Author Topic: The fragility of American democracy  (Read 1553 times)

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Offline treysolid

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The fragility of American democracy
« on: January 07, 2021, 02:26:45 PM »
I thought that this was a pretty interesting take. Not a very professional take, but one that got me thinking much more than anything else I've read in the last 24 hours.

https://indica.medium.com/i-lived-through-a-coup-america-is-having-one-now-437934b1dac3


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« Last Edit: January 07, 2021, 02:36:49 PM by treysolid »

Offline Sandstone Outcropping

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Re: The fragility of American democracy
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2021, 02:45:13 PM »
Interesting read. He makes some strong points.

Quote
This is precisely why we have elections, and why both sides accept the results. To keep the chaos at bay. The whole point is that you have a regular, ritual fight rather than fighting all the time. Once one side breaks ritual then you’re on the way to civil war. Once you break the rules then chaos ensues. What exactly happens? I don’t know. It’s chaos.

Offline sys

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Re: The fragility of American democracy
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2021, 02:47:22 PM »
interesting read.

i agree with at least some portions.

i am becoming increasingly intolerant of the "haha, look how dumb and fat magas are" trivializing of right-wing terrorists and their supporters.  this is how these things start.  nazis were initially viewed as clowns, not as threats.  bouie had a good twitter thread today describing the larping, buffoonish beginnings of the 19th century kkk.  that doesn't mean that all clowns become violent terrorists or fascists, but i think that's how pretty much how they all start.

the other thing touched on there that i agree with is that i've become much more aware over the past four years how poorly designed our government is.  lol @ us deifying the writers of the constitution.  they came up with such a shitty system of government and for some reason, like a nation of rough ridin' morons, we're still more or less still using it.

"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline Woogy

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Re: The fragility of American democracy
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2021, 02:54:11 PM »
Well, John Adams did say the Constitution would be wholly inadequate in the absence of general decorum of all involved.

Offline Sandstone Outcropping

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Re: The fragility of American democracy
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2021, 02:54:24 PM »
interesting read.

i agree with at least some portions.

i am becoming increasingly intolerant of the "haha, look how dumb and fat magas are" trivializing of right-wing terrorists and their supporters.  this is how these things start.  nazis were initially viewed as clowns, not as threats.  bouie had a good twitter thread today describing the larping, buffoonish beginnings of the 19th century kkk.  that doesn't mean that all clowns become violent terrorists or fascists, but i think that's how pretty much how they all start.

the other thing touched on there that i agree with is that i've become much more aware over the past four years how poorly designed our government is. lol @ us deifying the writers of the constitution.  they came up with such a shitty system of government and for some reason, like a nation of rough ridin' morons, we're still more or less still using it.
sys, why do you think we have managed to get by with just one (so far) civil war in the history of the US? Which governments would you consider to be the most democratic (some countries like Switzerland use a 7 person executive). Is is just luck that the system hasn't melted down again since 1861?  There are some really weird minoritarian things about our government like the electoral college, etc.

Offline Sandstone Outcropping

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Re: The fragility of American democracy
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2021, 02:55:30 PM »
Well, John Adams did say the Constitution would be wholly inadequate in the absence of general decorum of all involved.
Isn't that a given in any society that isn't forcibly welded together by a police state structure?

Offline sys

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Re: The fragility of American democracy
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2021, 02:58:52 PM »
sys, why do you think we have managed to get by with just one (so far) civil war in the history of the US? Which governments would you consider to be the most democratic (some countries like Switzerland use a 7 person executive). Is is just luck that the system hasn't melted down again since 1861?  There are some really weird minoritarian things about our government like the electoral college, etc.

one civil war seems like a lot!  and we have plenty of other examples of internal violence and political strife in our history.


"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline steve dave

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Re: The fragility of American democracy
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2021, 03:03:42 PM »
one civil war seems like a lot! 

especially considering our country is like 45 minutes old

Offline yoga-like_abana

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Re: The fragility of American democracy
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2021, 03:13:00 PM »
honest question: what all has changed for everyone? Or is is just the amount of media and articles being thrown your way? If you found out about this news a day later in the newspaper would it mean as much? (not downplaying that this was an awfully dumb event by dumbass people provoked by a dumbass)

Offline catastrophe

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Re: The fragility of American democracy
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2021, 03:17:56 PM »
I think we’ve allowed the president to occupy way too big of a constitutional vacuum and it would be incredible if the democratic legislature with a democratic president passed some stuff to formally curb those powers.

Other than that, I don’t think the system is all that bad other than the electoral college being rough ridin' stupid.

Offline michigancat

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Re: The fragility of American democracy
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2021, 03:20:10 PM »
interesting read.

i agree with at least some portions.

i am becoming increasingly intolerant of the "haha, look how dumb and fat magas are" trivializing of right-wing terrorists and their supporters.  this is how these things start.  nazis were initially viewed as clowns, not as threats.  bouie had a good twitter thread today describing the larping, buffoonish beginnings of the 19th century kkk.  that doesn't mean that all clowns become violent terrorists or fascists, but i think that's how pretty much how they all start.

the other thing touched on there that i agree with is that i've become much more aware over the past four years how poorly designed our government is.  lol @ us deifying the writers of the constitution.  they came up with such a shitty system of government and for some reason, like a nation of rough ridin' morons, we're still more or less still using it.



I think it's worth noting that when we topple governments and give them new constitutions we don't give them our setup

Offline BIG APPLE CAT

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Re: The fragility of American democracy
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2021, 03:50:36 PM »
interesting read.

i agree with at least some portions.

i am becoming increasingly intolerant of the "haha, look how dumb and fat magas are" trivializing of right-wing terrorists and their supporters.  this is how these things start.  nazis were initially viewed as clowns, not as threats.  bouie had a good twitter thread today describing the larping, buffoonish beginnings of the 19th century kkk.  that doesn't mean that all clowns become violent terrorists or fascists, but i think that's how pretty much how they all start.

the other thing touched on there that i agree with is that i've become much more aware over the past four years how poorly designed our government is.  lol @ us deifying the writers of the constitution.  they came up with such a shitty system of government and for some reason, like a nation of rough ridin' morons, we're still more or less still using it.



I think it's worth noting that when we topple governments and give them new constitutions we don't give them our setup

is that because we know our system sucks and we would be embarrassed to see it replicated elsewhere or is it because its a type of system that might lead to their eventual autonomy and stable government?

Offline Dugout DickStone

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Re: The fragility of American democracy
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2021, 03:55:58 PM »
interesting read.

i agree with at least some portions.

i am becoming increasingly intolerant of the "haha, look how dumb and fat magas are" trivializing of right-wing terrorists and their supporters.  this is how these things start.  nazis were initially viewed as clowns, not as threats.  bouie had a good twitter thread today describing the larping, buffoonish beginnings of the 19th century kkk.  that doesn't mean that all clowns become violent terrorists or fascists, but i think that's how pretty much how they all start.

the other thing touched on there that i agree with is that i've become much more aware over the past four years how poorly designed our government is.  lol @ us deifying the writers of the constitution.  they came up with such a shitty system of government and for some reason, like a nation of rough ridin' morons, we're still more or less still using it.

I am never going to stop making fun of the butter pants brigade.  I will also tease them about loving to vape 24/7

Offline michigancat

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Re: The fragility of American democracy
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2021, 03:56:05 PM »
interesting read.

i agree with at least some portions.

i am becoming increasingly intolerant of the "haha, look how dumb and fat magas are" trivializing of right-wing terrorists and their supporters.  this is how these things start.  nazis were initially viewed as clowns, not as threats.  bouie had a good twitter thread today describing the larping, buffoonish beginnings of the 19th century kkk.  that doesn't mean that all clowns become violent terrorists or fascists, but i think that's how pretty much how they all start.

the other thing touched on there that i agree with is that i've become much more aware over the past four years how poorly designed our government is.  lol @ us deifying the writers of the constitution.  they came up with such a shitty system of government and for some reason, like a nation of rough ridin' morons, we're still more or less still using it.



I think it's worth noting that when we topple governments and give them new constitutions we don't give them our setup

is that because we know our system sucks and we would be embarrassed to see it replicated elsewhere or is it because its a type of system that might lead to their eventual autonomy and stable government?

well Japan was top of mind when I mentioned it and they seem to be pretty autonomous and stable

Offline sys

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Re: The fragility of American democracy
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2021, 04:11:56 PM »
is that because we know our system sucks and we would be embarrassed to see it replicated elsewhere or is it because its a type of system that might lead to their eventual autonomy and stable government?

the countries that did copy our system (latin america) have had more than their fair share of unstable governments prone to abuse and regime failure.
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline sys

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Re: The fragility of American democracy
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2021, 04:14:09 PM »
"experienced commanders will simply be smeared and will actually go to the meat."

Offline cfbandyman

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Re: The fragility of American democracy
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2021, 05:14:23 PM »
I mean France builds barricades and is on it's 5th iteration of it's republic, granted republics 1 and 2 didn't exactly end the way you'd want but hey they work on it. 3rd one going away is also not really their fault, see nazis.

That being said, the thing is going to fall apart one way or another. Not trying to be hyperbolic, not trying to be melodramatic. It's continuing being subverted, and it's held hostage constantly by the minority sides of issues. Rejecting free and fair elections just makes it completely stop.

We should either shrug off the presidency and put a parliamentary system in, or a semi-presidential thing into place, those seem to always work better.
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Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: The fragility of American democracy
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2021, 05:26:47 PM »
Democrats have challenged the last 3 Pub wins, fought to the bitter end in the courts in 2000, instituted a constant stream of "not my president" the last 3 and arguably 4 times (minimum) a Pub has won the presidency . . .  and have discussed articles of impeachment on various levels for the last 5 Republican presidents in the halls of Congress.

So this handwringing about free and fair elections is very fascinating to me, considering that one side far more than the other has had thermonuclear meltdowns every time they've lost the presidency over the last 4 decades, until recently . . . and arguably the outrage is far more short lived on the Pub side than on the ProgLib side.

Central American democracies failed because of corruption  and that corruption has been driven in part and some cases wholly because of outside influences.   Namely the United States.









Offline Sandstone Outcropping

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Re: The fragility of American democracy
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2021, 11:24:47 AM »
The Electoral College Saved the Election? I'm trying to wrap my brain around this. It still seems very minoritarian. State elect governors by popular vote seemingly without any major problems. Is that just because governors don't matter or because state politics are organized around the two national parties? Lots of european democracies seem to get along just fine with a system that has multiple political parties.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-electoral-college-saved-the-election-11610133725?mod=hp_opin_pos_1

Offline yoga-like_abana

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Re: The fragility of American democracy
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2021, 11:43:25 AM »
also don't even get me started on how fragile and coddled the modern democracy is