Author Topic: Possible WW3 thread  (Read 464802 times)

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Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Possible WW3 thread
« Reply #4775 on: October 25, 2022, 01:44:03 PM »

Offline star seed 7

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Re: Possible WW3 thread
« Reply #4776 on: October 25, 2022, 01:55:40 PM »
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Possible WW3 thread
« Reply #4777 on: October 25, 2022, 01:57:51 PM »
#neocongE is super triggered today (or at least more than usual)  :thumbsup:


Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Possible WW3 thread
« Reply #4778 on: October 25, 2022, 02:15:10 PM »
Stay long on defense . . .

Next to Rand, some other #neocon think tank go-to's and their financial supporters

https://cepa.org/about-cepa/our-supporters/

https://www.marshallcenter.org/en/about/leadership-bios

https://www.marshallcenter.org/en/about/our-partners

Dad wrote one of the blueprint's for Perpetual War . . . https://www.marshallcenter.org/en/event/security-21st-century-interview-ian-brzezinski


Offline Spracne

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Re: Possible WW3 thread
« Reply #4779 on: October 25, 2022, 02:19:06 PM »
My winning smile and can-do attitude.

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Possible WW3 thread
« Reply #4780 on: October 25, 2022, 02:22:46 PM »
#neocongE - Thimble deep on the issues

Offline Dugout DickStone

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Re: Possible WW3 thread
« Reply #4781 on: October 25, 2022, 03:27:11 PM »
#neocons/#neocongE:  Facilitating Ukrainian Nazi's since 2006 (and before)

Putin dropped the nazi thing and called everyone who believed it in the first place a huge idiot with prodigious man boobs.

Try to keep with russia's glorious struggle against satan

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Possible WW3 thread
« Reply #4782 on: October 25, 2022, 03:33:45 PM »
The numerous articles pertaining to “Does the US have a Nazi problem in Ukraine”? (Coupled with Derp level explanations regarding political representation by #neocongE) says otherwise.

We believe all Russian propaganda when it fits our agenda . . . #bluenon/#neocongE  So if they now say Satan, then so be it. 

Offline star seed 7

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Re: Possible WW3 thread
« Reply #4783 on: October 25, 2022, 03:35:04 PM »
@sonofdaxjones, I think you're old man confused again
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline Dugout DickStone

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Re: Possible WW3 thread
« Reply #4784 on: October 25, 2022, 03:35:40 PM »
The numerous articles pertaining to “Does the US have a Nazi problem in Ukraine”? (Coupled with Derp level explanations regarding political representation by #neocongE) says otherwise.

We believe all Russian propaganda when it fits our agenda . . . #bluenon/#neocongE  So if they now say Satan, then so be it.

at least you are ready to call putin a short loser who is stupid also.  That is fair

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Possible WW3 thread
« Reply #4785 on: October 25, 2022, 04:42:32 PM »
@sonofdaxjones, I think you're old man confused again

The go to tap out for the DeflectoBot.7

Goodness

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Possible WW3 thread
« Reply #4786 on: October 25, 2022, 04:43:13 PM »
The numerous articles pertaining to “Does the US have a Nazi problem in Ukraine”? (Coupled with Derp level explanations regarding political representation by #neocongE) says otherwise.

We believe all Russian propaganda when it fits our agenda . . . #bluenon/#neocongE  So if they now say Satan, then so be it.

at least you are ready to call putin a short loser who is stupid also.  That is fair

Oh man, you really got me  :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Offline Dugout DickStone

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Re: Possible WW3 thread
« Reply #4787 on: October 25, 2022, 04:54:59 PM »
The numerous articles pertaining to “Does the US have a Nazi problem in Ukraine”? (Coupled with Derp level explanations regarding political representation by #neocongE) says otherwise.

We believe all Russian propaganda when it fits our agenda . . . #bluenon/#neocongE  So if they now say Satan, then so be it.

at least you are ready to call putin a short loser who is stupid also.  That is fair

Oh man, you really got me  :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

I like when we can agree and we both agree that russia trying to shift to "we are fighting satanists" is hilariously impotent/probably wasted drunk.

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: Possible WW3 thread
« Reply #4788 on: October 25, 2022, 05:20:20 PM »
Drunk and dialing up some NATO weapons off the Ukrainian black market.

Ukraine:  Where even in the middle of a war our finance guy was embezzling money


Offline Sandstone Outcropping

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Re: Possible WW3 thread
« Reply #4789 on: October 25, 2022, 06:34:11 PM »
Russian society remains firm in their defiance of Western decadence. The last bastion of Christian virtue:

https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1585036929917423616?s=46&t=aQimaNIHQy9_aV_ovk8BZg

Offline star seed 7

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Re: Possible WW3 thread
« Reply #4790 on: October 25, 2022, 06:36:29 PM »
Just like dax, she's prepared to fight until the last russian
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Possible WW3 thread
« Reply #4791 on: October 25, 2022, 08:00:16 PM »
It’s really wild that the very anodyne statement was withdrawn. Pathetic.

Offline sys

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Re: Possible WW3 thread
« Reply #4792 on: October 25, 2022, 09:20:35 PM »
It’s really wild that the very anodyne statement was withdrawn. Pathetic.

well it was an extremely stupid letter, if that helps.
"a garden city man wondered in april if the theologians had not made a mistake in locating the garden of eden in asia rather than in the arkansas river valley."

Offline Kat Kid

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Possible WW3 thread
« Reply #4793 on: October 25, 2022, 09:54:10 PM »
It was stupid insomuch as it didn’t even say much of anything of substance. It said that Ukraine should still be able to defend itself, the us should only support a settlement supported by the Ukrainian people, but that ultimately it would be good if this was a negotiated settlement as opposed to a military one and so let’s continue to push for negotiations. It made the obvious point that because the US has supplied Ukraine with weapons and has put sanctions on Russia we are already involved and should use incentives to help this end with a peaceful settlement.

Most of these just are obvious statements in the least controversial language possible.

Is it your position that this war should only end militarily?

Offline Justwin

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Re: Possible WW3 thread
« Reply #4794 on: October 25, 2022, 10:05:40 PM »
It was stupid insomuch as it didn’t even say much of anything of substance. It said that Ukraine should still be able to defend itself, the us should only support a settlement supported by the Ukrainian people, but that ultimately it would be good if this was a negotiated settlement as opposed to a military one and so let’s continue to push for negotiations. It made the obvious point that because the US has supplied Ukraine with weapons and has put sanctions on Russia we are already involved and should use incentives to help this end with a peaceful settlement.

Most of these just are obvious statements in the least controversial language possible.

Is it your position that this war should only end militarily?

What do you think Russia should give up to end the war?

Offline sys

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Re: Possible WW3 thread
« Reply #4795 on: October 25, 2022, 10:27:59 PM »
Is it your position that this war should only end militarily?

my position is that the war will only end when both sides view the cessation of hostilities as preferable to the continuation of them.  that is obviously not the case now, nor was it in july.

a ceasefire now would only benefit russia and the appearance of dissension in biden's party only encourages russia.  hence stupid.
"a garden city man wondered in april if the theologians had not made a mistake in locating the garden of eden in asia rather than in the arkansas river valley."

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Possible WW3 thread
« Reply #4796 on: October 26, 2022, 01:14:37 AM »
It was stupid insomuch as it didn’t even say much of anything of substance. It said that Ukraine should still be able to defend itself, the us should only support a settlement supported by the Ukrainian people, but that ultimately it would be good if this was a negotiated settlement as opposed to a military one and so let’s continue to push for negotiations. It made the obvious point that because the US has supplied Ukraine with weapons and has put sanctions on Russia we are already involved and should use incentives to help this end with a peaceful settlement.

Most of these just are obvious statements in the least controversial language possible.

Is it your position that this war should only end militarily?

What do you think Russia should give up to end the war?

You didn't ask me but I'll answer. The land in Ukraine that they're currently occupying that they invaded; Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson, and Zaporizhzhia. They should give Crimea back as well but I could see that being a bargaining chip.

Offline Kat Kid

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Possible WW3 thread
« Reply #4797 on: October 26, 2022, 07:05:54 AM »
Is it your position that this war should only end militarily?

my position is that the war will only end when both sides view the cessation of hostilities as preferable to the continuation of them.  that is obviously not the case now, nor was it in july.

a ceasefire now would only benefit russia and the appearance of dissension in biden's party only encourages russia.  hence stupid.
I think establishing a dialogue could potentially make more clear paths to ending the conflict, it is of course very possible that both sides would be unwilling to even talk, but setting that as a goal is just a very obvious step toward that eventual end. It is possible that taking this step could lead further away from later negotiations as you suggest, but we should compare that to the alternative that continuing the war is more likely to end the war than starting to negotiate its end. That seems wrong to me.

You and many others are very concerned with what Ukraine would think about all this, well good news! The statement had very careful language that said Ukraine and the Ukrainian people would need to support this ceasefire, so I’m not sure why it is implied like the US would be imposing this upon Ukraine. However, it is obviously true that Ukraine is the junior partner in this alliance with the US and the support of the US is not unlimited.

The part about “dissension encourages Russia” is just straight up Rumsfeld speak nonsense. Even if it were true it should not be a reason to forego critically discussing matters of war and peace for political leaders in the US. We do not owe Ukraine or any other country, even our closest allies, that kind of deference even in times of war.

As for what I think will happen or what should happen, I think that Russia will get at least some of the territory it now occupies and keep crimea. I think a more fair solution would be leaving Ukraine and getting some sort of concessions on NATO membership, but Russia really mumped itself so hard to know what Ukraine would really accept. The problem for Ukraine is, Russia hasn’t really paid a big price economically and Ukraines Allie’s in Europe may have to this winter so it isn’t that clear to me that prolonging the conflict is absolutely in Ukraine’s interest unless you concede that the first and only principle is Ukraine’s national interest and all other concerns by other parties should be secondary considerations. I don’t think that and also don’t think that is a realistic framework to impose.

I also think that having ongoing negotiations decreases the likelihood of escalation to nuclear war. I think that is a separate and really important achievement and reason enough to start and keep communications going with Russia. Now if you believe that Russia is truly completely irrational and Putin is going to use nukes no matter what then you should act differently (although I’m not quite sure what one would do with that).

Getting some parameters and discussion started now is beneficial for lots of reasons.

Offline Justwin

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Re: Possible WW3 thread
« Reply #4798 on: October 26, 2022, 09:26:21 AM »
I think the borders should go back to where they were pre-2014. If I was a Ukrainian, I would not support a ceasefire for anything less. As an American, I think that since we got involved in the conflict, we should support Ukraine until we get to that point. There are no American soldiers losing their life in this conflict and I think that is an important point. Once we committed to supporting Ukraine, I think we should continue that support until we get back to pre-2014 borders.

What do you (Kat Kid) mean in terms of Russia not paying a big price economically? I think they have paid a big price. Not as large as the US had hoped with the sanctions, but still pretty steep. Putin's grip on the country is also suffering. I think Russia will start to suffer more and more economically the longer this conflict goes and Putin's control on the control will lessen the longer and longer this goes.

That said, I cannot wait for this to be over. I do not want the conflict to continue just to hammer Putin and Russia. However, anything less than pre-2014 borders is a non-starter to me. Otherwise, Putin is just going to keep invading countries to gain more territory. We should be in contact with Russian negotiators and having dialogue with them. The dialogue should center on preparing them to go back to pre-2014 borders. The longer they have to mentally prepare themselves for it, the sooner they can accept it.

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: Possible WW3 thread
« Reply #4799 on: October 26, 2022, 09:53:11 AM »
Unclear to me if at this point Crimea has many people that would want to return to Ukraine. I’m open to being wrong but that certainly complicates things.

Obviously the sham elections in the east were illegitimate, but how would you go about reclaiming Crimea for Ukraine? Just kick out the Russians living there? Reissue passports? Kind of complicated.

I am sympathetic to Ukraine wanting to re-claim Crimea, I just don’t know practically how it would work and the relative cost and what the United States should do.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/oct/04/ukrainian-economy-will-shrink-at-rate-eight-times-that-of-russia-world-bank-forecasts

I take the point that there has been some cost to the war in Russia, but they may well even grow GDP if oil prices go up. The expectations vs reality of the sanctions regime have been a wide miss. Also, Ukraine is going to need more and more support after the war. They already were much poorer than Russia on per capita GDP going in, that gap is getting wider.