Author Topic: Athletes Forcing Change  (Read 94642 times)

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Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #500 on: July 09, 2020, 09:23:28 AM »
I don't think it comes anywhere near harassment

yeah. if he was going around saying it directly at people, i could see that being interpreted as harassment or fighting words. but since he just put it on twitter - where presumably twitter doesn't force you to see his content and you have to go seek it out - i think that just means he's confirming that he's a piece of crap.

I saw his post without seeking it out. I would bet the vast majority of people who saw his post don't follow him.

Offline michigancat

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #501 on: July 09, 2020, 09:23:37 AM »


I would think of harassment in terms of, would the aggrieved person have any chance of getting a restraining order from the alleged harasser?

When someone says shitty things not about you that you saw, you’ve got a tough case there.

Harassment definitely doesn't need to be targeted at an individual. It's about making the environment uncomfortable for someone based on who or what they are. Jaden's a really smart racist because he's about at close to harassment as you can get and still have people defending him.

Offline catastrophe

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Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #502 on: July 09, 2020, 09:35:25 AM »


I would think of harassment in terms of, would the aggrieved person have any chance of getting a restraining order from the alleged harasser?

When someone says shitty things not about you that you saw, you’ve got a tough case there.

Harassment definitely doesn't need to be targeted at an individual. It's about making the environment uncomfortable for someone based on who or what they are. Jaden's a really smart racist because he's about at close to harassment as you can get and still have people defending him.
Well that’s just a ridiculously low bar you’ve set. That’s like saying the straight people eating at chick fil a were harassed by those dudes kissing.

The university should be focused on making people feel safe. But comfortable based on their identity? I can’t think of any group who has more vocally complained about being targeted based on identity than white men. I don’t think we should be catering to people’s comfort level.

Offline michigancat

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #503 on: July 09, 2020, 09:39:53 AM »


I would think of harassment in terms of, would the aggrieved person have any chance of getting a restraining order from the alleged harasser?

When someone says shitty things not about you that you saw, you’ve got a tough case there.

Harassment definitely doesn't need to be targeted at an individual. It's about making the environment uncomfortable for someone based on who or what they are. Jaden's a really smart racist because he's about at close to harassment as you can get and still have people defending him.
Well that’s just a ridiculously low bar you’ve set. That’s like saying the straight people eating at chick fil a were harassed by those dudes kissing.

I didn't set it! (probably should have used "intimidating" or "hostile" instead of "uncomfortable"). And I know employment law doesn't apply here, but feel free to point me to the university's definition of harrassment

Quote
. Harassment becomes unlawful where 1) enduring the offensive conduct becomes a condition of continued employment, or 2) the conduct is severe or pervasive enough to create a work environment that a reasonable person would consider intimidating, hostile, or abusive.

https://www.eeoc.gov/harassment

Offline DQ12

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #504 on: July 09, 2020, 09:54:58 AM »
Honest question, do you see any potential problems if there was a rule that said "offensive tweets are punishable by government institutions"?


"You want to stand next to someone and not be able to hear them, walk your ass into Manhattan, Kansas." - [REDACTED]

Offline Trim

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #505 on: July 09, 2020, 09:58:48 AM »
This guy rocketed into some of our awareness with that tweet, but the tweet in a vacuum isn't the harassment and/or thing that has people uneasy at KSU.

Offline catastrophe

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #506 on: July 09, 2020, 10:17:54 AM »
This guy rocketed into some of our awareness with that tweet, but the tweet in a vacuum isn't the harassment and/or thing that has people uneasy at KSU.
But he’s staying in the conversation because a lot of folks are still demanding a pound of flesh.  Kicking that guy out is still the only actual proposal I’ve seen from the crowd who says the University’s latest steps aren’t going far enough.

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #507 on: July 09, 2020, 10:24:56 AM »
Maybe the state should just execute him. Do racists have a right to life?
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline michigancat

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #508 on: July 09, 2020, 10:24:57 AM »
Honest question, do you see any potential problems if there was a rule that said "offensive tweets are punishable by government institutions"?
Yes! Do you consider the university not granting America First Students official club status (or whatever) a "punishment"? What about giving them money for bringing in speakers?

Offline michigancat

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #509 on: July 09, 2020, 10:27:09 AM »
Maybe the state should just execute him. Do racists have a right to life?
You're better than this

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #510 on: July 09, 2020, 10:34:15 AM »
Honest question, do you see any potential problems if there was a rule that said "offensive tweets are punishable by government institutions"?
Yes! Do you consider the university not granting America First Students official club status (or whatever) a "punishment"? What about giving them money for bringing in speakers?
Definitely a closer call, IMO.  Could go either way, really.

I personally don't care much about the student groups/speaker issue though.  No skin off my nose if K-State isn't doling out money to student groups because it doesn't agree with their message.  Just not an issue that would bother me very much.


"You want to stand next to someone and not be able to hear them, walk your ass into Manhattan, Kansas." - [REDACTED]

Offline gatoveintisiete

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #511 on: July 09, 2020, 10:36:06 AM »
Good idealistic liberal (seven) v. complete radicalized psycho (mich)

it’s not like I’m tired of WINNING, but dude, let me catch my breath.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #512 on: July 09, 2020, 10:56:24 AM »
Personally I don't think there is anything to solve. Racist speech should not be punished by the government.

Why not?

Wow


Please sit this out, at the very least until I can get an answer to my question and I can rebut before you freak out about nothing. Thanks.

Because I believe that freedom of speech is the cornerstone of a free society. Yes, there are some pretty specific limitations mostly dealing with breaking the law. I understand that you want to file racism in that category as well but it comes dangerously close to thought crime and that's just not something I can support.

If a person is being threatening or harrasing, that's a different discussion.

I feel like your last sentence is trying to have your cake and eat it too. We rightly have a very broad definition of what's considered gender based harassment, why is it okay to narrow that definition for race? A large part of the reasoning for broadening of the definition of sexual harassment was because it was thought that women weren't being allowed to work and study in environments that weren't openly hostile. What I'm hearing when someone uses the term like "thought crime" is that I don't have the right to walk into my place of work without seeing KKK posters, because your right to put those posters up where I can see them everyday, is more important. Also you're allowing the potential harasser to dictate what they view as harassment. Let's say I walk out of Kedzie Hall and skinhead, ss arm bands, iron cross tattoos, and all walks up to me and says "hey spook, I know who you are and you better watch yourself." Harassment or not? By your definition, it isn't, there was no implied threat. What do you think happens to the university if I report this, they tell me they can't take action because there was no direct or implied threat, then I get either hurt or killed by a skinhead?

As for this specific case, you're getting hung up on the one tweet instead of the history of what this student has done and the environment he's created that led to another student getting a picture of her face in a noose sent to her. He has a documented history of encouraging others to harass other students.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #513 on: July 09, 2020, 10:59:55 AM »
I would think of harassment in terms of, would the aggrieved person have any chance of getting a restraining order from the alleged harasser?

There have been plenty of legal definitions of harassment that falls well short of this, especially in schools and workplaces.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #514 on: July 09, 2020, 11:01:01 AM »
You can't legislate morality

Is there a law that doesn't legislate morality? Are you familiar with what laws are?

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #515 on: July 09, 2020, 11:04:41 AM »
Honest question, do you see any potential problems if there was a rule that said "offensive tweets are punishable by government institutions"?

Why would that rule exist, people's tweets are their words? Why would tweets need to be separately legislated, speech already is?

Offline DQ12

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #516 on: July 09, 2020, 11:08:03 AM »
Honest question, do you see any potential problems if there was a rule that said "offensive tweets are punishable by government institutions"?

Why would that rule exist, people's tweets are their words? Why would tweets need to be separately legislated, speech already is?
Twitter is a pretty unique medium, imo.  But I'll rephrase: Do you see any potential problems if there was a rule that said "offensive speech is punishable by government institutions," where "offensive speech" is defined broadly enough to include things like "offensive tweets"?


"You want to stand next to someone and not be able to hear them, walk your ass into Manhattan, Kansas." - [REDACTED]

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #517 on: July 09, 2020, 11:08:21 AM »
Maybe the state should just execute him. Do racists have a right to life?
You're better than this

Starting to wonder if this conversation is even happening in good faith. When you start sounding like cat27 it may be time to reevaluate your position.

Offline Spracne

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #518 on: July 09, 2020, 11:09:44 AM »
Honest question, do you see any potential problems if there was a rule that said "offensive tweets are punishable by government institutions"?

Why would that rule exist, people's tweets are their words? Why would tweets need to be separately legislated, speech already is?
Twitter is a pretty unique medium, imo.  But I'll rephrase: Do you see any potential problems if there was a rule that said "offensive speech is punishable by government institutions," where "offensive speech" is defined broadly enough to include things like "offensive tweets"?

Seems like a good rule, but only if MIR specifically is offended by the speech. Fragility, smdh.

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #519 on: July 09, 2020, 11:10:37 AM »
Yes, I do think your scenario is sufficient for harassment. Maybe not enough to do anything legally (not a lawyer), but reporting it would at least be a step in establishing a pattern of targeted behavior if it happens again. At the very least I would think those actions are sufficient to be placed on probation or suspension from violation of university policy.

As far as the kkk posters at your workplace, 1) you have the freedom to not work at a place where that is acceptable. 2)the company has the freedom to not allow that and fire the offender. 3) I'm not sure that's even legal given eeo, which I have no problem with.  But once again you're trying to muddle the lines between government censorship and private censorship.
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #520 on: July 09, 2020, 11:14:24 AM »
Honest question, do you see any potential problems if there was a rule that said "offensive tweets are punishable by government institutions"?

Why would that rule exist, people's tweets are their words? Why would tweets need to be separately legislated, speech already is?
Twitter is a pretty unique medium, imo.  But I'll rephrase: Do you see any potential problems if there was a rule that said "offensive speech is punishable by government institutions," where "offensive speech" is defined broadly enough to include things like "offensive tweets"?

Twitter isn't unique, they are written/typed words and should be legislated the same way any other written/typed words are, which, for the most part, are legislated the same way spoken words are. Also stop it with the term "offensive" this is in part what I'm talking about when I say I wonder if this conversation is happening in good faith. No one thinks you should be thrown out of school for offending someone. Using that very narrow language in one tweet made by someone in the heat of the moment is the same thing as limiting the conversation about Jaden to just the George Floyd tweet. This conversation is about figuring out what constitutes harassment.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #521 on: July 09, 2020, 11:18:49 AM »
Honest question, do you see any potential problems if there was a rule that said "offensive tweets are punishable by government institutions"?

Why would that rule exist, people's tweets are their words? Why would tweets need to be separately legislated, speech already is?
Twitter is a pretty unique medium, imo.  But I'll rephrase: Do you see any potential problems if there was a rule that said "offensive speech is punishable by government institutions," where "offensive speech" is defined broadly enough to include things like "offensive tweets"?

Seems like a good rule, but only if MIR specifically is offended by the speech. Fragility, smdh.

You're not nearly close to as clever as you think you are. I haven't said a goddamned thing about being offensive. I live for offending people like you who think that knowing the difference between being offended and being harassed is some erudite thought process.

Offline catastrophe

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #522 on: July 09, 2020, 11:26:36 AM »

I didn't set it! (probably should have used "intimidating" or "hostile" instead of "uncomfortable"). And I know employment law doesn't apply here, but feel free to point me to the university's definition of harrassment

It’s actually pretty robust. Apparently some folks have already put a lot of thought into this thing:

Quote
B.  Harassment: In this Policy, the term “harassment” has two different definitions, the application of which depend on where the alleged conduct takes place and its context. Harassment meeting either of these definitions is discrimination.

1.   In the work, on-campus housing, or other non-academic environments, “harassment” is:

Conduct toward a person or persons based on race, color, ethnic or national origin, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, religion, age, ancestry, disability, genetic information, military status, or veteran status that:                           

         (a) has the purpose or effect of:

               (1) creating an intimidating, hostile, or offensive work environment or on-campus housing environment for the person(s); or

               (2) unreasonably interfering with the work, or on-campus housing, of the person(s); and

         (b) is sufficiently severe or pervasive that it alters the terms, conditions, or privileges of a person’s employment, use of on-campus housing, academic opportunities or participation in university-sponsored activities.

2.   In the academic environment, “harassment” is:

Conduct toward a person or persons based on race, color, ethnic or national origin, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, religion, age, ancestry, disability, genetic information, military status, or veteran status that:

         (a) has the purpose and effect of:

                (1) creating an intimidating, hostile, or offensive educational environment for the person(s); or

                (2) unreasonably interfering with the academic performance or participation in any university-sponsored activity of the person; or

                (3) threatening the academic opportunities of the person; and

        (b) is sufficiently severe or pervasive that it alters the terms, conditions, or privileges of the person’s academic opportunities or participation in university-sponsored activities.

Whether conduct is sufficient to constitute “harassment” is evaluated under the totality of the circumstances, including the frequency of the conduct, its severity, whether it is physically threatening or humiliating, or merely an offensive utterance.  These factors are evaluated from both subjective and objective viewpoints, considering not only effect that conduct actually had on the person, but also the impact it would likely have had on a reasonable person in the same situation.  The conduct must subjectively and objectively meet the definition to be “harassment” to be a violation of this Policy.  Repeated incidents, even where each would not, on its own, constitute harassment, may collectively constitute harassment.

Depending on the circumstances, some occurrences may require evaluation under both definitions.

https://www.k-state.edu/policies/ppm/3000/3010.html

Offline DQ12

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #523 on: July 09, 2020, 11:39:22 AM »
Honest question, do you see any potential problems if there was a rule that said "offensive tweets are punishable by government institutions"?

Why would that rule exist, people's tweets are their words? Why would tweets need to be separately legislated, speech already is?
Twitter is a pretty unique medium, imo.  But I'll rephrase: Do you see any potential problems if there was a rule that said "offensive speech is punishable by government institutions," where "offensive speech" is defined broadly enough to include things like "offensive tweets"?

Twitter isn't unique, they are written/typed words and should be legislated the same way any other written/typed words are, which, for the most part, are legislated the same way spoken words are. Also stop it with the term "offensive" this is in part what I'm talking about when I say I wonder if this conversation is happening in good faith. No one thinks you should be thrown out of school for offending someone. Using that very narrow language in one tweet made by someone in the heat of the moment is the same thing as limiting the conversation about Jaden to just the George Floyd tweet. This conversation is about figuring out what constitutes harassment.
The conversation turned to the tweet:

A lot of racist speech is threatening or harassing. I think Jaden's tweet comes pretty close to harassment.
Then Rusty went on about how the tweet probably constitutes harassment.  Hence -- my question regarding twitter and offensive tweets.  I promise I'm not discussing any of this in bad faith.  I'm just trying to track the conversation as best I can.

FTR, I do think Jaden giving a call to arms to his trolls in an effort to get them to brigade k-state students probably fits the definition of harassment.



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Offline Rage Against the McKee

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Re: Athletes Forcing Change
« Reply #524 on: July 09, 2020, 11:42:09 AM »
People pretty clearly feel harassed by the tweet and Jayden pretty clearly doesn't care. I'm really not sure how one could come to the conclusion that the tweet wasn't intended to harass a specific segment of the population.