Author Topic: 10/22 debate thread  (Read 11799 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Brock Landers

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 7241
    • View Profile
Re: 10/22 debate thread
« Reply #150 on: October 23, 2020, 05:46:00 PM »

Offline sys

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 40815
  • your reputation will never recover, nor should it.
    • View Profile
Re: 10/22 debate thread
« Reply #151 on: October 23, 2020, 05:51:01 PM »
There are apparently a shitload of birds out there!  Over 3 BILLION die in the US every year!  WTF?  Feels like maybe we should be killing more birds if there are that many birds already?

wait till you find out how many humans there are.
"a garden city man wondered in april if the theologians had not made a mistake in locating the garden of eden in asia rather than in the arkansas river valley."

Offline sys

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 40815
  • your reputation will never recover, nor should it.
    • View Profile
Re: 10/22 debate thread
« Reply #152 on: October 23, 2020, 05:58:27 PM »
Yes, I seen two docs on that facility, they're pretty fascinating, but overall I don't think a great solution, if anything because you lose energy for storing it, but it would be a great backstop solution for certain applications

i'm curious why you don't think this is a good solution.  it would seem pretty cheap and practical to me to outfit every hydro-producing resovoir with solar/wind and just pump the water back up and run it again forever (didn't watch the vid, so dunno if this is what the british lake setup is).
"a garden city man wondered in april if the theologians had not made a mistake in locating the garden of eden in asia rather than in the arkansas river valley."

Offline Trim

  • Global Moderator
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 42623
  • Pfizer PLUS Moderna and now Pfizer Bivalent
    • View Profile
Re: 10/22 debate thread
« Reply #153 on: October 23, 2020, 06:09:13 PM »
I had no idea there were so many total birds that cats alone could kill that many and it not be a big deal.

it kinda is a big deal.

By big deal, I mean noticeable to me that there are less birds around, or that there were so many birds to begin with.

I'm still rationalizing that the infographic got put together after some one screwed up a decimal point or something.  I cannot wrap my head around that there are areas in the country with birds upon birds and few/no humans so that birds outnumber us so incredibly overall.

Online star seed 7

  • hyperactive on the :lol:
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 67464
  • good dog
    • View Profile
Re: 10/22 debate thread
« Reply #154 on: October 23, 2020, 06:11:10 PM »
There are crap loads of birds around my house and at least 3 cats i see out hunting from time to time
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline Trim

  • Global Moderator
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 42623
  • Pfizer PLUS Moderna and now Pfizer Bivalent
    • View Profile
Re: 10/22 debate thread
« Reply #155 on: October 23, 2020, 06:20:13 PM »
There are crap loads of birds around my house and at least 3 cats i see out hunting from time to time

By crap loads, do you mean exponentially more birds than people?

Offline sys

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 40815
  • your reputation will never recover, nor should it.
    • View Profile
Re: 10/22 debate thread
« Reply #156 on: October 23, 2020, 06:32:15 PM »
google thinks there are between 7 and 20 billion birds in the united states, depending on the time of year (and the estimate you prefer).  doesn't seem like that many to me.
"a garden city man wondered in april if the theologians had not made a mistake in locating the garden of eden in asia rather than in the arkansas river valley."

Online star seed 7

  • hyperactive on the :lol:
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 67464
  • good dog
    • View Profile
Re: 10/22 debate thread
« Reply #157 on: October 23, 2020, 06:32:36 PM »
There are crap loads of birds around my house and at least 3 cats i see out hunting from time to time

By crap loads, do you mean exponentially more birds than people?

Definitely
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline sys

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 40815
  • your reputation will never recover, nor should it.
    • View Profile
"a garden city man wondered in april if the theologians had not made a mistake in locating the garden of eden in asia rather than in the arkansas river valley."

Offline sonofdaxjones

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 59602
    • View Profile
Re: 10/22 debate thread
« Reply #159 on: October 23, 2020, 07:52:27 PM »
LOL

Offline cfbandyman

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 11077
  • To da 'ville.
    • View Profile
Re: 10/22 debate thread
« Reply #160 on: October 23, 2020, 08:54:22 PM »
Yes, I seen two docs on that facility, they're pretty fascinating, but overall I don't think a great solution, if anything because you lose energy for storing it, but it would be a great backstop solution for certain applications

i'm curious why you don't think this is a good solution.  it would seem pretty cheap and practical to me to outfit every hydro-producing resovoir with solar/wind and just pump the water back up and run it again forever (didn't watch the vid, so dunno if this is what the british lake setup is).


Eh, it's not really "cheap" per se especially with batteries becoming cheaper and cheaper.

The british place is like a dammed reservoir that only runs during he night to fill, and during the day/peak times becomes a generator to produce electricity. That area kinda was natural to have it but still it's a lot of work to make that happen it is a very complex facility and a lot of design and management goes with it, batteries aren't risk free but they are easier to maintain and deal with and design is much less. I am not wholly against it, I think it's great for certain applications, just not a great one.

My bigger issue is that you have in general more losses with hydro storage. Electric motors and generators are very efficient, but you still lose energy, and while a battery will have losses, just not as much, and you don't have the additional loss of running a motor to drive a pump only to have it go in reverse and lose some more energy again. If you decide to separate those two processes that 2x the motor/generators since you have set of pumps, an then a set of generators, which is a lot of overhead cost and maintenance.

Also to speak to outfitting a dam, like, the amount of water you'd put back in that reservoir I would imagine would miniscule vs the the entire installation, maybe it'd work on smaller sites, sort of like the british place, but like, I am imagining like hoover damn in my mind and the amount of taking water back to the backside of the dam would sure give you more water back but like once again, just put that on the grid, you just wouldn't the return you'd be looking for.

Also, the sort of whole point of having the reservoir is to deal with peaking demands, just pumping it into existing hydroplant unless you got another generator on standby doesn't help, and if I operate said hydroplant and I have 50, 70, 80MW or w/e of a generator just sitting there waiting to pick up extra load, vs just making money by running it all the time, I'd rather do the later.

I more envision a future 10-20 years from where no more peaking plants like simple cycle combustion turbines exist. Most baseload is wind, solar, and combined cycle natural gas, and biomass or the like (coal I think barely makes it into the 2030s, only the most recent plants like Iatan will exist, most coal plants anyways are practically relics at this point being from the 70s and 80s, few were built in the 90s and 00s, I think the last one was done in 2011, Iatan was 09) and batteries take excess generation to store, and release when demand goes high. Natural gas plants then get phased out as they age until gone same as coal, but probably another 10-20 years after coal goes away. Only places like hospitals and data centers will have diesel gensets for critical power things, and that obviously isn't a lot of run time.
A&M Style: 1/19/13 Co-Champion of THE ED's College Basketball Challenge

The art of the deal with it poors

OG Elon hater


Offline sys

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 40815
  • your reputation will never recover, nor should it.
    • View Profile
Re: 10/22 debate thread
« Reply #161 on: October 23, 2020, 08:58:32 PM »
thanks, that was helpful and clarifying.
"a garden city man wondered in april if the theologians had not made a mistake in locating the garden of eden in asia rather than in the arkansas river valley."

Offline cfbandyman

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 11077
  • To da 'ville.
    • View Profile
Re: 10/22 debate thread
« Reply #162 on: October 23, 2020, 09:30:09 PM »
Last thing on this whole crap, but more honest talk, while I cheer for the demise of coal, I do not cheer for the impact of the communities they serve, and it's something that has to legitimately be addressed no matter who runs this crap. Most coal plants as I stated are pretty old, and therefore essentially pillars of a community they are near, they often employ nearly a hundred if not more people, and often highly skilled and highly paying jobs, which for any small to decent sized town is important. Let alone the twice yearly migrant workforce that comes in for outage seasons.

All of that is not easy to replace, so it's understandable why it's death is highly resisted, I just wish it was an honest conversation about household economics, environment, and the future, instead of digging ones heal in and claiming that climate change is a hoax, or downplay they affects coal has. That's how it's sold to a lot of those communities, but the underlying truth of a negative local impact can't also be denied.
 
As a person who will never forget my first time at a coal plant and then taking a shower and blowing my nose and seeing the just horrible amount of gross black soot from the coal piles and crushers come out of my nose, and while they do have filters in the stacks, and do a lot of things to try and "clean it up" it ain't clean. You'll never forget it. Though it did feel a bit like Zoolander when he was complaining about having black lung after one day in the mines.

Will the transition be cheap? No, but nor is maintaining these old, decrepit, and increasing unreliable plants that have been around for 40-50 years. Solar literally is the cheapest option now, coal can't hack it, and even natural gas plants are often put in a holding pattern. Many utilities see the costs going down, and wet their feet as they can. It's only going to be more like that, not less. Why invest in a 350MW combined cycle plant when it takes about 5-6 years to realize it, I have to staff it, and pay fuel costs, when I could build 50MW of solar a year that keeps getting cheaper and add a battery at the end of it, and end up in roughly the same spot. That is the thinking right now (for the most part)

The real battle will be how quickly do you want to it, and I feel like the same thing with electric cars, which while also the future, most people don't purchase a car every year, let alone every 5 or so, so the turn over, even if you only sold just electric starting tomorrow, isn't instant, nor would I expect it to be. But the future for wind and solar, is here, and it isn't going away
A&M Style: 1/19/13 Co-Champion of THE ED's College Basketball Challenge

The art of the deal with it poors

OG Elon hater


Offline wetwillie

  • goEMAW Poster of the WEEK
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 32521
    • View Profile
Re: 10/22 debate thread
« Reply #163 on: October 23, 2020, 09:35:37 PM »
#teachthemtocode
When the bullets are flying, that's when I'm at my best

Offline sys

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 40815
  • your reputation will never recover, nor should it.
    • View Profile
Re: 10/22 debate thread
« Reply #164 on: October 23, 2020, 09:38:57 PM »
the future for wind and solar, is here, and it isn't going away

agree.

shopping for cars this year has made me realize that electrification of new cars is coming faster than i had thought.
"a garden city man wondered in april if the theologians had not made a mistake in locating the garden of eden in asia rather than in the arkansas river valley."

Offline bucket

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 10179
    • View Profile
Re: 10/22 debate thread
« Reply #165 on: October 23, 2020, 09:52:10 PM »
the future for wind and solar, is here, and it isn't going away

agree.

shopping for cars this year has made me realize that electrification of new cars is coming faster than i had thought.

The search/research continues?  :lol:

Offline sys

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 40815
  • your reputation will never recover, nor should it.
    • View Profile
Re: 10/22 debate thread
« Reply #166 on: October 23, 2020, 09:54:04 PM »
i'm medium convinced that i want to buy a hyundai santa fe hybrid, but they won't be available until early in 2021.  so i'm waiting.
"a garden city man wondered in april if the theologians had not made a mistake in locating the garden of eden in asia rather than in the arkansas river valley."

Offline cfbandyman

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 11077
  • To da 'ville.
    • View Profile
Re: 10/22 debate thread
« Reply #167 on: October 23, 2020, 11:11:45 PM »
Model Y  :gocho:
A&M Style: 1/19/13 Co-Champion of THE ED's College Basketball Challenge

The art of the deal with it poors

OG Elon hater


Offline michigancat

  • Contributor
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • *****
  • Posts: 55964
  • change your stupid avatar.
    • View Profile
Re: 10/22 debate thread
« Reply #168 on: October 24, 2020, 10:32:47 AM »
Guys I think cfb knows his stuff

Offline catastrophe

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 16048
    • View Profile
Re: 10/22 debate thread
« Reply #169 on: October 24, 2020, 02:17:28 PM »
They don’t call him cfb handyman for nothing.

Offline kim carnes

  • chingon!
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 13843
    • View Profile
Re: 10/22 debate thread
« Reply #170 on: October 24, 2020, 03:02:05 PM »
The thing about non-residential solar is it takes up too much space.  That is a form of pollution in itself.

Offline cfbandyman

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 11077
  • To da 'ville.
    • View Profile
Re: 10/22 debate thread
« Reply #171 on: October 24, 2020, 08:56:29 PM »
The thing about non-residential solar is it takes up too much space.  That is a form of pollution in itself.


Another argument that doesn't hold much weight

https://www.freeingenergy.com/how-much-solar-would-it-take-to-power-the-u-s/

21000 square miles, and that's if you just have solar and none on roofs. People also never think about parking lots (which would have a double benefit or protecting cars) and other such just large ass land areas that aren't used for anything.

As the article has

40,223 square miles – this is the size of the land leased by the oil and gas industry (according to the US Bureau of Land Management).
18,500 square miles – the amount of federal land offered for lease to the oil and gas industry in 2017 alone.
13,000 square miles  – the US land that has been impacted by coal surface mining [1]
33,750 square miles – this is the land set aside to grow the corn used to make ethanol, a gasoline substitute [2].
17,120 square miles – the estimated surface area of US roads (8.8 million lane-miles at an average 10 feet wide).
70,312 square miles – the total amount of US land used for lawns [3].
22,000 square miles – the size of the Mojave desert, located in southeast California.
2,200 square miles – the amount of Appalachian forests that have been cleared for mountaintop removal coal mining by 2012.
3,590 square miles – a best guess at how much land is used for parking lots.

We use a crap ton of land for way for potential pollution things
A&M Style: 1/19/13 Co-Champion of THE ED's College Basketball Challenge

The art of the deal with it poors

OG Elon hater


Offline kim carnes

  • chingon!
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 13843
    • View Profile
Re: 10/22 debate thread
« Reply #172 on: October 24, 2020, 09:03:41 PM »
The thing about non-residential solar is it takes up too much space.  That is a form of pollution in itself.


Another argument that doesn't hold much weight

https://www.freeingenergy.com/how-much-solar-would-it-take-to-power-the-u-s/

21000 square miles, and that's if you just have solar and none on roofs. People also never think about parking lots (which would have a double benefit or protecting cars) and other such just large ass land areas that aren't used for anything.

As the article has

40,223 square miles – this is the size of the land leased by the oil and gas industry (according to the US Bureau of Land Management).
18,500 square miles – the amount of federal land offered for lease to the oil and gas industry in 2017 alone.
13,000 square miles  – the US land that has been impacted by coal surface mining [1]
33,750 square miles – this is the land set aside to grow the corn used to make ethanol, a gasoline substitute [2].
17,120 square miles – the estimated surface area of US roads (8.8 million lane-miles at an average 10 feet wide).
70,312 square miles – the total amount of US land used for lawns [3].
22,000 square miles – the size of the Mojave desert, located in southeast California.
2,200 square miles – the amount of Appalachian forests that have been cleared for mountaintop removal coal mining by 2012.
3,590 square miles – a best guess at how much land is used for parking lots.

We use a crap ton of land for way for potential pollution things

I don’t support coal.  I don’t support oil.  You don’t understand how oil leases work.  But if you’re right, I guess that number isn’t that bad.  I’m just tired of humans raping earth.

Offline cfbandyman

  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 11077
  • To da 'ville.
    • View Profile
Re: 10/22 debate thread
« Reply #173 on: October 24, 2020, 09:06:57 PM »
The thing about non-residential solar is it takes up too much space.  That is a form of pollution in itself.


Another argument that doesn't hold much weight

https://www.freeingenergy.com/how-much-solar-would-it-take-to-power-the-u-s/

21000 square miles, and that's if you just have solar and none on roofs. People also never think about parking lots (which would have a double benefit or protecting cars) and other such just large ass land areas that aren't used for anything.

As the article has

40,223 square miles – this is the size of the land leased by the oil and gas industry (according to the US Bureau of Land Management).
18,500 square miles – the amount of federal land offered for lease to the oil and gas industry in 2017 alone.
13,000 square miles  – the US land that has been impacted by coal surface mining [1]
33,750 square miles – this is the land set aside to grow the corn used to make ethanol, a gasoline substitute [2].
17,120 square miles – the estimated surface area of US roads (8.8 million lane-miles at an average 10 feet wide).
70,312 square miles – the total amount of US land used for lawns [3].
22,000 square miles – the size of the Mojave desert, located in southeast California.
2,200 square miles – the amount of Appalachian forests that have been cleared for mountaintop removal coal mining by 2012.
3,590 square miles – a best guess at how much land is used for parking lots.

We use a crap ton of land for way for potential pollution things

I don’t support coal.  I don’t support oil.  You don’t understand how oil leases work.  But if you’re right, I guess that number isn’t that bad.  I’m just tired of humans raping earth.

Sure, but TBF, the only way to stop that is to not have humans, IMO, we just can do things to not make it be as bad
A&M Style: 1/19/13 Co-Champion of THE ED's College Basketball Challenge

The art of the deal with it poors

OG Elon hater


Offline kim carnes

  • chingon!
  • Pak'r Élitaire
  • ****
  • Posts: 13843
    • View Profile
Re: 10/22 debate thread
« Reply #174 on: October 24, 2020, 09:09:57 PM »
Also, I assume that 21,000 number is highly dependent on where the panels are geographically located which creates a lot of logistical problems.  I think our energy mix should come nuclear/renewables with some natural gas turbines as a backup.