trying to say he should elevate his expectations, then it's a difficult task to be a ranked team on any given year.

[catzacker]

imo, this idea of "i just want the program to be a top 25-ish" is fantasty because it's unsustainable.  the ying and the yang of "averaging" to be a top 25-ish type team will lead the fan base wanting more.  Louisville is mentioned....Pitino is on the hot seat for doing exactly what is being described/wanted.   we'll get there with frank within 3 years, especially if this seaon keeps going the way it looks like it will.  "just make it to a decent bowl game" is nice in theory, but, imo, will not work.  

I know you don't know a whole lot about CBB, but most if not all of the money people of Louisville have experienced two national championships.  None of the money people at Kansas State have experienced a final four.  They have spent 30 years as a top 25 team and expect more. We have been a top 50 team the last 30 years and expect more.  If Frank moves us to a top 10-15 program then his expectations will change.

i know you have a hard time reading/comprehending but you're basically describing exactly what I'm saying.   

No I understood perfectly what you said, you're arguing against a point no one made.  No one said KSU should be happy being in the 20-25 range forever.

Louisville fans have different expectations because they are literally 30 years ahead of us.  They also have a coach with multiple final fours and a national championship.  No one said every program that's a top 25 program should be happy with just that forever.  Louisville with their recent history and coach shouldn't.  Gonzaga, Pitt, and KSU should.

my post was in reference to nicnames' post.  so that was the point I was arguing.

Louisville's recent history/success is under pitino.  unless you consider "recent" as their championship in fracking '86 (which was denny's last real success for the next 15 years).  

[MakeItRain]

Mainly because I couldn't tell if you were trying to agree with nicname or tell him that his expectations should be higher. You said you think we should be a top 25 program, he said fringe top 25. That's a massive difference. If you were trying to agree with him, your statement was light years from his. If you were trying to say he should elevate his expectations, then it's a difficult task to be a ranked team on any given year.

When you made your post about fringe top 25 I didn't address nickname at all.  It's impossible to disagree with his post since it was rooted in statistical fact.  I will, and I think he will as well, take exception with your assertion that there is a massive difference between a top 25 program and a fringe top 25 program.  First of all I don't know what a fringe top 25 program is, either you are or you're not.  If you are saying that there is a massive difference between a top 10  program and a top 25, while I'd take exception to the word massive I wouldn't have a problem with the conclusion.

I thought I made my feelings clear I guess not so I'll say it again.  For where we are right now we should be happy with being competitive for the conference championship and a legit shot at the final four.  If we start to win conference championships and make the final four with some kind of regularity them we can adjust our expectations.  Notice I said multiple, even if we win one national championship those expectations shouldn't change.  Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, Michigan State, Florida, and Kansas have had very recent sustained success, they should have elevated expectations.

[MakeItRain]

imo, this idea of "i just want the program to be a top 25-ish" is fantasty because it's unsustainable.  the ying and the yang of "averaging" to be a top 25-ish type team will lead the fan base wanting more.  Louisville is mentioned....Pitino is on the hot seat for doing exactly what is being described/wanted.   we'll get there with frank within 3 years, especially if this seaon keeps going the way it looks like it will.  "just make it to a decent bowl game" is nice in theory, but, imo, will not work.  

I know you don't know a whole lot about CBB, but most if not all of the money people of Louisville have experienced two national championships.  None of the money people at Kansas State have experienced a final four.  They have spent 30 years as a top 25 team and expect more. We have been a top 50 team the last 30 years and expect more.  If Frank moves us to a top 10-15 program then his expectations will change.

i know you have a hard time reading/comprehending but you're basically describing exactly what I'm saying.   

No I understood perfectly what you said, you're arguing against a point no one made.  No one said KSU should be happy being in the 20-25 range forever.

Louisville fans have different expectations because they are literally 30 years ahead of us.  They also have a coach with multiple final fours and a national championship.  No one said every program that's a top 25 program should be happy with just that forever.  Louisville with their recent history and coach shouldn't.  Gonzaga, Pitt, and KSU should.

my post was in reference to nicnames' post.  so that was the point I was arguing.

Louisville's recent history/success is under pitino.  unless you consider "recent" as their championship in fracking '86 (which was denny's last real success for the next 15 years).  

First of all a lot of Pitino's issues are about HOW he is running the program.  The Karen Sypher incident embarrassed the entire university, he survived because he's Rick Pitino, but he was damaged greatly. 

Secondly, as far as on court results, he shouldn't be on any hot seat, IMHO.  In your post when you talked about Louisville, you mentioned fan expectations.  And as far as that goes yes '86 and '80 are very relevant because to most of their boosters and season ticket holders that wasn't very long ago.  Also they have a coach that won the title in '97. Because of this and their facilities the people there think they are with the schools I mentioned in my previous post.  It's the best job in the Big East but they're not a blue blood anymore.  I consider them the best of the rest.

[Immaculate1]

imo, this idea of "i just want the program to be a top 25-ish" is fantasty because it's unsustainable.  the ying and the yang of "averaging" to be a top 25-ish type team will lead the fan base wanting more.  Louisville is mentioned....Pitino is on the hot seat for doing exactly what is being described/wanted.   we'll get there with frank within 3 years, especially if this seaon keeps going the way it looks like it will.  "just make it to a decent bowl game" is nice in theory, but, imo, will not work. 

I know you don't know a whole lot about CBB, but most if not all of the money people of Louisville have experienced two national championships.  None of the money people at Kansas State have experienced a final four.  They have spent 30 years as a top 25 team and expect more. We have been a top 50 team the last 30 years and expect more.  If Frank moves us to a top 10-15 program then his expectations will change.

i know you have a hard time reading/comprehending but you're basically describing exactly what I'm saying.   

No I understood perfectly what you said, you're arguing against a point no one made.  No one said KSU should be happy being in the 20-25 range forever.

Louisville fans have different expectations because they are literally 30 years ahead of us.  They also have a coach with multiple final fours and a national championship.  No one said every program that's a top 25 program should be happy with just that forever.  Louisville with their recent history and coach shouldn't.  Gonzaga, Pitt, and KSU should.

my post was in reference to nicnames' post.  so that was the point I was arguing.

Louisville's recent history/success is under pitino.  unless you consider "recent" as their championship in shazbot!ing '86 (which was denny's last real success for the next 15 years). 

First of all a lot of Pitino's issues are about HOW he is running the program.  The Karen Sypher incident embarrassed the entire university, he survived because he's Rick Pitino, but he was damaged greatly. 

Secondly, as far as on court results, he shouldn't be on any hot seat, IMHO.  In your post when you talked about Louisville, you mentioned fan expectations.  And as far as that goes yes '86 and '80 are very relevant because to most of their boosters and season ticket holders that wasn't very long ago.  Also they have a coach that won the title in '97. Because of this and their facilities the people there think they are with the schools I mentioned in my previous post.  It's the best job in the Big East but they're not a blue blood anymore.  I consider them the best of the rest.

He won it in 96, if he plays derek anderson, he also wins it in 97.

[nicname]

BTW, by fringe, I just meant a team that, on average ends up around #25.  Some years they are better some years they are worse.

Villanova, for instance, has been kenpom's 54, 44, 4, 7, 19, 43, 14, 21 ranked team.  That averages out to 25.75. 

I'm not trying to bust balls here.

[Cire]

I want to be whatever villanova is.

[swish1]

BTW, by fringe, I just meant a team that, on average ends up around #25.  Some years they are better some years they are worse.

Villanova, for instance, has been kenpom's 54, 44, 4, 7, 19, 43, 14, 21 ranked team.  That averages out to 25.75. 

I'm not trying to bust balls here.

when did jay wright start at villanova?  villanova is like a wet dream at this point...

[nicname]

2001-2002   Villanova   19-13   7-9   5th           NIT Quarterfinals
2002-2003   Villanova   15-16   8-8   T-3rd   NIT Opening Round
2003-2004   Villanova   18-17   6-10   11th           NIT Quarterfinals
2004-2005   Villanova   24-8           11-5   T-3rd   NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2005-2006   Villanova   28-5           14-2   T-1st   NCAA Elite Eight
2006-2007   Villanova   22-11   9-7   7th           NCAA First Round
2007-2008   Villanova   22-13   9-9   T-8th   NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2008-2009   Villanova   30-8           13-5   4th           NCAA Final Four
2009-2010   Villanova   25-8           13-5   T-2nd   NCAA Second Round

Villanova:   203-98   90-60

   
   
   

[felix rex]

imo, this idea of "i just want the program to be a top 25-ish" is fantasty because it's unsustainable.  the ying and the yang of "averaging" to be a top 25-ish type team will lead the fan base wanting more.  Louisville is mentioned....Pitino is on the hot seat for doing exactly what is being described/wanted.   we'll get there with frank within 3 years, especially if this seaon keeps going the way it looks like it will.  "just make it to a decent bowl game" is nice in theory, but, imo, will not work.  

yeah, this is true.  it's just funny that half the kstate fans are already there.

To clarify, my letdown is not even close to a "frank is on the hot seat" level. I can easily readjust my expectations and be incredibly content with a top 25 (fringe or not) kind of program for a long time. nicname's breakdown is similar to _fan and I's expectations of the football team: 7/8 wins most seasons, with a season every 3-4 years where our recruiting classes line up just right and we make a run for the conference title and are a threat in the postseason, followed by a rebuilding year when that class graduates. I can live with that. I just let myself believe, for a short time, that we were more.

Also:

I want to be whatever villanova is.

[sys]

nicname's breakdown is similar to _fan and I's expectations of the football team: 7/8 wins most seasons, with a season every 3-4 years where our recruiting classes line up just right and we make a run for the conference title and are a threat in the postseason, followed by a rebuilding year when that class graduates.

no it isn't.