Author Topic: 2020 General Election Thread  (Read 3896 times)

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Online MakeItRain

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Re: 2020 General Election Thread
« Reply #125 on: May 15, 2020, 09:44:12 PM »
That you're acting like you or anyone else ever took her claims the least bit seriously, and this represents some turning point. Why would we care what Biden staffers have to say? The fact that her Biden story has changed, a lot, isn't new, and falsely accusing others doesn't mean that she couldn't actually be assaulted by someone else, at least that's what we've been hearing from liberals previously.

Also her claims have been scrutinized much more than those of other accusers.

i took her allegation seriously, although i never found it terribly convincing.  many others did as well.  these articles exist because reporters took her claims seriously and investigated them.

These articles exist because there was an immediate campaign to discredit the claims. The amount of the scrutiny given her claims is unprecedented. If it's your claim that this scrutiny is due to her claims being taken seriously, then the inverse has to be true. The lack of investigative vigor given to the claims from accusers of other high profile politicians is because the same media didn't take these other claims as seriously. However, they were taken seriously enough to slap the accusations directly on the accused.

For the record, I do think Reade is exaggerating. I also think that she has spent years telling people that Biden made her uncomfortable, because he did, he just didn't get anything close to putting his hand up her skirt and penetrating her. However, Biden is absolutely hiding something. There is no other explanation for him allowing his campaign to review those University of Delaware files, but won't release them publicly.

Offline Kat Kid

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Re: 2020 General Election Thread
« Reply #126 on: May 15, 2020, 09:49:57 PM »
There are only two people that know what happened between Joe Biden and Tara Reade on that day. Given Biden’s current state, we may have to round that number down a bit.

The one thing we can definitely say is that Joe Biden has several other women that have accused him of sexual harassment and literal reels of videotape of him committing what would get most of us fired if not criminally charged.

If people want to go ahead and make the argument that they don’t care about it or Trump has more sexual assault accusations so on balance Biden is better, it would be a hell of a lot more honest.
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Offline sys

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Re: 2020 General Election Thread
« Reply #127 on: May 15, 2020, 09:58:40 PM »
the idea that the npr piece or the vox article from a week or so ago were biased against reade is pretty ridiculous (the politico piece may well have been, but the information presented still makes it hard to consider reade credible).

the notion that trying to corroborate her story or reporting the inability to do so is somehow undue or untoward is borderline insane.


people that give every indication of knowing what they're talking about say that there would not be any personnel records in biden's senate records.  the reason why he won't request they be unsealed is almost certainly the same reason he placed the condition they not be made public until his retirement in the first place - the papers include information having nothing to do with an obscure former aide that would be politically damaging.
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Offline sys

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Re: 2020 General Election Thread
« Reply #128 on: May 15, 2020, 10:06:28 PM »
There are only two people that know what happened between Joe Biden and Tara Reade on that day. Given Biden’s current state, we may have to round that number down a bit.

The one thing we can definitely say is that Joe Biden has several other women that have accused him of sexual harassment and literal reels of videotape of him committing what would get most of us fired if not criminally charged.

If people want to go ahead and make the argument that they don’t care about it or Trump has more sexual assault accusations so on balance Biden is better, it would be a hell of a lot more honest.

it's important to be clear about two different classes of behavior.

there is the behavior numerous women have said biden has engaged in, that has been captured on video and that biden has admitted to doing.  there is no question that these things happened and no one, afaik, has claimed that they didn't.  it is very possible that something of that nature also happened with reade.

then there is the allegation of sexual assault/rape that has only been alleged by reade.  i'm not going to recapitulate the litany of reasons why that allegation is improbable, the articles linked earlier do that.



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Online MakeItRain

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Re: 2020 General Election Thread
« Reply #129 on: May 15, 2020, 10:16:10 PM »
the idea that the npr piece or the vox article from a week or so ago were biased against reade is pretty ridiculous

No one made that claim so I have no idea why you brought it up.

the notion that trying to corroborate her story or reporting the inability to do so is somehow undue or untoward is borderline insane.
Again no one claimed this either.

You said that the articles were written because her claims were taken seriously. I showed the juxtaposition of how well her claims were vetted when compared to other high profile accusations. Again if your claim is true, the inverse about the other claims have to be true, unless YOU are claiming there was widespread media bias in the other claims. I was fine with the histories of the other accusers not drug out for public consumption, the same should have happened here.

people that give every indication of knowing what they're talking about say that there would not be any personnel records in biden's senate records.  the reason why he won't request they be unsealed is almost certainly the same reason he placed the condition they not be made public until his retirement in the first place - the papers include information having nothing to do with an obscure former aide that would be politically damaging.

Once he allowed civilians working on his campaign to view those files he lost any credible claims for them to remain sealed, obviously nothing there is classified. Again, this is hypocrisy, as I can guarantee I can find a quote from him about Trump's tax returns.

Offline sys

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Re: 2020 General Election Thread
« Reply #130 on: May 15, 2020, 10:22:35 PM »
the idea that the npr piece or the vox article from a week or so ago were biased against reade is pretty ridiculous

No one made that claim so I have no idea why you brought it up.

the notion that trying to corroborate her story or reporting the inability to do so is somehow undue or untoward is borderline insane.
Again no one claimed this either.

i have no idea what you were objecting to in that case.


Once he allowed civilians working on his campaign to view those files he lost any credible claims for them to remain sealed, obviously nothing there is classified. Again, this is hypocrisy, as I can guarantee I can find a quote from him about Trump's tax returns.

i didn't say anything about classified information.  again, you're off on some tangent i don't understand.
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Online MakeItRain

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Re: 2020 General Election Thread
« Reply #131 on: May 15, 2020, 10:29:05 PM »
I told you exactly what I objected to, I've told you twice, you made the decision to cut it out. You have the right to ignore my objection to your hypocritical claims, but don't tell me you didn't read it.

re., the senate records, you're making excuses as to why there is no need for them to be publicly released. There are no excuses, he's already allowed hand picked members of the public to read those files, there should be nothing to hide.

Offline sys

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Re: 2020 General Election Thread
« Reply #132 on: May 15, 2020, 11:12:31 PM »
I told you exactly what I objected to, I've told you twice, you made the decision to cut it out. You have the right to ignore my objection to your hypocritical claims, but don't tell me you didn't read it.

i promise you i am not being deliberately obtuse nor am i ignoring your commentary.  as nearly as i can summarize your argument it is:  "i don't believe reade's accusation of rape and i don't find her to be a credible person; however it is hypocritical and unfair that her allegations were investigated so rigorously that i was able to make that determination."

i do not understand that.


re., the senate records, you're making excuses as to why there is no need for them to be publicly released. There are no excuses, he's already allowed hand picked members of the public to read those files, there should be nothing to hide.

again, i find your logic to be unfollowable.  i don't know if your assertion that he allowed some people in his campaign to go through his papers to be true, but assuming it is - you appear to be suggesting that if biden considers it advisable to allow anyone to view his papers, he should be comfortable allowing everyone to do so.

that makes no sense.  there is every reason to think that there are things in those papers that he wishes to hide.  he chose to hide them years ago when he donated the papers, he reaffirmed that choice when he left the white house and he is doing so again now.  he's trying to win the most important election of his life, if there is anything that might damage that chance in those papers, and again, it seems very likely he thinks there is, why in the world would he voluntarily choose to share it now?

knowledgeable people unconnected with his campaign have explained that his papers would not have personnel records.  reade herself has stated that she did not file a complaint of sexual assault or rape.  accordingly, there is no reason to think there is anything relevant to reade's allegations in those papers.

why, then, should he voluntarily release papers that presumably include information that he thinks might damage his electoral chances when the papers in question are not relevant to reade's accusation?
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Online MakeItRain

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Re: 2020 General Election Thread
« Reply #133 on: May 15, 2020, 11:54:54 PM »
This is two conversations, I will isolate my now twice listed objection to the first part of this conversation. They have nothing to do with how believable Reade is, I shouldn't have even devoted the two sentences I did to that like 5 posts ago. The objection was to this sentence that you typed

Quote
these articles exist because reporters took her claims seriously and investigated them.

My reply to that

Quote
These articles exist because there was an immediate campaign to discredit the claims. The amount of the scrutiny given her claims is unprecedented. If it's your claim that this scrutiny is due to her claims being taken seriously, then the inverse has to be true. The lack of investigative vigor given to the claims from accusers of other high profile politicians is because the same media didn't take these other claims as seriously. However, they were taken seriously enough to slap the accusations directly on the accused.

Quote
You said that the articles were written because her claims were taken seriously. I showed the juxtaposition of how well her claims were vetted when compared to other high profile accusations. Again if your claim is true, the inverse about the other claims have to be true, unless YOU are claiming there was widespread media bias in the other claims. I was fine with the histories of the other accusers not drug out for public consumption, the same should have happened here.

One thing I'll add that I didn't before but kk kinda did in a different context is that if her claims were taken seriously, the other claims about Biden would be mentioned in every single article that casts doubt on her claims. Neither of them are great victims.


Now for the senate files, you absolutely followed my logic perfectly. So much so in fact that I don't have to summarize it again, you nailed it.

I have two points, one I haven't made yet because I didn't realize it until I read your summation of my other posts.

If we are acknowledging there are damaging things to his candidacy in those files, how in the world can we take anyone's word that the damaging info isn't related to Reade? They are telling you, there's bad stuff in those files, maybe things disqualifying, but not about Reade, and we're just supposed to believe that without proof? That's insane.

If there are damaging things in that file, you are correct he has no obligation to make that info public, it's just that he and the party he represents has spent the last five years arguing for full transparency from a once presidential candidate, now president. That transparency they were seeking was from a private individual. The transparency they are now shielding is from a public servant from when he was an elected official. I know the democrats don't care about hypocrisy, but that's an all timer.

BTW, he did instruct his aides to check those files
https://www.businessinsider.com/biden-refuses-open-senate-papers-accusers-claims-2020-4
That used to be free, now it's behind a paywall, but you can see the details of the report here
https://nypost.com/2020/05/01/joe-bidens-staff-accessed-records-at-university-of-delawares-library/

Offline sys

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Re: 2020 General Election Thread
« Reply #134 on: May 16, 2020, 12:38:32 AM »
One thing I'll add that I didn't before but kk kinda did in a different context is that if her claims were taken seriously, the other claims about Biden would be mentioned in every single article that casts doubt on her claims. Neither of them are great victims.

the accounts of other women were mentioned, extensively, in the npr article and the vox article.  the reason they do not feature even more prominently is; 1) because they are categorically different in nature and 2) because they are not in dispute.

regarding your other point, the idea that reade's account has been overinvestigated or that it should be underinvestigated if other women's allegations have been is nonsensical.  there is no connection between any other allegation and reade's.  there is no connection between biden's guilt or lack thereof and any other person's.


Now for the senate files, you absolutely followed my logic perfectly. So much so in fact that I don't have to summarize it again, you nailed it.

I have two points, one I haven't made yet because I didn't realize it until I read your summation of my other posts.

If there are damaging things in that file, you are correct he has no obligation to make that info public, it's just that he and the party he represents has spent the last five years arguing for full transparency from a once presidential candidate, now president. That transparency they were seeking was from a private individual. The transparency they are now shielding is from a public servant from when he was an elected official. I know the democrats don't care about hypocrisy, but that's an all timer.


i cut out a point to respond to below.  regarding the rest, i think we can put it to rest with nothing more than we disagree on the notion that a political candidate should make available whatever information requested if they are accused of anything, by anyone, regardless if it is germane to the accusation.


If we are acknowledging there are damaging things to his candidacy in those files, how in the world can we take anyone's word that the damaging info isn't related to Reade? They are telling you, there's bad stuff in those files, maybe things disqualifying, but not about Reade, and we're just supposed to believe that without proof? That's insane.

because the people are saying that the entire category of information relevant to the accusation is never included in a senator's personal papers and because the accuser herself has stated that she did not file a report that would corroborate her account.  it would be a search, in the wrong place, for something that has never been claimed to exist.
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Offline Trim

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Re: 2020 General Election Thread
« Reply #135 on: May 21, 2020, 02:29:38 AM »

Offline memphis

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Re: 2020 General Election Thread
« Reply #136 on: May 21, 2020, 07:47:48 AM »
?s=20

Offline porky morgan

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Re: 2020 General Election Thread
« Reply #137 on: May 21, 2020, 10:01:37 AM »

Online MakeItRain

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Re: 2020 General Election Thread
« Reply #138 on: May 22, 2020, 10:47:29 AM »
Democrats, lol

Online star seed 7

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Re: 2020 General Election Thread
« Reply #139 on: May 22, 2020, 10:50:07 AM »
Such a stupid thing to say
Hyperbolic partisan duplicitous hypocrite

Offline mocat

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Re: 2020 General Election Thread
« Reply #140 on: May 22, 2020, 10:52:41 AM »
Oof

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: 2020 General Election Thread
« Reply #141 on: May 22, 2020, 11:55:43 AM »

Online MakeItRain

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Re: 2020 General Election Thread
« Reply #142 on: May 22, 2020, 12:23:24 PM »

Online MakeItRain

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Re: 2020 General Election Thread
« Reply #143 on: May 22, 2020, 12:29:33 PM »
The worst part of this are the MAGA roaches crawling out trying to claim some moral high ground, followed closely by the neolibs acting like this is somehow the fault of progressives.

Offline memphis

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Re: 2020 General Election Thread
« Reply #144 on: May 22, 2020, 12:32:15 PM »
The worst part of this are the MAGA roaches crawling out trying to claim some moral high ground, followed closely by the neolibs acting like this is somehow the fault of progressives.

What's the neoliberalism play on this? I hadn't seen that yet.

Offline sonofdaxjones

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2020 General Election Thread
« Reply #145 on: May 22, 2020, 12:35:19 PM »
The worst part of this are the MAGA roaches crawling out trying to claim some moral high ground, followed closely by the neolibs acting like this is somehow the fault of progressives.
Progressives have the greatest dictatorial leanings of any faction of Democrats.  So if that’s your self proclaimed high ground, no thanks.

Online MakeItRain

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Re: 2020 General Election Thread
« Reply #146 on: May 22, 2020, 12:45:21 PM »
The worst part of this are the MAGA roaches crawling out trying to claim some moral high ground, followed closely by the neolibs acting like this is somehow the fault of progressives.

What's the neoliberalism play on this? I hadn't seen that yet.

There are two, it's the progressives fault or it's no big deal. I'll focus on the people blaming progressives because it's surreal


Online MakeItRain

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Re: 2020 General Election Thread
« Reply #147 on: May 22, 2020, 12:48:36 PM »
The worst part of this are the MAGA roaches crawling out trying to claim some moral high ground, followed closely by the neolibs acting like this is somehow the fault of progressives.
Progressives have the greatest dictatorial leanings of any faction of Democrats.  So if that’s your self proclaimed high ground, no thanks.

No one's talking about dictatorial leanings, you senile humanity blight, I was talking about how racist you and the rest of you MAGAs are. Keep up gramps.

Offline sonofdaxjones

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Re: 2020 General Election Thread
« Reply #148 on: May 22, 2020, 01:03:08 PM »
The worst part of this are the MAGA roaches crawling out trying to claim some moral high ground, followed closely by the neolibs acting like this is somehow the fault of progressives.
Progressives have the greatest dictatorial leanings of any faction of Democrats.  So if that’s your self proclaimed high ground, no thanks.

No one's talking about dictatorial leanings, you senile humanity blight, I was talking about how racist you and the rest of you MAGAs are. Keep up gramps.
I knew exactly what you were talking about. No one is claiming the high ground dipshit.  Just pointing out that Joe Biden just showed exactly who he’s always been.


Joe is trying to play to the ProgressoNazi’s and guess what? His stripes haven’t changed.   It’s the worst of all worlds:  The ProgressoNazi’s and the war monger racists.

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Re: 2020 General Election Thread
« Reply #149 on: May 22, 2020, 11:03:21 PM »
"The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks"

https://blockstream.info/block/000000000019d6689c085ae165831e934ff763ae46a2a6c172b3f1b60a8ce26f