Author Topic: Seize The Means Of Production (a tiny little baby bit)  (Read 2919 times)

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Offline Justwin

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Re: Seize The Means Of Production (a tiny little baby bit)
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2020, 09:49:48 PM »


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I would not be opposed to having a two tiered system where students can opt in to a system to profit off their likeness and be taxed or stay pure amateur and not be

Why do they need to be taxed? They aren't employees, want to tax college athletes, pay them wages.

They should be taxed as any other student would be taxed.  Not more and not less.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Seize The Means Of Production (a tiny little baby bit)
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2020, 01:04:42 AM »
Any other student wouldn't have the university taking a cut of what they earned using their own name or image.

Offline Justwin

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Re: Seize The Means Of Production (a tiny little baby bit)
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2020, 09:06:05 AM »
Any other student wouldn't have the university taking a cut of what they earned using their own name or image.

Are you saying that in order to profit from their likeness, they have to give a percentage to the university?

Regardless, from a tax standpoint, they should be taxed on earnings they get from their likeness, name, image, etc.  They should be taxed on scholarships amounts that go towards things other than tuition, fees and books.  They should not be taxed on scholarship amounts that go towards tuition, fees and books.  This is how it is for any other student.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Seize The Means Of Production (a tiny little baby bit)
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2020, 11:34:32 AM »
Any other student wouldn't have the university taking a cut of what they earned using their own name or image.

Are you saying that in order to profit from their likeness, they have to give a percentage to the university?

Regardless, from a tax standpoint, they should be taxed on earnings they get from their likeness, name, image, etc.  They should be taxed on scholarships amounts that go towards things other than tuition, fees and books.  They should not be taxed on scholarship amounts that go towards tuition, fees and books.  This is how it is for any other student.

No what I'm saying is that under the model that's likely to be used, most of what students will get through NIL will be filtered through the universities because players don't/won't have licensing rights. Apparel and memorabilia will be sold thought the schools licensing deal, meaning the players won't have control over how they are licenced or what their cut is. The universities would be getting the money and simply giving the players the cut they deserve. In this instance the university would be taxed, not the player, not unless you think double taxes should be applied to the same cut of money.

If the player uses NIL to give lessons then they would be an independent contactor, and would be taxed as much as they are willing to pay, identical to the student getting paid to tutor a middle school algebra student.

A player getting paid for an endorsement, like the independent contactor, would be responsible for paying their own taxes on what they earn. An endorser isn't paid and taxed like an employee because they aren't an employee.

So to wrap this up, to do what LN proposed would require the country to change its tax code, to the detriment of anyone who is an independent contactor.

Offline Justwin

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Re: Seize The Means Of Production (a tiny little baby bit)
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2020, 06:59:02 PM »
Any other student wouldn't have the university taking a cut of what they earned using their own name or image.

Are you saying that in order to profit from their likeness, they have to give a percentage to the university?

Regardless, from a tax standpoint, they should be taxed on earnings they get from their likeness, name, image, etc.  They should be taxed on scholarships amounts that go towards things other than tuition, fees and books.  They should not be taxed on scholarship amounts that go towards tuition, fees and books.  This is how it is for any other student.

No what I'm saying is that under the model that's likely to be used, most of what students will get through NIL will be filtered through the universities because players don't/won't have licensing rights. Apparel and memorabilia will be sold thought the schools licensing deal, meaning the players won't have control over how they are licenced or what their cut is. The universities would be getting the money and simply giving the players the cut they deserve. In this instance the university would be taxed, not the player, not unless you think double taxes should be applied to the same cut of money.

If the player uses NIL to give lessons then they would be an independent contactor, and would be taxed as much as they are willing to pay, identical to the student getting paid to tutor a middle school algebra student.

A player getting paid for an endorsement, like the independent contactor, would be responsible for paying their own taxes on what they earn. An endorser isn't paid and taxed like an employee because they aren't an employee.

So to wrap this up, to do what LN proposed would require the country to change its tax code, to the detriment of anyone who is an independent contactor.

I'm not really sure what you're envisioning, but anything the university passed on to the student athlete would not be taxed at the university level.  That income would be taxed at the individual level.    Universities, though, in general, are not being taxed so I'm not even sure what you're referring to in terms of a university being taxed.

So all in all, student athletes should be taxed like any other student.  Not more and not less.  Glad we agree.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Seize The Means Of Production (a tiny little baby bit)
« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2020, 02:41:59 AM »
Any other student wouldn't have the university taking a cut of what they earned using their own name or image.

Are you saying that in order to profit from their likeness, they have to give a percentage to the university?

Regardless, from a tax standpoint, they should be taxed on earnings they get from their likeness, name, image, etc.  They should be taxed on scholarships amounts that go towards things other than tuition, fees and books.  They should not be taxed on scholarship amounts that go towards tuition, fees and books.  This is how it is for any other student.

No what I'm saying is that under the model that's likely to be used, most of what students will get through NIL will be filtered through the universities because players don't/won't have licensing rights. Apparel and memorabilia will be sold thought the schools licensing deal, meaning the players won't have control over how they are licenced or what their cut is. The universities would be getting the money and simply giving the players the cut they deserve. In this instance the university would be taxed, not the player, not unless you think double taxes should be applied to the same cut of money.

If the player uses NIL to give lessons then they would be an independent contactor, and would be taxed as much as they are willing to pay, identical to the student getting paid to tutor a middle school algebra student.

A player getting paid for an endorsement, like the independent contactor, would be responsible for paying their own taxes on what they earn. An endorser isn't paid and taxed like an employee because they aren't an employee.

So to wrap this up, to do what LN proposed would require the country to change its tax code, to the detriment of anyone who is an independent contactor.

I'm not really sure what you're envisioning, but anything the university passed on to the student athlete would not be taxed at the university level.  That income would be taxed at the individual level.    Universities, though, in general, are not being taxed so I'm not even sure what you're referring to in terms of a university being taxed.

So all in all, student athletes should be taxed like any other student.  Not more and not less.  Glad we agree.

Let me simplify this for you. Student-Athletes potentially getting money from NIL aren't earning income from the university because they would not be university employees, Jesus rough ridin' christ, it isn't rocket science. Before you reply look up the definition of the word income, then brush up on the various NIL proposals and tell me if any of them talk about athletes becoming university employees.

Offline ChiComCat

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Re: Seize The Means Of Production (a tiny little baby bit)
« Reply #31 on: May 18, 2020, 08:11:11 AM »
Tax their likeness money or whatever but no reason to touch their scholarship.

Offline Justwin

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Re: Seize The Means Of Production (a tiny little baby bit)
« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2020, 09:47:39 AM »
Any other student wouldn't have the university taking a cut of what they earned using their own name or image.

Are you saying that in order to profit from their likeness, they have to give a percentage to the university?

Regardless, from a tax standpoint, they should be taxed on earnings they get from their likeness, name, image, etc.  They should be taxed on scholarships amounts that go towards things other than tuition, fees and books.  They should not be taxed on scholarship amounts that go towards tuition, fees and books.  This is how it is for any other student.

No what I'm saying is that under the model that's likely to be used, most of what students will get through NIL will be filtered through the universities because players don't/won't have licensing rights. Apparel and memorabilia will be sold thought the schools licensing deal, meaning the players won't have control over how they are licenced or what their cut is. The universities would be getting the money and simply giving the players the cut they deserve. In this instance the university would be taxed, not the player, not unless you think double taxes should be applied to the same cut of money.

If the player uses NIL to give lessons then they would be an independent contactor, and would be taxed as much as they are willing to pay, identical to the student getting paid to tutor a middle school algebra student.

A player getting paid for an endorsement, like the independent contactor, would be responsible for paying their own taxes on what they earn. An endorser isn't paid and taxed like an employee because they aren't an employee.

So to wrap this up, to do what LN proposed would require the country to change its tax code, to the detriment of anyone who is an independent contactor.

I'm not really sure what you're envisioning, but anything the university passed on to the student athlete would not be taxed at the university level.  That income would be taxed at the individual level.    Universities, though, in general, are not being taxed so I'm not even sure what you're referring to in terms of a university being taxed.

So all in all, student athletes should be taxed like any other student.  Not more and not less.  Glad we agree.

Let me simplify this for you. Student-Athletes potentially getting money from NIL aren't earning income from the university because they would not be university employees, Jesus rough ridin' christ, it isn't rocket science. Before you reply look up the definition of the word income, then brush up on the various NIL proposals and tell me if any of them talk about athletes becoming university employees.

You are the one that started talking about universities taking a cut and double taxation, not me.  My response to LickNeckey was pretty simple in stating that student athletes should not be treated differently than other students when it comes to scholarships and taxation.  Whatever they receive that is above tuition, fees and books should be taxed.  Universities are not going to be paying taxes on anything before they distribute it to student athletes, so they need to pay taxes on it.  The federal government or the IRS may need to clarify if this counts as earned income and needs to be subject to self-employment taxes.  My sense is that it will be self-employment income, so student athletes will owe 15.3% to the federal government at a minimum.  Whether or not they owe individual income taxes obviously will depend on whether their total income is higher than the standard deduction.

The income generated on their own from blogs, YouTube channels, etc. is clearly self-employment income as you stated.  As a note on this, student athletes are already allowed to give lessons and coach youth sports.  The key is that it cannot be an opportunity not available to a general student.  Additionally, it cannot be at above-market rates.  The only change now is that they can charge above market rates.  A caveat on this is that a high school student athlete cannot be paid to give lessons and coach a kid before they go to a school as far as I am aware.  I don't know if the new rules change this or not.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Seize The Means Of Production (a tiny little baby bit)
« Reply #33 on: May 18, 2020, 02:16:00 PM »
We agree on all of that, I said it would be up to the student athlete to pay their own taxes for a lot of this. The part where double taxation came in was on the thought that the athlete should pay tax on revenue earned from the university licensing the athletes name and likeness. I'm not 100% sure that athletic departments aren't taxed on the licensing deals they make and the merchandise they sell from those deals, but if you say they aren't, I'll take your word for it. What I definitely know is that the student athlete can't, won't, and shouldn't be taxed off of any cut of revenue they receive from a university licensing deal.

The greater point is that absolutely no amateur status should be tied to whether an athlete is paying taxes on NIL. They should be subject to the same tax laws that everyone else should be and nothing else should be tied to that. There are very tangible repercussions to tying amateur status to whatever a student athlete does with NIL. The best example is individual sport athletes having to lose their amateur status, because they want to give some lessons. There are sports like golf, tennis, and track and field that have broader opportunities to compete and develop as an amateur outside of the scope of the NCAA.

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Re: Seize The Means Of Production (a tiny little baby bit)
« Reply #34 on: October 09, 2020, 09:28:41 AM »
https://www.si.com/college/2020/10/07/usc-and-its-dying-linebackers


Not sure where to put this, but student athlete health related.


Tom

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Offline Katpappy

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Re: Seize The Means Of Production (a tiny little baby bit)
« Reply #35 on: October 09, 2020, 06:46:35 PM »


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SOB Pub is worried that some kids might get paid for what they're worth, instead of being a rough ridin' thief like him.
Hot time in Kat town tonight.