Author Topic: So what did this game tell us?  (Read 15769 times)

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Offline cork_sniffer

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Re: So what did this game tell us?
« Reply #75 on: November 24, 2010, 01:07:55 PM »
Kansas is not as good or as disciplined as Duke.  We turn the ball over less against Kansas and we force them into more turnovers.  We'll get open looks against Kansas, and our frontcourt is better/more deep than theirs.


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Offline kitten_mittons

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Re: So what did this game tell us?
« Reply #76 on: November 24, 2010, 01:10:50 PM »
Kansas is not as good or as disciplined as Duke.  We turn the ball over less against Kansas and we force them into more turnovers.  We'll get open looks against Kansas, and our frontcourt is better/more deep than theirs.


 :unfacepalm:

Offline MadCat

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Re: So what did this game tell us?
« Reply #77 on: November 24, 2010, 01:11:55 PM »
Kansas is not as good or as disciplined as Duke.  We turn the ball over less against Kansas and we force them into more turnovers.  We'll get open looks against Kansas, and our frontcourt is better/more deep than theirs.


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Offline EMAWzified

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Re: So what did this game tell us?
« Reply #78 on: November 24, 2010, 01:24:17 PM »
lollers at Kansas fans thinking their team =s Duke.

Offline kso_FAN

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Re: So what did this game tell us?
« Reply #79 on: November 24, 2010, 03:21:29 PM »
Some good (and bad) points in this thread.  I've got to chime in with a bit now that I've got some time to do so.

The first thing this game told me is that we way underestimated Irving.  I don't believe we thought he'd be able to do the things he did and finish consistently.  We knew our pressure was a) going to give up back-doors and b) give up drives b/c it always does, but it also forces teams to throw the ball out of bounds at times and generally get very frustrated offensively; see VaTech and Gonzaga.  We had a solid plan to limit Singer as much as we could and make someone else beat us, and once Irving and to a lesser extent Smith started getting by us, we had no answer.  I don't believe zacker (I believe) was way off base in suggesting a zone, but that hasn't been Frank's MO, so he probably wasn't comfortable doing that.  Plus Duke is probably better than anyone else at running offense with the floor spread as much as they did last night, that is something we probably won't see from anyone else really.

Pullen/McGruds is the new Pullen/Denis as far as offense goes.  The play of Kelly/Samuels was nice and necessary to play at a really high level, but Frank's teams still will need to have more from the lead guards.  Irving's production was nice and he's played well this year, but McGruds is showing the most ability to step in to make up for Denis IMHO.  Granted, he's a much, much different player; I'm solely talking scoring punch here, and its clear we need him to be the 12-15 point guy opposite Pullen for this team to be one of the best in the country and contend for the Big 12. 

Pullen's frustrations came first from the defensive end IMHO. You could see the body language start after the 4th or 5th time he got run by Irving.  I wasn't worried, b/c its not uncommon for Pullen to have slow starts scoring and even defensively, and I really thought after he finally hit a shot he would be good to go, but the frustration lasted the entire game.  The other thing that usually gets Pullen going is a run out with a lay up and FT, but he couldn't get that either.  Once he started forcing things (and failing) his frustration only grew leading to the silly TOs.  McGruds not stepping up when he had some very nice looks while this happened only compounded our problems.

Okay, I've got to go there.  FT% matters.  Before you get worked up, I'm only talking about making it to Martin team expectations; 65-68%.  Do that, and his system is fine, but we can't live with 50% and expect it not to cost us in big games.  Overall, our FT rate is still fine, not great, but it will get better.  And our defensive FT rate is bad, but we have played good teams with good guards.  Irving,

We've got plenty of guys that will get better, namely Sprads and Asprilla.  Sprads got introduced to real speed, but I think once he settled in he played okay.  Not great, but good enough, it was just his tough start (which was when Duke went on their initial run) really was costly.  And I can see that Asprilla does get it and can be an effective offensive player, he's just got to get more comfortable here.  With his experience, I think he equates much more adjustment-wise to a JUCO transfer b/c not only did he not play top notch competition in games, he also didn't see much in practice, unlike Kelly for example.  And those two need to get much better for this team to be one of the best in the country and win the league, which I think is still the expectations.

Overall it was a frustrating game b/c we simply couldn't make the run to get it to a 2-3 possession game.  Ugly TOs and missed shots were consistent and defensive pressure leading to stops wasn't.  We were hoping to be good enough to knock off #1, but we weren't.  But in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't change anything for this season.  We're still more than capable of winning this league and being a Final 4 team.  Granted, it will take adjustments and improvements based on the problems we had, but all those seem doable to me.  The fact that we've already pretty much destroyed two likely tournament teams should give us some confidence that we're still a pretty darn good team, in spite of at times looking silly against Duke.

Offline sys

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Re: So what did this game tell us?
« Reply #80 on: November 24, 2010, 03:33:48 PM »
I learned if 2 of your best back court players have really bad games offensively then its going to be really tough to win. Did Duke cause a lot of Jake and Rodney's problems? Yes, but they also just missed several shots they usually make.

mcgruder, yes.  pullen, no.  duke did an outstanding job of extending on pullen regardless of how far out he was, or if he was coming off a ball screen, an off ball screen or off the dribble.  even on recovery from a drive or garbage, they'd have someone running at him with length that clearly bothered him.  he had 2, maybe 3, decent looks, and he hit 1 of those.
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Offline kso_FAN

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Re: So what did this game tell us?
« Reply #81 on: November 24, 2010, 03:38:07 PM »
I learned if 2 of your best back court players have really bad games offensively then its going to be really tough to win. Did Duke cause a lot of Jake and Rodney's problems? Yes, but they also just missed several shots they usually make.

mcgruder, yes.  pullen, no.  duke did an outstanding job of extending on pullen regardless of how far out he was, or if he was coming off a ball screen, an off ball screen or off the dribble.  even on recovery from a drive or garbage, they'd have someone running at him with length that clearly bothered him.  he had 2, maybe 3, decent looks, and he hit 1 of those.

I don't disagree with this, most of Pullen's shots were contested.  But he usually hits some of those even when he's on.  McGruds had many good looks that he missed though.

Offline Winters

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Re: So what did this game tell us?
« Reply #82 on: November 24, 2010, 03:39:41 PM »
I like how after the duke win ESPN is talking about Coach K being the best coach on the planet  :emawkid:
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Offline sys

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Re: So what did this game tell us?
« Reply #83 on: November 24, 2010, 03:44:53 PM »
Yeah.  It's easy to forget we lost in similar fashion to an NIT team almost exactly a year ago.

this team is well ahead of last year's team at the same time.

it's a very different team, though, and perhaps one that may not play to what we think martin wants to do as well.  but, we'll see.  for all of martin's rhetoric, he played pretty different the beasley year.  he may be more adaptable than he likes to talk.

and, of course, the defense is going to improve, even with this personnel.  there aren't many guards that are going to get by pullen with the ease that irving (k.) did.  and when guards do get by, the help d by january isn't going to look anything like it did last night.  if the staff can get a team with fred brown and clemente pressuring outside with kent, colon and anderson stepping in on help to play like a top 50 defense, they can get this group to play light years better than they showed last night.


i like irving (m.) this year, which i'm very surprised at.  he still can't finish for crap.  but he can hit open 3s, and he can take a couple of dribbles and elevate if someone is running at him.  that's enough to be a decent big 12 guard.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2010, 03:48:02 PM by sys »
"a garden city man wondered in april if the theologians had not made a mistake in locating the garden of eden in asia rather than in the arkansas river valley."

Offline nicname

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Re: So what did this game tell us?
« Reply #84 on: November 24, 2010, 03:45:34 PM »
Great thread boys, some people  :flush: it up, but overall a very nice discussion.

Fan, you said you believe that we will need Rod to be our Denis for this season, scoring wise.  Do you not also believe that we will need Sprads and Irving to step up and takeover most of the PG minutes?  
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Offline sys

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Re: So what did this game tell us?
« Reply #85 on: November 24, 2010, 03:47:36 PM »
I don't disagree with this, most of Pullen's shots were contested.  But he usually hits some of those even when he's on.  McGruds had many good looks that he missed though.

yeah.  but i think that pullen was unused to having guys close on him with the speed and length that duke had.  he'd think he'd have time to shoot and then end up releasing higher than he planned cause there'd be someone there contesting.
"a garden city man wondered in april if the theologians had not made a mistake in locating the garden of eden in asia rather than in the arkansas river valley."

Offline kso_FAN

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Re: So what did this game tell us?
« Reply #86 on: November 24, 2010, 03:50:17 PM »
Great thread boys, some people  :flush: it up, but overall a very nice discussion.

Fan, you said you believe that we will need Rod to be our Denis for this season, scoring wise.  Do you not also believe that we will need Sprads and Irving to step up and takeover most of the PG minutes?  

Yes, it will be much better for this team if Sprads/Irving can get consistent minutes at the Pcombo with Jake at the Scombo.  I think they can, last night was a great learning experience for Spradling and Irving was more than solid. 

Offline nicname

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Re: So what did this game tell us?
« Reply #87 on: November 24, 2010, 03:50:53 PM »
Yeah.  It's easy to forget we lost in similar fashion to an NIT team almost exactly a year ago.

this team is well ahead of last year's team at the same time.

it's a very different team, though, and perhaps one that may not play to what we think martin want to do as well.  but, we'll see.  for all of martin's rhetoric, he played pretty different the beasley year.  he may be more adaptable than he likes to talk.

and, of course, the defense is going to improve, even with this personnel.  there aren't many guards that are going to get by pullen with the ease that irving (m.) did.  and when guards do get by, the help d by january isn't going to look anything like it did last night.  if the staff can get a team with fred brown and clemente pressuring outside with kent, colon and anderson stepping in on help to play like a top 50 defense, they can get this group to play light years better than they showed last night.

Regarding the help D situation.  Frank likes to pressure the ball and deny passing lanes.  Huggs did as well, but when you have teams that like to bring their bigs outside to free up space wouldn't it be wiser for the bigs to sag back while the guards and wings still apply pressure on the outside?  Nothing irked me more than to see Jason Bennett out defending some post 20 feet from the rim rendering completely useless.  It always seemed natural to have a safety valve if the initial pressure defense was breached.


i like irving (m.) this year, which i'm very surprised at.  he still can't finish for crap.  but he can hit open 3s, and he can take a couple of dribbles and elevate if someone is running at him.  that's enough to be a decent big 12 guard.
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Offline sys

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Re: So what did this game tell us?
« Reply #88 on: November 24, 2010, 03:52:19 PM »
spradling was better than duke's dca freshman pg.


 :emawkid: 

take that, curtis.
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Offline felix rex

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Re: So what did this game tell us?
« Reply #89 on: November 24, 2010, 04:10:58 PM »
I like when _fan explains why I'm not that upset.
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Offline Cartierfor3

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Re: So what did this game tell us?
« Reply #90 on: November 24, 2010, 04:16:10 PM »
_Fan is right about the free throws.  For us to REALLY JYC games up, we have to hit front ends etc.

Offline kso_FAN

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Re: So what did this game tell us?
« Reply #91 on: November 24, 2010, 04:24:18 PM »
_Fan is right about the free throws.  For us to REALLY JYC games up, we have to hit front ends etc.


All I'm asking for is 65%.  

Samuels (59%!), Russell (78) and Sprads (88) are all shooting well. (Yes, Samuels at 59% is good given his past)

Jake is subpar for him at 67.

Kelly and McGruder both at 40, terrible.  Asprilla at 29.  JHR at 22.  And Irving at 14%.  Ouch.

Its reasonable to expect improvment though.  Kelly was 67 last year.  McGruder was 72.  Irving was 67.  JHR even was 50.

So its really been a combination of a lot of players shooting much worse than expected based on what they've done in the past.  I've got to think sometime that will change, these things do tend to even out eventually.

« Last Edit: November 24, 2010, 04:26:26 PM by ksu_FAN »

Offline felix rex

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Re: So what did this game tell us?
« Reply #92 on: November 24, 2010, 04:29:10 PM »
14% is pretty lol.
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Offline sys

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Re: So what did this game tell us?
« Reply #93 on: November 24, 2010, 05:06:18 PM »
my mother was very upset about the ft shooting.


"if they can't shoot at least 80%, i don't think i need to waste my time watching them"
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Offline goldenticket

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Re: So what did this game tell us?
« Reply #94 on: November 24, 2010, 05:49:48 PM »
Even so, we really need to have either Spradling or Martavious step up and develope into a true B12 pg.  We will struggle with Jake leading the point, at least against the elite teams

totally agree pullen needs to be a 2 and one of those guys has to step up and be our point.

Okay, I've got to go there.  FT% matters.  Before you get worked up, I'm only talking about making it to Martin team expectations; 65-68%.  Do that, and his system is fine, but we can't live with 50% and expect it not to cost us in big games.  Overall, our FT rate is still fine, not great, but it will get better.  And our defensive FT rate is bad, but we have played good teams with good guards.  Irving,

yeah hopefully that happens

was hoping asprilla would be better offensively but again it still early. ck seemed to have trouble passing out of the double team but that can be improved. and if we play them again hopefully pullen has a great game

i think right now k-state is an elite eight level squad but not yet final four level. but we can improve and our depth will be an advantage against almost every team we face. duke is just flat out a better team then we are but its early in the year and we can get it together.


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Re: So what did this game tell us?
« Reply #95 on: November 24, 2010, 05:54:17 PM »
Some good (and bad) points in this thread.  I've got to chime in with a bit now that I've got some time to do so.

The first thing this game told me is that we way underestimated Irving.  I don't believe we thought he'd be able to do the things he did and finish consistently.  We knew our pressure was a) going to give up back-doors and b) give up drives b/c it always does, but it also forces teams to throw the ball out of bounds at times and generally get very frustrated offensively; see VaTech and Gonzaga.  We had a solid plan to limit Singer as much as we could and make someone else beat us, and once Irving and to a lesser extent Smith started getting by us, we had no answer.  I don't believe zacker (I believe) was way off base in suggesting a zone, but that hasn't been Frank's MO, so he probably wasn't comfortable doing that.  Plus Duke is probably better than anyone else at running offense with the floor spread as much as they did last night, that is something we probably won't see from anyone else really.


it's not so much a zone, rather something different.  I don't know what that would look like.  And this (this meaning our guards getting destroyed) happens on occassion (usually when we lose) so I would think he'd have something in his binder to counter. i mean, bill f'ing self went to a T&2 against us the last 2 years....the freaking university of kansas went to a T&2 because they couldn't handle kansas state.  frank should have something by now.

Offline StayOutOfTrees

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Re: So what did this game tell us?
« Reply #96 on: November 25, 2010, 01:08:58 AM »
This game told us we are definitely not the #1 team in the nation right now.

Offline kstatefreak42

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Re: So what did this game tell us?
« Reply #97 on: November 25, 2010, 03:11:39 PM »
This game told us we are definitely not the #1 team in the nation right now.
good call.
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Offline JD Thundercat

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Re: So what did this game tell us?
« Reply #98 on: November 25, 2010, 06:05:36 PM »
This game told us we are definitely not the #1 team in the nation right now.

That's about all I got out of it too... that and we'll have trouble winning games if Jake is off his game and no other guard steps up and goes off for 15-20+ points when we play a legit title contender.

Offline kougar24

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Re: So what did this game tell us?
« Reply #99 on: November 25, 2010, 10:24:58 PM »
this is how we're going to look when we play kansas.   

Pft, Kansas is no Duke. Kansas has the opposite of depth in the backcourt.