Armenia

[Kat Kid]

Obviously Ukraine is the main event, but it is worth noting the happenings in Armenia with Azerbaijani forces attacking in September and many reports of atrocities being committed.

A lot of the Ukraine stuff has centered around the first principles involved. Some have said that bloodying Putin or Russia is a fringe benefit but even most of those posters have still placed defending Ukraine from an illegal invasion and the Ukrainian people’s right to self-determination as central to their justifications.

I think to varying degrees there has been a lack of clash in the arguments or at least a lack of a shared prism through which to speak about the conflict as nic, Dax and I view the conflict through realpolitik and most of the rest are viewing it through idealistic or first principles (although I think this is shifting as anger at Russia grows and the second principle of punishing Russia and strengthening NATO/US Influence gains traction as a justification/aim)

There is already a thread to discuss all that but let’s take a look at another conflict and see how this might be interpreted.

Armenia is a small, democratic, nation that is being attacked and having territory taken by Azerbaijan, a country 3x its size, with an authoritarian government.

The rhetoric is stunningly similar to Putin from Azerbaijan

“On 13 April 2021, Azerbaijan's president Ilham Aliyev made irredentist claims over Armenia's capital Yerevan, Zangezur (Syunik), and Sevan (Gegharkunik), declaring that they are "historical lands" of Azerbaijan.[46][47] In a statement in April 2021, he said that if Armenia would not agree to provide a corridor from Nakhchivan to western Azerbaijan through Armenia's Syunik Province, then Azerbaijan would establish it through the use of force, claiming that Azerbaijani people would return to what he described as "West Zangazur"

US Hawks have long supported Azerbaijan because they hold out hope that they can use the Azeri for foment ethnic conflict in Iran’s north, Israel is playing the same game. Armenia and Azerbaijan are both former USSR members and have chosen different paths. Armenia has stayed neutral in the Ukraine conflict with Azerbaijan condemning and hoping for more US support. As per usual, this “support” is mostly sending weapons and saying good luck and then when atrocities happen as a result, not acknowledging the role the US has played.

Now I am not offering an equivalency here as the numbers of people involved are much lower and the stakes of the whole conflict don’t involve nuclear weapons or one of the biggest countries on earth, but it is worth considering why Biden keeps funding Azerbaijan when there are so many parallels to the Ukraine conflict.





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[Rage Against the McKee]

I agree that we shouldn't fund Azerbaijan.

[sonofdaxjones]

The #neocons in charge love their perpetual war.

The GAO has also found that State has not properly recorded US support of Azerbaijan, and while State acknowledges they haven't met the standard . . . they still have refused to meet the standard.

Which is on brand for this administration.

It appears that the worthless shell of a human and huge #neocon Blinks is also ignoring the Senate FRC on this matter. Again, absolutely on brand for this administration and the #neocons who run it.

[nicname]

Or Yemen

[BIG APPLE CAT]

Sadly I think one of the issues with these side quests is that they are just peanuts in terms of the overall defense budget spending. It’s an unfortunate reality that your average Joe Taxpayer isn’t going to notice until it’s costing us an armena leg

[sys]

it's weird that the self-professed adherents of realpolitik are so adverse to interfacing with reality.

[Kat Kid]

it's weird that the self-professed adherents of realpolitik are so adverse to interfacing with reality.

I am not an “adherent” to realpolitik, I just believe that is how most countries behave and thus think it is worth thinking about power that way and not just taking everyone at their word that they are promoting democracy or freedom.

[sonofdaxjones]

It’s just sad when @sys pretends to be smart


Goodness

[sonofdaxjones]

it's weird that the self-professed adherents of realpolitik are so adverse to interfacing with reality.

I am not an “adherent” to realpolitik, I just believe that is how most countries behave and thus think it is worth thinking about power that way and not just taking everyone at their word that they are promoting democracy or freedom.

Democracy, freedom, human rights, the 3 catch alls for the #neocons. 

Just keep saying it over and over.

[chum1]

I don't the the "most people" who talk about defending democracy do so altruistically. They're ultimately also thinking about consequences for US democracy down the road. And in so doing they're also being more practical than they may appear.

[sonofdaxjones]

Please outline these “consequences” for our constitutional federal republic.

[Kat Kid]

I don't the the "most people" who talk about defending democracy do so altruistically. They're ultimately also thinking about consequences for US democracy down the road. And in so doing they're also being more practical than they may appear.

So in this case I’ve cited, or in the case of Saudi Arabia or any number of other cases, the argument is that there is another superseding reason that trumps democracy in that specific case and thus democracy is just another possible reason to get involved and not some sort of North Star that guides every foreign policy decision. I think that would be a fair reading, just wondering if that is yours.

[chum1]

I don't the the "most people" who talk about defending democracy do so altruistically. They're ultimately also thinking about consequences for US democracy down the road. And in so doing they're also being more practical than they may appear.

So in this case I’ve cited, or in the case of Saudi Arabia or any number of other cases, the argument is that there is another superseding reason that trumps democracy in that specific case and thus democracy is just another possible reason to get involved and not some sort of North Star that guides every foreign policy decision. I think that would be a fair reading, just wondering if that is yours.

I think there's a distinction to make between the reasons people give for doing things and the reasons for doing them. Especially in politics where you need to express things simply.

I'm skeptical that the US would ever do anything military related where its own perceived self interest wasn't the top priority.

[Fedor]

I don't the the "most people" who talk about defending democracy do so altruistically. They're ultimately also thinking about consequences for US democracy down the road. And in so doing they're also being more practical than they may appear.

So in this case I’ve cited, or in the case of Saudi Arabia or any number of other cases, the argument is that there is another superseding reason that trumps democracy in that specific case and thus democracy is just another possible reason to get involved and not some sort of North Star that guides every foreign policy decision. I think that would be a fair reading, just wondering if that is yours.

I think there's a distinction to make between the reasons people give for doing things and the reasons for doing them. Especially in politics where you need to express things simply.

I'm skeptical that the US would ever do anything military related where its own perceived self interest wasn't the top priority.

The Battle of Mogadishu...?

[Dugout DickStone]

I don't the the "most people" who talk about defending democracy do so altruistically. They're ultimately also thinking about consequences for US democracy down the road. And in so doing they're also being more practical than they may appear.

So in this case I’ve cited, or in the case of Saudi Arabia or any number of other cases, the argument is that there is another superseding reason that trumps democracy in that specific case and thus democracy is just another possible reason to get involved and not some sort of North Star that guides every foreign policy decision. I think that would be a fair reading, just wondering if that is yours.

I think there's a distinction to make between the reasons people give for doing things and the reasons for doing them. Especially in politics where you need to express things simply.

I'm skeptical that the US would ever do anything military related where its own perceived self interest wasn't the top priority.

The Battle of Mogadishu...?

older brother has friends who were there.  Was not in our best interests at all. 

[Fedor]

I don't the the "most people" who talk about defending democracy do so altruistically. They're ultimately also thinking about consequences for US democracy down the road. And in so doing they're also being more practical than they may appear.

So in this case I’ve cited, or in the case of Saudi Arabia or any number of other cases, the argument is that there is another superseding reason that trumps democracy in that specific case and thus democracy is just another possible reason to get involved and not some sort of North Star that guides every foreign policy decision. I think that would be a fair reading, just wondering if that is yours.

I think there's a distinction to make between the reasons people give for doing things and the reasons for doing them. Especially in politics where you need to express things simply.

I'm skeptical that the US would ever do anything military related where its own perceived self interest wasn't the top priority.

The Battle of Mogadishu...?

older brother has friends who were there.  Was not in our best interests at all.

Exactly, what do you say to that, huh?  HUH?! CHUM1??

[passranch]

Sadly I think one of the issues with these side quests is that they are just peanuts in terms of the overall defense budget spending. It’s an unfortunate reality that your average Joe Taxpayer isn’t going to notice until it’s costing us an armena leg

I am saddened that this gem apparently went completely unnoticed.  I wanted to acknowledge you here.

[Pete]

Sadly I think one of the issues with these side quests is that they are just peanuts in terms of the overall defense budget spending. It’s an unfortunate reality that your average Joe Taxpayer isn’t going to notice until it’s costing us an armena leg

I am saddened that this gem apparently went completely unnoticed.  I wanted to acknowledge you here.

Yeah agree