Author Topic: Who is brave enough to be honest about Israel and the Democrat Party?  (Read 4798 times)

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Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Who is brave enough to be honest about Israel and the Democrat Party?
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2019, 04:07:50 PM »
i do think omar's tweet was slightly antisemitic, but i'm more interested in how it was super stupid.  if you think american politicians are pro-israel because of donations you're very delusional.

Let's explore this. You're clearly splitting hairs here. I do think there are a lot of liberal politicians viewpoints on Israel are influenced by lobbyists. I think a lot of Republicans viewpoints on Israel are influenced by Islamaphobia. There was no pro Zion push from Republicans until 9/12/2001.
Yes there was, from evangelicals.

Um, with some, definitely not all. I might be the only liberal on this board who was raised Southern Baptist, yes even in Garden City. I literally left the church because I got old enough to understand the negative slant some religious leaders took on Jews, in churches I attended in GC and Oklahoma.

The following link does speak to the long time marriage out evangelicals and Jews that you mentioned. However, it does mention the universal acceptance in the late 20th century. I think this is due to the Republicans becoming the religion of evangelicals and the fear of Islam occupation of the West Bank.

https://www.americamagazine.org/politics-society/2017/12/11/understanding-evangelical-obsession-israel

Quote
Dispensationalism has a centuries-long history and enjoys widespread acceptance among American Christians. The 19th century Bible teacher John Nelson Darby is considered to be the father of dispensationalism. His views were codified in and popularized by the Scofield Reference Bible. This theology spread throughout America in the 1800s with the help of evangelists such as Dwight L. Moody, but it was catapulted to new levels of popularity in the mid- to late-20th century.

This article is not about evangelicals but about Israel and Republicans
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-the-gop-became-a-pro-israel-party/

Offline michigancat

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Re: Who is brave enough to be honest about Israel and the Democrat Party?
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2019, 04:10:38 PM »
Let's explore this. You're clearly splitting hairs here. I do think there are a lot of liberal politicians viewpoints on Israel are influenced by lobbyists. I think a lot of Republicans viewpoints on Israel are influenced by Islamaphobia. There was no pro Zion push from Republicans until 9/12/2001.

89% of americans support israel.  not only that, but it's a fairly salient issue.  for a not insignificant fraction of voters it is their most important issue.

sane politicians don't go against the overwhelming opinion of their voters.

I think PAC money impacts Israeli support among the public, too. There's some nuance into how lobbyists work and public opinions are formed. I would guess the defense lobby influences Israeli opinion as well.

Also I think whatever stat you quoted was pretty misleading, this shows "favorability" at 74%. (Which is still high to be sure, but somewhat different from "support").

https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/poll-results-americans-favor-israel-at-highest-rates-since-1990s-1.5905998

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Who is brave enough to be honest about Israel and the Democrat Party?
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2019, 04:14:59 PM »
Let's explore this. You're clearly splitting hairs here. I do think there are a lot of liberal politicians viewpoints on Israel are influenced by lobbyists. I think a lot of Republicans viewpoints on Israel are influenced by Islamaphobia. There was no pro Zion push from Republicans until 9/12/2001.

89% of americans support israel.  not only that, but it's a fairly salient issue.  for a not insignificant fraction of voters it is their most important issue.

sane politicians don't go against the overwhelming opinion of their voters.

I don't even know what "supporting Israel" means in the context of this conversation, hell in any context. I would assume that supporting Israel means you believe Israel should exist. I'm sure that over 89% of Americans support America but think that lobbyists have undue influence on our politics. It would be very easy for a politician to have a pro Israel stance yet not agree with every single foreign policy stance they take.

Offline K-S-U-Wildcats!

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Re: Who is brave enough to be honest about Israel and the Democrat Party?
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2019, 04:27:17 PM »
Anybody mention yet that Ilhan Omar (D) likely married her brother?
I've said it before and I'll say it again, K-State fans could have beheaded the entire KU team at midcourt, and K-State fans would be celebrating it this morning.  They are the ISIS of Big 12 fanbases.

Offline bucket

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Re: Who is brave enough to be honest about Israel and the Democrat Party?
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2019, 04:31:51 PM »
My only concern is why single out AIPAC? I hate lobbying as a whole.

Offline sys

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Re: Who is brave enough to be honest about Israel and the Democrat Party?
« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2019, 04:34:20 PM »
I think PAC money impacts Israeli support among the public, too. There's some nuance into how lobbyists work and public opinions are formed. I would guess the defense lobby influences Israeli opinion as well.

Also I think whatever stat you quoted was pretty misleading

i saw it on twitter somewhere this morning.  i can't recall where.

at some point pro-israel sentiment and pro-israel policy become self-reinforcing.  but that point was a long, long time in the past.  if you want me to believe that money is a significant factor in influencing either, i need to see some data.
we understand it better now that the american century is over and some of us sound more and more like serbs.

Offline sys

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Re: Who is brave enough to be honest about Israel and the Democrat Party?
« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2019, 04:35:35 PM »
It would be very easy for a politician to have a pro Israel stance yet not agree with every single foreign policy stance they take.

lots of politicians do that.
we understand it better now that the american century is over and some of us sound more and more like serbs.

Offline sys

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Re: Who is brave enough to be honest about Israel and the Democrat Party?
« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2019, 04:37:25 PM »
this is a good tweet.

we understand it better now that the american century is over and some of us sound more and more like serbs.

Offline ChiCat

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Re: Who is brave enough to be honest about Israel and the Democrat Party?
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2019, 04:38:19 PM »
Anybody mention yet that Ilhan Omar (D) likely married her brother?

Is anybody going to mention a baseless claim lacking any supporting evidence?  Yes.  A resident Trumper reliably will.

Offline sys

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Re: Who is brave enough to be honest about Israel and the Democrat Party?
« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2019, 04:51:27 PM »
just to use one headlining example.  for the 2018 race, beto raised 79 million and got 227k from pro-israel sources.  cruz raised 45 million and got 353k from pro-israel sources.

apart from any other considerations - that's not even very much money.

https://www.opensecrets.org/races/summary?cycle=2018&id=TXS2
https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/summary.php?ind=Q05&cycle=2018&recipdetail=S&mem=N
we understand it better now that the american century is over and some of us sound more and more like serbs.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Who is brave enough to be honest about Israel and the Democrat Party?
« Reply #35 on: February 11, 2019, 04:58:30 PM »
just to use one headlining example.  for the 2018 race, beto raised 79 million and got 227k from pro-israel sources.  cruz raised 45 million and got 353k from pro-israel sources.

apart from any other considerations - that's not even very much money.

https://www.opensecrets.org/races/summary?cycle=2018&id=TXS2
https://www.opensecrets.org/industries/summary.php?ind=Q05&cycle=2018&recipdetail=S&mem=N

This is a very similar argument that pro NRA people make. 353K is a significant amount of money and it's also, like the NRA, coupled with a strong marketing arm. Who the hell wants to be labeled antisemitic because you think Bibi is an extremist?

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Who is brave enough to be honest about Israel and the Democrat Party?
« Reply #36 on: February 11, 2019, 05:00:01 PM »
My only concern is why single out AIPAC? I hate lobbying as a whole.

That's the thing, she didn't, they jumped on.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Who is brave enough to be honest about Israel and the Democrat Party?
« Reply #37 on: February 11, 2019, 05:01:49 PM »
Anybody mention yet that Ilhan Omar (D) likely married her brother?

Is anybody going to mention a baseless claim lacking any supporting evidence?  Yes.  A resident Trumper reliably will.

Luckily sys, rusty, and chingon have driven this to a rational conversation and moved it past ksuw's wack job conspiracies and dax's hypocrisy.

Offline sys

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Re: Who is brave enough to be honest about Israel and the Democrat Party?
« Reply #38 on: February 11, 2019, 05:11:29 PM »
This is a very similar argument that pro NRA people make.

and they're right about that too.  politicians aren't afraid of nra money, they're afraid of nra voters.
we understand it better now that the american century is over and some of us sound more and more like serbs.

Offline chum1

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Re: Who is brave enough to be honest about Israel and the Democrat Party?
« Reply #39 on: February 11, 2019, 05:28:15 PM »
I don't have a major problem with this. But I think her apology is FAR superior to dem leadership's.

Offline K-S-U-Wildcats!

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Re: Who is brave enough to be honest about Israel and the Democrat Party?
« Reply #40 on: February 11, 2019, 05:45:02 PM »
Anybody mention yet that Ilhan Omar (D) likely married her brother?

Is anybody going to mention a baseless claim lacking any supporting evidence?  Yes.  A resident Trumper reliably will.

Luckily sys, rusty, and chingon have driven this to a rational conversation and moved it past ksuw's wack job conspiracies and dax's hypocrisy.

In 2002, Omar became engaged to Ahmed Hirsi. The couple applied for a marriage license, but the application was not finalized. The couple had two children together before supposedly separating in 2008. Ilhan described Hirsi as her “cultural husband” and “father of my children.”

In 2009, Omar married Ahmed Nur Said Elmi, a British citizen. In 2011, she and Elmi separated and she “reconciled” with Hirsi. She and Hirsi had a third child in 2012. In 2017, she and Elmi were legally divorced, and in 2018, she and Hirsi were legally married.

So she started off with Hirsi, had kids with him, then “separated” from him to marry Elmi, then eventually reconciled with Hirsi before eventually divorcing Elmi.

So who is this Elmi dude? (He’s her brother). Well, Ilhan says her father is “Nur Said Elmi Mohamed.” Hey, that’s a weird coincidence - Ahmed’s “last name” is Nur Said Elmi! This follows Somali naming conventions. In a 2013 Instagram post, Elmi referred  to Ilhan’s daughters as his “nieces.” That’s really strange thing to say for a dude who isn’t her brother (he is).

Ilhan Omar’s response to all this is “these are disgusting lies.”

The media’s investigation has, naturally, been: “she says these are lies, so good enough for us.”

So in addition to being a dumbass and an anti-Semite, Ilhan Omar committed immigration fraud by marrying her brother. That’s Ilhan Omar (D) - newly minted U.S. Congresswoman!

I've said it before and I'll say it again, K-State fans could have beheaded the entire KU team at midcourt, and K-State fans would be celebrating it this morning.  They are the ISIS of Big 12 fanbases.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Who is brave enough to be honest about Israel and the Democrat Party?
« Reply #41 on: February 11, 2019, 06:30:31 PM »
This is a very similar argument that pro NRA people make.

and they're right about that too.  politicians aren't afraid of nra money, they're afraid of nra voters.

Distinction without a difference. The NRA is a powerful voice that many people rally behind. If there were no NRA tomorrow the pro gun NRA supporters would still exist but I assure you there would be sensible gun legislation within two years of the lobby going tits up.

Offline sys

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Re: Who is brave enough to be honest about Israel and the Democrat Party?
« Reply #42 on: February 11, 2019, 06:42:53 PM »
Distinction without a difference. The NRA is a powerful voice that many people rally behind. If there were no NRA tomorrow the pro gun NRA supporters would still exist but I assure you there would be sensible gun legislation within two years of the lobby going tits up.

i think it matters quite a bit.  when people talk about money influencing politics, it is usually with the intimation that money should not influence politics - frequently with the idea that it is illegitimate or anti-democratic for politicians to have been influenced by donors and that there is a lack of popular support or legitimate basis for a politician to have held whatever positions were claimed to have been influenced.

whereas, a group of citizens banding together to argue for their shared interests and collectively persuading politicians that they should adopt the positions advocated by the group is kinda the way democracy is supposed to work.  politicians representing the interests of their constituents.
we understand it better now that the american century is over and some of us sound more and more like serbs.

Offline sys

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Re: Who is brave enough to be honest about Israel and the Democrat Party?
« Reply #43 on: February 11, 2019, 06:44:04 PM »
i'm not sure i'm persuaded by the author's thesis, but i liked reading it.

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/tomgara/lol-everything-matters
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Offline chum1

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Re: Who is brave enough to be honest about Israel and the Democrat Party?
« Reply #44 on: February 11, 2019, 07:10:47 PM »
I don't have a major problem with this. But I think her own apology is FAR superior to dem leadership's.

Forgot my link


Offline chum1

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Re: Who is brave enough to be honest about Israel and the Democrat Party?
« Reply #45 on: February 11, 2019, 07:24:14 PM »
i'm not sure i'm persuaded by the author's thesis, but i liked reading it.

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/tomgara/lol-everything-matters

It's not correct to say that Trump is a complete failure. But I agree with the gist that there appears to be a dilemma between acting morally and playing to win.

Offline gatoveintisiete

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Re: Who is brave enough to be honest about Israel and the Democrat Party?
« Reply #46 on: February 11, 2019, 07:27:42 PM »
tried to summon the courage all day, but alas, not brave enough  :frown:
it’s not like I’m tired of WINNING, but dude, let me catch my breath.

Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Who is brave enough to be honest about Israel and the Democrat Party?
« Reply #47 on: February 11, 2019, 10:16:06 PM »
Distinction without a difference. The NRA is a powerful voice that many people rally behind. If there were no NRA tomorrow the pro gun NRA supporters would still exist but I assure you there would be sensible gun legislation within two years of the lobby going tits up.

i think it matters quite a bit.  when people talk about money influencing politics, it is usually with the intimation that money should not influence politics - frequently with the idea that it is illegitimate or anti-democratic for politicians to have been influenced by donors and that there is a lack of popular support or legitimate basis for a politician to have held whatever positions were claimed to have been influenced.

whereas, a group of citizens banding together to argue for their shared interests and collectively persuading politicians that they should adopt the positions advocated by the group is kinda the way democracy is supposed to work.  politicians representing the interests of their constituents.

How do you explain pharma? Our national policies on pharmaceuticals are completely antithetical to the interests and desires of the electorate, yet they are allowed free reign in this country. And of course them, along with another universally panned industry, insurance, are the largest lobbies in the country.

Everyone loves teachers and agree that education is important. The NEA has no where close to the influence that the NRA or AIPAC has.

Offline sys

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Re: Who is brave enough to be honest about Israel and the Democrat Party?
« Reply #48 on: February 11, 2019, 10:35:28 PM »
How do you explain pharma? Our national policies on pharmaceuticals are completely antithetical to the interests and desires of the electorate, yet they are allowed free reign in this country. And of course them, along with another universally panned industry, insurance, are the largest lobbies in the country.

i share the view that the big pharma lobby influences policy to their benefit.  i didn't know the insurance industry was disliked.  i like insurance.
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Offline MakeItRain

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Re: Who is brave enough to be honest about Israel and the Democrat Party?
« Reply #49 on: February 11, 2019, 11:36:47 PM »
How do you explain pharma? Our national policies on pharmaceuticals are completely antithetical to the interests and desires of the electorate, yet they are allowed free reign in this country. And of course them, along with another universally panned industry, insurance, are the largest lobbies in the country.

i share the view that the big pharma lobby influences policy to their benefit.  i didn't know the insurance industry was disliked.  i like insurance.

So pharma's money is capable of influencing but the gun lobby and the pro Zionist lobbies are not? How is that line drawn?

No one likes paying thousands of dollars for health insurance to get the opportunity to pay thousands of dollars more for health care and essential medications.