Author Topic: CHIEFS  (Read 1481757 times)

0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline j rake

  • Katpak'r
  • ***
  • Posts: 2542
    • View Profile
    • @j_rake
Re: CHIEFS
« Reply #16600 on: January 21, 2019, 09:34:05 PM »
***LONG POST ALERT***  :frown:

so today, mellinger wrote another column calling for the firing of bob sutton: https://www.kansascity.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/sam-mellinger/article224870295.html

i agree that it's probably time to make a change, but mellinger's arguments are weak, lazy, misleading and oversimplified. he also doesn't suggest a replacement for sutton (or explain why a new DC would do better); he doesn't diagnose why the failings are taking place; and he also doesn't put the defense's performance in proper context.

let's look at some of mellinger's central arguments in the column:

Quote
Somehow the Chiefs were even worse in 2018. They finished 31st in defense, 30th in Football Outsiders’ catch-all DVOA measurement, 31st in passing yards surrendered and 31st in average yards per rush.

first, DVOA is a solid model, but like everything has its flaws. among them is the fact that not all teams are trying to accomplish the same things in particular situations. for example, Team A with a 14-point 3rd quarter lead might maintain an aggressive defensive style and play straight up; while Team B with the same lead might shift to prevent defense. Team B, which perhaps values taking time off the clock more than conceding yards, is likely to fare worse using this metric.

second, if mellinger is aware of DVOA, then he is surely aware of what's called weighted DVOA. weighted DVOA lowers the importance of early-season games and is a better representation of how a unit is performing right now. the chiefs were 16th in weighted DVOA entering the Pats game, which was exactly league average.

finally, mellinger performs a bit of sleight of hand when presenting passing yards as "yards surrendered" and rushing yards as "yards per rush." why does he do it this way? because he knows the chiefs' pass defense held up well on a per-play basis, where they gave up 7.5 yards per pass attempt, which ranks 16th (league average) and is just 0.4 yards away from being a top-10 pass defense. the chiefs surrendered a ton of passing yards because they were frequently leading opponents by a ton of points, and thus teams were forced into passing.

Quote
They lost five games this season, with opponents scoring an average of 40.2 points in those games.

again, this is misleading.

the chiefs gave up 37 pts to the pats in the playoff game, and then in the regular season gave up 43 pts to the pats, 54 to the rams, 29 to the chargers and 38 to the seahawks.

in reality, the chiefs allowed 31 pts (in regulation) in the playoff game. they gave up 36 pts in the regular season loss to the pats (mahomes' turnover set NE up at the chiefs 4-yard line). they gave up 40 to the rams (there were two defensive scores). and then they gave up true-to-score outcomes vs the chargers and seahawks. it still isn't good, but the chiefs allowed 34.8 points per game in these five games against four opponents that all averaged between 27-33 pts per game. the pats, rams, chargers and seahawks were the 2nd, 3rd, 5th and 9th best offenses in the league. in other words, we shouldn't be surprised by these results. these teams scored on everyone!

Quote
The Chiefs gave up more first downs than any team in NFL history during the regular season, and then 36 more in Sunday’s playoff loss. Going back to 1940, only eight teams have ever given up more first downs in a game. Only nine teams have surrendered more yards in a season.

recent offenses are setting all kinds of records - first downs, points scored, yards gained, etc. this is driven primarily by the style of football being played, and secondarily by rules changes in recent years. telling us that "going back to 1940, only eight teams have ever given up more first downs in a game" is stupid. teams in 1940 averaged 15 points per game and the league avg for first downs was 11.5 (compared to the current average of 20.4 first downs and 23 pts). the 2018 chiefs defense, in part because the offense often scored quickly, faced a ton of plays and a ton of non-competitive plays at that. it's no surprise that teams would rack up yardage on them, particularly late in games when they're in hurry-up mode trying to pass their way to a comeback.

Quote
There can’t be many units in the league that underperformed their talent and context worse than the Chiefs’ defense. The offense was a rocket ship, especially early, which meant the defense was often playing with the lead in obvious passing situations.

this is a nonsense argument. the chiefs kicked off first way more than they received. in fact, they deferred the first nine games of the year. if the chiefs' rocket ship offense was playing with leads, then the only way to get leads is to have the defense get early stops. it is simply impossible to build big leads if the defense is giving up touchdowns every possession.

that begs the question: how did the chiefs' defense perform early?

well, turns out quite well! the chiefs defense allowed an average of 3.5 points in the 1st quarter this year, which ranked 5th in the league. they were much worse in the 2nd quarter (8.1 pts, 24th), but the overall net put them at solidly average (16th in first-half points allowed). the chiefs' average halftime lead this year was 18-11, and overwhelmingly, they got ball first in the 2nd half to build on the lead.

Quote
The rub is that by protecting Sutton, Reid has opened him to more criticism. Sutton is not a bad coach. From 2013 to 2016, he led defenses that finished no worse than seventh in points allowed and twice finished seventh in yards allowed.

from here, mellinger actually acknowledges that sutton has done some nice things in the past. which he has. and then mellinger acknowledges that sutton's talent hasn't been great the last few years (thus drafting all defense this past year), and we all know he's been held hostage by reoccurring injuries/departures to key players (ford, houston, berry the last few years, on top of sorensen's injury, peters' departure, etc.)

it is worth noting that the chiefs' defense was actually better than these numbers, or any numbers, suggest. they played a hard offensive schedule this year. the chiefs played nine of their 18 games against offenses that ranked #2, #3, #3, #4, #4, #5, #6, #8, and #9. by comparison, the colts defense played just three above average offenses the entire year and played five games against the bottom 5.

i honestly think some of the chiefs' bad numbers are a result of them playing good offenses, and being passive with big leads. before this year, sutton was never a coach that couldn't make in-game adjustments. his defenses allowed the fewest fourth-quarter points in the league in 2013, and they were 4th, 7th and 7th in 4th-quarter points allowed in the three years that followed. these past two years, with the chiefs offense often building big leads, is the first time we've seen poor late-game defense.

the pats game was disappointing, and the defense was horrible (i considered the 1st half defense to be a disaster despite only giving up 14 points; we all know it should have been 21 points on just four drives). but lots of teams, including the chargers a week earlier, are going to fall short against the best quarterback we've ever seen.

one more:

Quote
Perhaps most tellingly, the inside linebackers underperformed. You can give Chiefs general manager Brett Veach some of the blame here, but Anthony Hitchens was a good player in Dallas. He has a diverse skill-set and balanced game that should’ve translated well to a new system. Instead, he was ineffective.

is it possible that the positional coaches stink? we've seen doug pederson and matt nagy move on to head coaching jobs, and eric bienemy was a well regarded RBs coach who is now a highly praised coordinator. brad childress (previously on staff), mike kafka and andy heck are other offensive coaches who have gotten praise. but you rarely hear much about the defensive coaches. reid's own son coaches the defensive line, and the two linebackers coaches - mark deleone and mike smith - i never hear anything about. maybe they're ineffective? maybe they're not offering competent mid-game assistance to sutton, in the same way that belichick's offensive staff was improvising to figure out the chiefs' D?

there's plenty of questions for andy to address in the next few weeks. maybe he will move on from sutton, maybe he won't. but i don't think there's any guarantee the next guy will be better, and i don't think a defensive turnaround under sutton is impossible with a few roster tweaks and a bit more stability.

Offline Rage Against the McKee

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 37086
    • View Profile
Re: CHIEFS
« Reply #16601 on: January 21, 2019, 09:35:27 PM »
Holy crap that is a long post.

Offline j rake

  • Katpak'r
  • ***
  • Posts: 2542
    • View Profile
    • @j_rake
Re: CHIEFS
« Reply #16602 on: January 21, 2019, 09:58:27 PM »
Holy crap that is a long post.

i aspire to be the d scott of forums. :sdeek:

Online star seed 7

  • hyperactive on the :lol:
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 63987
  • good dog
    • View Profile
Re: CHIEFS
« Reply #16603 on: January 21, 2019, 10:05:03 PM »
I enjoyed reading it
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline Spracne

  • Point Plank'r
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *
  • Posts: 21340
  • Scholar/Gentleman, But Super Earthy/Organic
    • View Profile
Re: CHIEFS
« Reply #16604 on: January 21, 2019, 10:06:36 PM »
Like j rake, but no.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


Offline pissclams

  • Global Moderator
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 46463
  • (worst non-premium poster at goEMAW.com)
    • View Profile
Re: CHIEFS
« Reply #16605 on: January 22, 2019, 09:01:18 AM »
i’m pro roster tweak but it seemed like tony romo was doing a good job highlighting the problems with sutton’s play calling, especially on 3rd downs sunday

essentially saying sutton was doing it wrong


Cheesy Mustache QB might make an appearance.

New warning: Don't get in a fight with someone who doesn't even need to bother to buy ink.

Offline 420seriouscat69

  • Don't get zapped! #zap
  • Wackycat
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 63922
  • #1 rated - gE NFL Scout
    • View Profile
Re: CHIEFS
« Reply #16606 on: January 22, 2019, 09:05:12 AM »

Offline mocat

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 39131
    • View Profile
Re: CHIEFS
« Reply #16607 on: January 22, 2019, 09:54:20 AM »
j rake i enjoy your writing.

using the chiefs' difficult schedule as a defense (lol) of bob sutton is laughable. guess what everybody the chiefs are going to be playing great offenses every year. that's what happens when you win the division every year; you play the other division winners.

i agree defensive records are getting broken all over the place. the chiefs have gotten worse relative to the rest of the league (not just relative to previous years) every year.

bottom line j rake, should the chiefs keep bob sutton, or bring in a new voice to rethink the scheme?

Offline j rake

  • Katpak'r
  • ***
  • Posts: 2542
    • View Profile
    • @j_rake
Re: CHIEFS
« Reply #16608 on: January 22, 2019, 10:14:40 AM »
j rake i enjoy your writing.

using the chiefs' difficult schedule as a defense (lol) of bob sutton is laughable. guess what everybody the chiefs are going to be playing great offenses every year. that's what happens when you win the division every year; you play the other division winners.

i agree defensive records are getting broken all over the place. the chiefs have gotten worse relative to the rest of the league (not just relative to previous years) every year.

bottom line j rake, should the chiefs keep bob sutton, or bring in a new voice to rethink the scheme?

most of the stats you see being used against sutton are largely unadjusted counting stats that do not provide proper context. nearly 1/3rd of the league faced overwhelmingly average to below average offenses. those defenses naturally are going to perform better than a chiefs defense that literally played 40 percent of its games against top-6 level offenses. also, the advanced metrics demonstrate that the chiefs defense improved to roughly average by season's end, which isn't bad. (and i could go game-by-game and show you eight of them where the final box score stats are misleading.)

the chiefs came into this season knowing that their defensive roster was not up to par. that's why they drafted entirely defense. many of those picks did not pan out. there's been some big misses in recent years, too. and then of course you have eric berry and justin houston who have alternately held the chiefs hostage with injuries the last two years. houston and berry accounted for nearly 1/5th of the chiefs' cap space for 2018.

i am definitely not advocating the chiefs bring sutton back. but i don't think another coordinator will definitely perform better. i am of the belief that the chiefs should employ a boom-or-bust defensive strategy where their singular goal is to get off the field as quickly as possible. either force a 3-and-out, turn the other team over, or just give up the score. allowing teams to control ball with 15-play drives that also end up in touchdowns is disastrous. it keeps the offense badly out of rhythm and fewer possessions means fewer plays, which is not good when you have a record setting offense.

also, just to repeat myself, i think it's possible that the defensive coaching staff at large is inadequate. i could be mistaken, but i can think of few if any chiefs defensive coaches that have been considered by another team, either as a position coach or coordinator. 

Offline ChiComCat

  • Chawbacon
  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 17576
    • View Profile
Re: CHIEFS
« Reply #16609 on: January 22, 2019, 10:28:15 AM »
If you are even on the fence about Sutton, he really needs to go due to the roster decisions on defense that need to be made this year.  He can't be a part of deciding on the cap space we have to commit to Ford, Houston, or possibly Berry when we may not be running his scheme next year.  If they decide "one more year" with Bob, it could set us back even further.

Also, Hitchens was a terrible signing.  We paid him like a top 5 ILB.  Big waste of cap space at a position that can be relatively cheap. 

Offline ChiComCat

  • Chawbacon
  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 17576
    • View Profile
Re: CHIEFS
« Reply #16610 on: January 22, 2019, 10:28:40 AM »
If you are even on the fence about Sutton, he really needs to go due to the roster decisions on defense that need to be made this year.  He can't be a part of deciding on the cap space we have to commit to Ford, Houston, or possibly Berry when we may not be running his scheme after next year.  If they decide "one more year" with Bob, it could set us back even further.

Also, Hitchens was a terrible signing.  We paid him like a top 5 ILB.  Big waste of cap space at a position that can be relatively cheap. 

Offline Cartierfor3

  • Fattyfest Champion
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 27090
  • I just want us all to be buds.
    • View Profile
Re: CHIEFS
« Reply #16611 on: January 22, 2019, 10:59:37 AM »
Guys, I have a lot to say. I will be in here quite a bit the next few days before I transition into combo-fanning season.

First is this. I was at the game with my oldest boy* on Sunday. That is the most exciting in person football game I've ever seen. It was really sad to lose, but I was fine like 15 minutes after the game. Probably maturity and having kids and all that helps me not get my emotions tied to a game. Of course I really wanted the Chiefs to win for the city, for Andy, the Hunts, etc etc etc but I didn't really get too sad or mad. After 2014 Game 7, after the Baylor 2012 game, after losing to Butler and Wisconsin in the Jacob years, I let sports make me emotional in ways I don't like.

And yes, the game was a heartbreaker. But what a game. J-Rake said it earlier referencing the Dante Hall return in 2003 being such an awesome moment, he nailed it. To me, one sequence will always stand out in this game. The punt muff review- interception - screen pass touchdown. That was incredible and such a moment of energy in the stadium. In a way that interception felt the same way in felt watching the Giants outfield kick the ball around and all of a sudden Alex Gordon is standing on 3rd. It was like, no, we're not being denied. I mean as soon as the ball left Patrick's hand on that screen, my eyes looked and you knew it was wide open to the end zone. We were ahead and on our way and we went nuts. And sure they lost, but I was there with my boy in the cold and we had such a time.

I do want to discuss all the plays, coaching changes, and all of it. But I wanted to at least pause for a moment and enjoy the contest we saw, the energy of the fans, and how fun it was.


*No issues with fans. I talked to the kid earlier about how there will be fans saying bad words (he goes to public school, he knows the bad words) and of course there were, but overall it was fine. Didn't seem like anyone around us was drunk or anything, or at least drunk enough that it was an issue. I was a little nervous to let him experience Camerohead but it was great. Even the NE fans around us were treated ok. I'm sure that wasn't the case all over the stadium, but it was around us.

Offline j rake

  • Katpak'r
  • ***
  • Posts: 2542
    • View Profile
    • @j_rake
Re: CHIEFS
« Reply #16612 on: January 22, 2019, 11:01:53 AM »
If you are even on the fence about Sutton, he really needs to go due to the roster decisions on defense that need to be made this year.  He can't be a part of deciding on the cap space we have to commit to Ford, Houston, or possibly Berry when we may not be running his scheme next year.  If they decide "one more year" with Bob, it could set us back even further.

Also, Hitchens was a terrible signing.  We paid him like a top 5 ILB.  Big waste of cap space at a position that can be relatively cheap.

i'd be curious to know who people identify as the top replacement. i can go up and down the list of former coordinators who became head coaches who then got fired and become coordinators, who then failed as coordinators, who then languished around as a position coach before drifting off to obscurity. turns out, the star coordinator who became the sexy head coaching candidate was never even that good of a coordinator! many times, they just rode the wave of short-term success, took credit for achievement they weren't solely responsible for, and then got figured out.

we saw it first-hand with gunther, who was widely viewed as an excellent coordinator as he rode an amazingly talented defensive unit, along with the brilliance of defense-first marty, to local praise. then he flamed out as head coach, returned as coordinator five years later, and never recaptured the same success. then he went to the lions, where he also failed to meet expectations.

we saw it with todd haley, the brilliant OC who is brilliant only when paired with future Hall of Fame QBs, but not near as brilliant when he is not. i doubt he'll even be a coordinator in 2019.

i could just go on and on. all these coaches get recycled, disposed of, reused, and then get new opportunity elsewhere. when they succeed, they've rediscovered their old magic (!), when often they just have good players. and when they fail, they've lost their way, their schemes no longer work, they must go, they're a moron, and so on.

andy, above all else, wants to win a super bowl. he has always put together a good coaching staff, and has often been self aware enough to admit when something isn't going to work out. he twice fired coordinators in philadelphia, sean mcdermott (now coach of the bills) and juan castillo. he might also decide to fire sutton. who knows, ya know?
« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 11:06:33 AM by j rake »

Offline bucket

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 9553
    • View Profile
Re: CHIEFS
« Reply #16613 on: January 22, 2019, 11:45:48 AM »
Mellinger pisses me off quite a bit

Offline Cartierfor3

  • Fattyfest Champion
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 27090
  • I just want us all to be buds.
    • View Profile
Re: CHIEFS
« Reply #16614 on: January 22, 2019, 01:15:12 PM »
I have been against instant replay reviews in baseball from the start. I love baseball and even I can admit its kinda boring, no need to slow it down even more. I'm against it now in football too. I'm still unsatisfied after reviews, and it is such a time suck during games. Make the call, stick with it, and lets keep playing. Sunday the reviews took forever and I'm still unconvinced they were right. Just play sheesh.

Offline kitten_mittons

  • PCKK7DC Survivor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *******
  • Posts: 4584
  • Clawing at your furnitures.
    • View Profile
Re: CHIEFS
« Reply #16615 on: January 22, 2019, 01:15:53 PM »


Here is a good clip of that Edelman muff that was overturned.  Each angle looks like it touches a different part of his body, but the other angles clearly rule out each possible touch.  Probably the best/most comprehensive replay angles I've ever seen.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk


Online star seed 7

  • hyperactive on the :lol:
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 63987
  • good dog
    • View Profile
Re: CHIEFS
« Reply #16616 on: January 22, 2019, 01:18:42 PM »
I have been against instant replay reviews in baseball from the start. I love baseball and even I can admit its kinda boring, no need to slow it down even more. I'm against it now in football too. I'm still unsatisfied after reviews, and it is such a time suck during games. Make the call, stick with it, and lets keep playing. Sunday the reviews took forever and I'm still unconvinced they were right. Just play sheesh.

NFL handles it well enough imo. College is rough ridin' atrocious. Both call way too many penalties, it's getting to almost be as bad as college basketball having a foul called every other possession.
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline Spracne

  • Point Plank'r
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *
  • Posts: 21340
  • Scholar/Gentleman, But Super Earthy/Organic
    • View Profile
Re: CHIEFS
« Reply #16617 on: January 22, 2019, 01:25:18 PM »
I have been against instant replay reviews in baseball from the start. I love baseball and even I can admit its kinda boring, no need to slow it down even more. I'm against it now in football too. I'm still unsatisfied after reviews, and it is such a time suck during games. Make the call, stick with it, and lets keep playing. Sunday the reviews took forever and I'm still unconvinced they were right. Just play sheesh.
Maybe it's already been discussed here, but apparently the NFL is looking into the possibility of reviewing PI calls, as if the games don't already take long enough. I guess I might be OK with it if the proposal only applied to playoff games. Maybe test it in the preseason first. Idk.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


Offline Cartierfor3

  • Fattyfest Champion
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 27090
  • I just want us all to be buds.
    • View Profile
Re: CHIEFS
« Reply #16618 on: January 22, 2019, 01:41:36 PM »
I have been against instant replay reviews in baseball from the start. I love baseball and even I can admit its kinda boring, no need to slow it down even more. I'm against it now in football too. I'm still unsatisfied after reviews, and it is such a time suck during games. Make the call, stick with it, and lets keep playing. Sunday the reviews took forever and I'm still unconvinced they were right. Just play sheesh.
Maybe it's already been discussed here, but apparently the NFL is looking into the possibility of reviewing PI calls, as if the games don't already take long enough. I guess I might be OK with it if the proposal only applied to playoff games. Maybe test it in the preseason first. Idk.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

The NFL making a rule change because of 1 horrendous blown call in the playoffs will have a ton of unintended consequences and will make the sport worse. JMHO

Offline Cartierfor3

  • Fattyfest Champion
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 27090
  • I just want us all to be buds.
    • View Profile
Re: CHIEFS
« Reply #16619 on: January 22, 2019, 01:43:19 PM »


Here is a good clip of that Edelman muff that was overturned.  Each angle looks like it touches a different part of his body, but the other angles clearly rule out each possible touch.  Probably the best/most comprehensive replay angles I've ever seen.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk

I don't care if it didn't graze his thumb. It was close enough that the ref made the call. Reviewing plays for 8 minutes to dissect a 1/8th of an inch space between the ball and his thumb is annoying and dumb. Super slow mo high def replays aren't making things clearer. JMHO

Offline 420seriouscat69

  • Don't get zapped! #zap
  • Wackycat
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 63922
  • #1 rated - gE NFL Scout
    • View Profile
Re: CHIEFS
« Reply #16620 on: January 22, 2019, 01:45:44 PM »
SUTTON. GONE!  :driving:

Offline kitten_mittons

  • PCKK7DC Survivor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *******
  • Posts: 4584
  • Clawing at your furnitures.
    • View Profile
Re: CHIEFS
« Reply #16621 on: January 22, 2019, 01:48:40 PM »
I would rather them take an extra couple minutes and get the call right.  What point is it to look at it for 2 minutes and still get it wrong?

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk


Offline 420seriouscat69

  • Don't get zapped! #zap
  • Wackycat
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 63922
  • #1 rated - gE NFL Scout
    • View Profile
Re: CHIEFS
« Reply #16622 on: January 22, 2019, 01:48:52 PM »

Offline Cartierfor3

  • Fattyfest Champion
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 27090
  • I just want us all to be buds.
    • View Profile
Re: CHIEFS
« Reply #16623 on: January 22, 2019, 01:51:37 PM »
People keep imagining the Saints no-call as what will be fixed by PI review on instant replay. It won't be obvious calls like that. It will be every little questionable contact and it will take a billion years.

Oh and hey saints, you were at home, and you WON your stupid overtime coin toss. You still should've won smh.

Offline Cartierfor3

  • Fattyfest Champion
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 27090
  • I just want us all to be buds.
    • View Profile
Re: CHIEFS
« Reply #16624 on: January 22, 2019, 01:52:36 PM »
I would rather them take an extra couple minutes and get the call right.  What point is it to look at it for 2 minutes and still get it wrong?

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk

beats me but they did it on the Hogan catch.