Author Topic: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)  (Read 2799 times)

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Offline Spracne

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Offline cfbandyman

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Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #26 on: November 07, 2024, 02:49:55 PM »
I think there are a couple of different things at play here. First and foremost - and i'm having a hard time accepting this one but i'm not sure how else to square it -- i think that a large percentage of our population are just the necessary amount of racist/homophobic/xenophobic/whateverophobic that it actually has become a plurality of what is important to them when they go to vote.

and right about here would be the part where someone like _33 is going to come in and say "oh so voting R makes me a homophobe? got it." so I'm going to explain what i mean.

I think there are a large amount of perfectly decent, polite, upstanding people who think homosexuality, or being transexual, is icky and they would just prefer to not have to deal with it in any way shape or form. Does finding something icky automatically make you a transphobe? No, of course not. Just because I don't like onions doesn't make me anti-vegetable or mean i want to ban all onions. But its not socially acceptable to say that part out loud. So then its like huh well in terms of policy most of it really isn't going to affect me one way or the other whether its an R or a D in power (it actually probably will but i'm too sure of myself to bother checking), but the R will actively fight to make sure that <the thing i find scary or icky>  is outlawed or at the very least not welcomed or encouraged and its okay to be discouraging of it. And then at that point its just a matter of finding An Incident to justify this incredibly valid stance. An undocumented migrant kills a US citizen. A girl doesn't make the swim team because a trans person amab made the team and took their spot. Does it matter than the number of instances this happens is statistically irrelevant? Does it make any kind of sense to base your voting on something that (directly) affects like 0.0075% of the population? No. because i don't like things that i find scary or don't understand and i want it to be okay for me to say it without fear of being ostricized.

If there is a better explanation I would love to know what it is, because i don't like the thought of the general public being juuuuuust X-phobic enough that they are going to vote for policy making that scary thing go away, even if it means 99% of every other policy is going to be very demonstrably against their own interests. But if that is indeed the case here, then like well folks...a facist dictator is apparently what we want. I am in the minority apparently, but if the majority of We The People want a facist then it would be very ironic for me to get upset when we make policy that reflects the will of the many over the will of the few.

You're pretty close to what I think about it but looking at it a from a different angle, which is good to see. I think the play is less specifically trying to do the ban on certain people, but more using the 'ick" feeling to drive that engagement to a fever pitch. As you said in general most of these people aren't really bad, nor most these people even want a ban or whatever or could again care less when brought down from a frenzy, I think it's bacon bits to a foundation of using people's fear they can't make ends meet, and the small whateverophobic part is a focus of that unease, and then casting that unease to be the dems are the ones progressing this unease, they are making you feel this way, and we will make you feel comfortable again by removing that problem, amongst others.

It's definitely can take a fascist slant, and I no doubt many would be ok with that. But it's like they already know this group is hurting financially, and people who are usually in distress are families cause kids are expensive AF, and many families are traditional so why not say it's destroying them, or that it could be their daughter not making the team. You already got their attention with a bad economy and an alternative to that, why not throw in other things that you already are uneasy or could be made uneasy about.

To me still, if you had a healthy, thriving middle class and strong economy and no inflation, and trump came along talking about border walls and banning transgender people, you'd get some support, but it would not move the needle, cause now he's trying to cobble together a small group of people who are passionate yes, but ultimately unaffected by it.
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Offline catastrophe

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Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2024, 05:00:12 PM »
https://www.instagram.com/anthonyblogan/reel/CvstLl1RSi-/
This could be a plant for all I know but the point is a valid one. No one is immune to bigotry and a lot of the time their feelings come down to a gross oversimplification of who they perceive a given group to be.

I know a lot of people who perceive a “Christian” to be a Ben Shapiro type or even Trump brandishing a Bible for a photo op. They really are about as ignorant of what it means as many people seem to think about kids that go to school and get a surprise sex change.

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Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #28 on: November 07, 2024, 05:17:46 PM »
I think there's probably a tough balance to strike for both parties.  I imagine there's probably a sweet spot somewhere for the left where they don't completely alienate the lgbt community while maintaining the more centrist/"normie" groups.  Where exactly that line is, i don't know. 

I think the right probably has a similar problem with the pro-lifer types (ahem) and how far to the left they can get on the abortion issue (to grab some of that meaty center of the electorate) before they scare off the hardcore pro-lifers into voting for the american solidarity party or whatever. 

As I think about it, this same thing probably exists for like, dozens of platform issues on either side.  I'm leaving my post up even though everything i'm saying is completely obvious and none of it has any substantive value.


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Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2024, 05:23:08 PM »
https://www.instagram.com/anthonyblogan/reel/CvstLl1RSi-/
This could be a plant for all I know but the point is a valid one. No one is immune to bigotry and a lot of the time their feelings come down to a gross oversimplification of who they perceive a given group to be.

I know a lot of people who perceive a “Christian” to be a Ben Shapiro type or even Trump brandishing a Bible for a photo op. They really are about as ignorant of what it means as many people seem to think about kids that go to school and get a surprise sex change.

In my experience, generally the further a church is distanced from Apostlic succession, the likelier it is to veer into problematic expressions of the Faith; including affirmation and condemnation of sin/sinners.
If there was a gif of nicname thwarting the attempted-flag-taker and then gesturing him to suck it, followed by motioning for all of Hilton Shelter to boo him louder, it'd be better than that auburn gif.

Offline steve dave

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Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #30 on: November 07, 2024, 05:31:47 PM »
https://www.instagram.com/anthonyblogan/reel/CvstLl1RSi-/
This could be a plant for all I know but the point is a valid one. No one is immune to bigotry and a lot of the time their feelings come down to a gross oversimplification of who they perceive a given group to be.

I know a lot of people who perceive a “Christian” to be a Ben Shapiro type or even Trump brandishing a Bible for a photo op. They really are about as ignorant of what it means as many people seem to think about kids that go to school and get a surprise sex change.

In my experience, generally the further a church is distanced from Apostlic succession, the likelier it is to veer into problematic expressions of the Faith; including affirmation and condemnation of sin/sinners.

ben shapiro is jewish but that doesn't matter in this instance.

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Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #31 on: November 07, 2024, 05:43:33 PM »
https://www.instagram.com/anthonyblogan/reel/CvstLl1RSi-/
This could be a plant for all I know but the point is a valid one. No one is immune to bigotry and a lot of the time their feelings come down to a gross oversimplification of who they perceive a given group to be.

I know a lot of people who perceive a “Christian” to be a Ben Shapiro type or even Trump brandishing a Bible for a photo op. They really are about as ignorant of what it means as many people seem to think about kids that go to school and get a surprise sex change.

In my experience, generally the further a church is distanced from Apostlic succession, the likelier it is to veer into problematic expressions of the Faith; including affirmation and condemnation of sin/sinners.

ben shapiro is jewish but that doesn't matter in this instance.

What general flavor of Christianity would you most closely approximate Orthodox Judaism to?
If there was a gif of nicname thwarting the attempted-flag-taker and then gesturing him to suck it, followed by motioning for all of Hilton Shelter to boo him louder, it'd be better than that auburn gif.

Offline catastrophe

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Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #32 on: November 07, 2024, 06:03:24 PM »
https://www.instagram.com/anthonyblogan/reel/CvstLl1RSi-/
This could be a plant for all I know but the point is a valid one. No one is immune to bigotry and a lot of the time their feelings come down to a gross oversimplification of who they perceive a given group to be.

I know a lot of people who perceive a “Christian” to be a Ben Shapiro type or even Trump brandishing a Bible for a photo op. They really are about as ignorant of what it means as many people seem to think about kids that go to school and get a surprise sex change.

In my experience, generally the further a church is distanced from Apostlic succession, the likelier it is to veer into problematic expressions of the Faith; including affirmation and condemnation of sin/sinners.

ben shapiro is jewish but that doesn't matter in this instance.
I literally had no idea

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Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #33 on: November 07, 2024, 06:08:09 PM »
https://www.instagram.com/anthonyblogan/reel/CvstLl1RSi-/
This could be a plant for all I know but the point is a valid one. No one is immune to bigotry and a lot of the time their feelings come down to a gross oversimplification of who they perceive a given group to be.

I know a lot of people who perceive a “Christian” to be a Ben Shapiro type or even Trump brandishing a Bible for a photo op. They really are about as ignorant of what it means as many people seem to think about kids that go to school and get a surprise sex change.

In my experience, generally the further a church is distanced from Apostlic succession, the likelier it is to veer into problematic expressions of the Faith; including affirmation and condemnation of sin/sinners.

ben shapiro is jewish but that doesn't matter in this instance.
I literally had no idea

lol, I kind of grunched the earlier Shapiro mention.
If there was a gif of nicname thwarting the attempted-flag-taker and then gesturing him to suck it, followed by motioning for all of Hilton Shelter to boo him louder, it'd be better than that auburn gif.

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Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #34 on: November 07, 2024, 06:08:42 PM »
I think there's probably a tough balance to strike for both parties.  I imagine there's probably a sweet spot somewhere for the left where they don't completely alienate the lgbt community while maintaining the more centrist/"normie" groups.  Where exactly that line is, i don't know. 

I think the right probably has a similar problem with the pro-lifer types (ahem) and how far to the left they can get on the abortion issue (to grab some of that meaty center of the electorate) before they scare off the hardcore pro-lifers into voting for the american solidarity party or whatever. 

As I think about it, this same thing probably exists for like, dozens of platform issues on either side.  I'm leaving my post up even though everything i'm saying is completely obvious and none of it has any substantive value.

I think your thoughts on abortion are interesting (and useful!). But I don't think there's much pressure from the right to do more than what has been done. Trump said he'd veto national abortion bans and it was the best Republican result in decades

Offline Spracne

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Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #35 on: November 07, 2024, 06:14:32 PM »
https://www.instagram.com/anthonyblogan/reel/CvstLl1RSi-/
This could be a plant for all I know but the point is a valid one. No one is immune to bigotry and a lot of the time their feelings come down to a gross oversimplification of who they perceive a given group to be.

I know a lot of people who perceive a “Christian” to be a Ben Shapiro type or even Trump brandishing a Bible for a photo op. They really are about as ignorant of what it means as many people seem to think about kids that go to school and get a surprise sex change.

In my experience, generally the further a church is distanced from Apostlic succession, the likelier it is to veer into problematic expressions of the Faith; including affirmation and condemnation of sin/sinners.

ben shapiro is jewish but that doesn't matter in this instance.

What general flavor of Christianity would you most closely approximate Orthodox Judaism to?

Lutherans minus Jesus.

And I don't really know what you mean by "Apostlic succession," "problematic expressions of the Faith," or "affirmation and condemnation of sin/sinners," but I submit that the fact we are using phrases like that in this thread is problematic in itself. Kinda weird how yla snuck a little Christian persecution complex into the discussion.

I meant what I said earlier about trading talk about sexuality/gender for talk about religious topics in schools. Let both happen organically, if at all.

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Offline catastrophe

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Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #36 on: November 07, 2024, 06:15:54 PM »
https://www.instagram.com/anthonyblogan/reel/CvstLl1RSi-/
This could be a plant for all I know but the point is a valid one. No one is immune to bigotry and a lot of the time their feelings come down to a gross oversimplification of who they perceive a given group to be.

I know a lot of people who perceive a “Christian” to be a Ben Shapiro type or even Trump brandishing a Bible for a photo op. They really are about as ignorant of what it means as many people seem to think about kids that go to school and get a surprise sex change.

In my experience, generally the further a church is distanced from Apostlic succession, the likelier it is to veer into problematic expressions of the Faith; including affirmation and condemnation of sin/sinners.
I don’t think that continuum really exists or is an indication of anything. Even within Catholic communities, the treatment of marginalized groups and focus on biblical teachings can be very different.

There are also Bible churches completely outside of what you’d call Apostolic succession that fall on opposite ends of the spectrum, some of which are probably truer to  apostolic teachings (as evidenced in the New Testament) than the Catholic Church.

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Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #37 on: November 07, 2024, 06:44:29 PM »
I think there's probably a tough balance to strike for both parties.  I imagine there's probably a sweet spot somewhere for the left where they don't completely alienate the lgbt community while maintaining the more centrist/"normie" groups.  Where exactly that line is, i don't know. 

I think the right probably has a similar problem with the pro-lifer types (ahem) and how far to the left they can get on the abortion issue (to grab some of that meaty center of the electorate) before they scare off the hardcore pro-lifers into voting for the american solidarity party or whatever. 

As I think about it, this same thing probably exists for like, dozens of platform issues on either side.  I'm leaving my post up even though everything i'm saying is completely obvious and none of it has any substantive value.

I think your thoughts on abortion are interesting (and useful!). But I don't think there's much pressure from the right to do more than what has been done. Trump said he'd veto national abortion bans and it was the best Republican result in decades
There’s pressure but it’s not very loud.  Pro lifers are (understandably) still grateful for Dobbs.  But as the Dobbs afterglow wears off, along with pro-choice sentiment increasing support more broadly, the next Republican ticket will have to try to be as center as possible without totally alienating the hardcore folks. Vance in the debate aligned a lot closer to me than Trump has, which probably means Vance’s message was too hardcore for the middle.

Again though, this phenomenon exists with basically every discreet issue.  Be as centrist as you can without losing “the base.”  I think the same is the case for LGBT stuff with dems.  How far to the center can they get (in order to not disqualify the “working class” types) while keeping the hardcore LGBT’rs in line?


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Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #38 on: November 07, 2024, 06:53:51 PM »
I think that if the right wants to remain ideologically consistent on abortion while moving to the left, they should support abortion after the 8th month, but not before.

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Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #39 on: November 07, 2024, 08:57:38 PM »
I think there's probably a tough balance to strike for both parties.  I imagine there's probably a sweet spot somewhere for the left where they don't completely alienate the lgbt community while maintaining the more centrist/"normie" groups.  Where exactly that line is, i don't know. 

I think the right probably has a similar problem with the pro-lifer types (ahem) and how far to the left they can get on the abortion issue (to grab some of that meaty center of the electorate) before they scare off the hardcore pro-lifers into voting for the american solidarity party or whatever. 

As I think about it, this same thing probably exists for like, dozens of platform issues on either side.  I'm leaving my post up even though everything i'm saying is completely obvious and none of it has any substantive value.

I think your thoughts on abortion are interesting (and useful!). But I don't think there's much pressure from the right to do more than what has been done. Trump said he'd veto national abortion bans and it was the best Republican result in decades
There’s pressure but it’s not very loud.  Pro lifers are (understandably) still grateful for Dobbs.  But as the Dobbs afterglow wears off, along with pro-choice sentiment increasing support more broadly, the next Republican ticket will have to try to be as center as possible without totally alienating the hardcore folks. Vance in the debate aligned a lot closer to me than Trump has, which probably means Vance’s message was too hardcore for the middle.

Again though, this phenomenon exists with basically every discreet issue.  Be as centrist as you can without losing “the base.”  I think the same is the case for LGBT stuff with dems.  How far to the center can they get (in order to not disqualify the “working class” types) while keeping the hardcore LGBT’rs in line?

I really think the most potentially insurmountable challenge with trans rights is trans girls playing girls sports. Which is really an absurd thing to worry about when you look at how often it happens but does the most damage to the center IMO. I don't know how to do it but I still think the best way I've seen a politician handle it is the Utah governor's veto announcement

https://governor.utah.gov/2022/03/24/gov-cox-why-im-vetoing-hb11/

I hadn't read it in a while and introducing a panel/committee to ensure the trans kids' participation is safe and fair for everyone seems like a pretty good compromise. (Really I think safety should be all that matters but it's compromise!) I would hope that could address a lot of fears while also keeping LGBT activists engaged and most importantly ensuring trans kids are mostly treated like regular kids

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Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #40 on: November 07, 2024, 09:47:47 PM »
Good call on that letter (or w/e), rusty. I still think about that and wonder how the hell anyone could disagree.
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Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #41 on: November 07, 2024, 09:59:11 PM »
I’m just wondering, do we have an age where it’s appropriate to start transitioning?


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Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #42 on: November 07, 2024, 10:02:30 PM »
I’m just wondering, do we have an age where it’s appropriate to start transitioning?


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I leave that to medical professionals and the individuals and families involved, for both social and medical transitions. It's none of my business

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Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #43 on: November 07, 2024, 10:04:27 PM »
I’m just wondering, do we have an age where it’s appropriate to start transitioning?


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I think it depends on whether you consider puberty blockers a part of transitioning.

Either way, I personally think parents are the primary decision makers if you’re talking before 18 (you can of course pick an earlier age but they’re all arbitrary so why not the most socially acceptable).

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Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #44 on: November 07, 2024, 10:07:51 PM »
I’m just wondering, do we have an age where it’s appropriate to start transitioning?


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Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #45 on: November 07, 2024, 10:12:50 PM »
I’m just wondering, do we have an age where it’s appropriate to start transitioning?


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I think it depends on whether you consider puberty blockers a part of transitioning.

Either way, I personally think parents are the primary decision makers if you’re talking before 18 (you can of course pick an earlier age but they’re all arbitrary so why not the most socially acceptable).
I agree parents need to involved for medical transition but I'm not totally sold they need to be involved for some levels of social transition. My daughter has a friend in who is they/them around friends and at school but she/her at home because her mom is Russian and would freak the eff out. I don't quite understand it, but it's not really my business and it seems to work out ok.

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Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #46 on: November 07, 2024, 10:29:07 PM »
I’m just wondering, do we have an age where it’s appropriate to start transitioning?


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I think it depends on whether you consider puberty blockers a part of transitioning.

Either way, I personally think parents are the primary decision makers if you’re talking before 18 (you can of course pick an earlier age but they’re all arbitrary so why not the most socially acceptable).
I agree parents need to involved for medical transition but I'm not totally sold they need to be involved for some levels of social transition. My daughter has a friend in who is they/them around friends and at school but she/her at home because her mom is Russian and would freak the eff out. I don't quite understand it, but it's not really my business and it seems to work out ok.
Sure and I wasn’t really appreciating those distinctions in my response. Just as a general matter I do think kids (as human beings) are generally responsible for their social presentation/interactions.

I will say, though, that I’d be pissed if my kid’s teacher never told me they were insisting that everyone at school refer to them as a different gender.

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Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #47 on: November 07, 2024, 10:34:59 PM »

and right about here would be the part where someone like _33 is going to come in and say "oh so voting R makes me a homophobe? got it." so I'm going to explain what i mean.

I'm an amazing poster who would never say anything so lame. Please don't attribute your shitty fake posts to me.

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Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #48 on: November 07, 2024, 10:40:43 PM »


I’m just wondering, do we have an age where it’s appropriate to start transitioning?


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I think it depends on whether you consider puberty blockers a part of transitioning.

Either way, I personally think parents are the primary decision makers if you’re talking before 18 (you can of course pick an earlier age but they’re all arbitrary so why not the most socially acceptable).
I agree parents need to involved for medical transition but I'm not totally sold they need to be involved for some levels of social transition. My daughter has a friend in who is they/them around friends and at school but she/her at home because her mom is Russian and would freak the eff out. I don't quite understand it, but it's not really my business and it seems to work out ok.
Sure and I wasn’t really appreciating those distinctions in my response. Just as a general matter I do think kids (as human beings) are generally responsible for their social presentation/interactions.

I will say, though, that I’d be pissed if my kid’s teacher never told me they were insisting that everyone at school refer to them as a different gender.

Yeah I totally get it. On the flip side I can also understand how plenty of kids might look at school as a safer place to begin transitioning than home. Data for how often this happens and the outcomes for the kids would be really interesting

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Re: Transgender issues (not necessarily in sports)
« Reply #49 on: November 07, 2024, 10:45:38 PM »


I’m just wondering, do we have an age where it’s appropriate to start transitioning?


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I think it depends on whether you consider puberty blockers a part of transitioning.

Either way, I personally think parents are the primary decision makers if you’re talking before 18 (you can of course pick an earlier age but they’re all arbitrary so why not the most socially acceptable).
I agree parents need to involved for medical transition but I'm not totally sold they need to be involved for some levels of social transition. My daughter has a friend in who is they/them around friends and at school but she/her at home because her mom is Russian and would freak the eff out. I don't quite understand it, but it's not really my business and it seems to work out ok.
Sure and I wasn’t really appreciating those distinctions in my response. Just as a general matter I do think kids (as human beings) are generally responsible for their social presentation/interactions.

I will say, though, that I’d be pissed if my kid’s teacher never told me they were insisting that everyone at school refer to them as a different gender.

Yeah I totally get it. On the flip side I can also understand how plenty of kids might look at school as a safer place to begin transitioning than home. Data for how often this happens and the outcomes for the kids would be really interesting

Looking back on when I was in high school, this is just wild to me. Kids must be a whole lot nicer than they used to be.